505 réponses à ce sujet

[Vanalia]

I just state that Loghain seems more hated than the other antagonists, even if others did also crimes (and even "just wanting to destroy the world" is important enough, even if he didn't succeed yet!, and even if Anders wanted to free the mages, his actions were irresponsible and led to many casualties), a lot of fans seem to be forgetting easily the crimes of many characters just because at some point these characters were companions/romances/kind with them. I feel that Loghain is not treated fairly compared to other antagonists, that's all.

 

Even the warden makes very controversial decisions (killing one of the two successors to the dwarf throne for example, etc), but the excuse is that the goal was "noble" (unite everyone). Loghain in fact wanted to reach the same result, but "his" controversial choices led to bad results and he failed. I don't deny that he made mistakes, and bad decisions, but the warden had knowledge he didn't have at the time (archdemon, could feel the darkspawn, etc) and had all that was necessary to make a big non-orlesian army to fight the Blight (Loghain would have liked to unite a Fereldan army like this, without the help of the Orlesians, but he didn't have the treaties, so he had to find others ways and it was a lot harder).

 

It's also wrong to say that he didn't try to do anything against the darkspawn, I'm replaying the game right now and everywhere they say that he is asking every Bann and Iarl to give him soldiers in order to recreate a big army to fight the darkspawn. But the soldiers are hard to find and to train/recruit. The problem is also that he is not a good diplomat at all, many nobles thought he wanted the throne for himself, so didn't want to help him. And he speaks angrily with a threatening tone instead of a diplomatic, calm one, so of course it doesn't help either. He's a very bad diplomat and even a worse politican, he doesn't know how to speak to other politicians (while Anora exactly knows how to play that game). He should have let Anora do that kind of things and stay in the shadows, but he made the mistake to think that HE had to do it...

 

And for Ostagar and the orlesians, it was said that the reinforcements would only arrive "in a week", so even if Loghain had accepted, it would have been too late anyway (the darkspawn army was already at the gate of Ostagar the morning after.)

 

But yes he is paranoiac, but he was not "totally" wrong either, the orlesians were also really plotting something (Cailan wanting to divorce with Anora to marry Celene, etc).

 

I'm tired of defending him on every topic (I know he did bad things, but most people want to blame him for even more things than the actual official ones), I understand why his fans left and don't want to post in this forum anymore   (it's not against you sylvanaerie, you're a very friendly person  )

[sylvanaerie]

If it makes you feel any better, I hate DA2 Anders just as much as I do Loghain, so I can't speak for why anyone likes either of them. I can theorize that part of the reason Loghain has less appeal could be that Loghain is built to be antagonistic.  That anyone likes him is a surprise, from my perspective.  Both Anders and Solas are helpful

Spoiler

at least till they turn on you.

 Everything Loghain does is antagonistic, you struggle against him, he tries to thwart your efforts.  Would be a pretty boring game if you just sailed through without any troubles, eh?  He serves a useful function in the narrative, and as an antagonist, he delivers a lot of fun, but I wouldn't say it endears him to me.

 

To their credit, Solas and Anders have some personal charm, and are romanceable, caring and warm characters.  Loghain is initially cold and unapproachable, and if you're one of those players (like me) who lack the drive/desire to dig deeper, he never changes from cold and unapproachable.  Personally, I don't get all these romanticized fanfics and fanarts people have of him.  To me he seems very cold and unlikeable.  Interesting and complex, utterly human, but cold and unlikeable.  

 

I am unsure where you saw additional scenes of him trying to get help with the darkspawn aside from the initial Landsmeet.  All I saw was him demanding troops from the Bannorn at the Landsmeet, right after Ostagar when the Civil war is sparked. And in the scene later, he ignores the darkspawn issue focusing instead on the civil war.  Even Howe was warning him he needed to stop fighting the Bannorn and start addressing the issue of the darkspawn before he lacks the troops to deal with them--the scene Anora asks about getting help from Orlais, and begins to suspect her father wasn't being up front about Cailan's death.  One of the issues the bannorn have with Loghain at the Landsmeet later in game, is his lack of attention to the Blight overrunning the country.  Of course, it's difficult to fight a war on 2 different fronts, but the war with his countrymen was a war he never should have been fighting in the first place.  He should have had Anora dealing with nobility and let her deal with Orlais.  He sucks at diplomacy, but that's what she's good at. 

 

Loghain had no idea what Cailan was planning with Celene either at Ostagar or later, but he still refuses to ask for help.  Had he known about Cailan's plans, then I could see some logic to it besides rampant paranoia, but since he didn't, it just comes off as paranoid.  Even an idiot can be right once in a while, but it doesn't change the fact that he's still an idiot.

 

Also, like I pointed out, Anders and Solas have their very, very vocal fanclub.  Loghain has his fans too, but after arguing over the same arguments for the past 6 years, I imagine a lot of them are kind of tired of defending him and/or aren't as much of a presence on the boards anymore.  I really don't know why they seem so silent, you'd have to ask one of them.

[Ghost Gal]

Well, according to everything to hear when you play DA:O, Loghain did not just do "one" heroic thing 30 years ago and then stopped. He's well-known for having won a lot of battles since (including battles against darkspawn before Ostagar), reconstructing the country, etc. He didn't retire in a cave for 30 years just after the battle of river Dane, you know. He worked all his life for his country.

 

And then promptly betrayed it and handed it over to the darkspawn on a silver platter.

 

Saving the country years ago doesn't cancel out nearly destroying it today. By that logic, Howe should be completely excused for slaughtering the Cousland family because he fought alongside and saved them during the Ferelden Revolution.

 

And about the elves? do you think HE put the elves in the alienage, HE is responsible for them still being servants, mistreated, living like miserables beings in the mud? Cailan and Maric did not do better, it seems, to treat the elves equally with humans. Loghain is not responsible for Denerim. NO ONE did ANYTHING for the elves, despite the fact that Maric was saying to Katriel that he wanted to make the life of elves better. The elves 30 years after are still considered like lower beings by everyone, in Denerim, in Kirkwall, everywhere.

 

For someone who threw a raging b*tch fit at the Landsmeet about the so-called "slavery" (it wasn't, it was political and military occupation) he suffered under Orlais, Loghain is remarkably blase about selling his own people into actual slavery to fill his own coffers to maintain his own political power so he could keep fighting a civil war instead of turning his attention toward the darkspawn actually eating his country.

 

The other nobles didn't help elves either, but at least they don't play the "I was a slave" card every chance they get and then turn around and sell their own people into slavery and then get p!ssy with an elf for daring to stop their slave-trading operation or (Maker forbid) not to instantly get over it. Every time I think of Loghain sneering at an Elven Warden for daring to hold him accountable for slave-trading ("Honestly, elf, do you think that among all my crimes is the one that keeps me up at night? It's a bit egotistical of you, don't you think?"), I see red.

 

For how much Loghain goes on and on and on and on and on about the "slavery" he suffered and the freedom he wants for his country, you would think he of all people would have some empathy or understanding for the elves' plight, yet ironically he hurts them worse than any other royal when they're under his reign. (At least Cailan had the excuse of being a sheltered doof who immediately promised to look into it when told how bad it really was in the alienage. And at least Anora had the good graces to help you put a stop to her father's slave-trading and promise to help an Elven Warden's people once the Blight is over, and she does do it--even though she puts in the barest minimum effort, she does do it.)

 

So please, stop putting all the blame on Loghain, like if he was the only one responsible.

 

I'm not. I'm holding him accountable for his own actions, crimes, and hypocrisies, instead of trying to excuse and pass the blame for his actions onto everyone but him.

[Mike3207]

Well, as far as people defending Loghain for my part it's that my interest in Origins waxes and wanes, and my interest in Loghain follows that pattern. I don't think if you look at in in an objective light you can blame Loghain too much for Ostagar, as he catches a lot of blame that would rightly fall on Duncan and Cailan if they were still alive. He's the surviving leader, so of course everything that went wrong at Ostagar is his fault(rolls eyes).

 

The things after Ostagar-I can see from his viewpoint that he was trying to win an unwanted civil war. It's like what the Warden said about Howe in Awakening to Nathaniel-If he'd won, he'd be the hero now. If Loghain had won, he'd be considered a Ferelden hero. Since he lost, he's lucky his family doesn't have to pay for the bullets used to execute him, or the Ferelden equivalent. That's what happens to those who lose civil wars.

 

Even selling off the elves-let's look at it if Loghain had won. Anora would have issued a statement that the disease had killed off most of the elves, and the darkspawn stood a good chance of killing off any survivors. Sure, you don't know they're headed for denerim, but it would have been a leading target for an attack. I don't think anyone would have gainsayed that, and if they did it would have looked like sour grapes. That's the difference between winning and losing the civil war. Everything would have turned out different.

[Vanalia]

Yes, if Loghain had won the war, the people would all be "I'm glad he sold these elves to hire mercenarie, it saved many lives and the alienage was destroyed anyway", etc. Once again, a whole country enslaved by Orlais (it's a picture, Fereldans were not sold into slavery but treated like dogs by Orlesians), it's not the same as selling "some elves", Loghain did not sell all the Fereldans, or all the elves, but some of them. Yeaah I know, it's not nice, but it's not like selling all the people. I already explained a few pages ago, I won't repeat myself, everything I had to say was said.

 

 

Loghain had no idea what Cailan was planning with Celene either at Ostagar or later, but he still refuses to ask for help.  Had he known about Cailan's plans, then I could see some logic to it besides rampant paranoia, but since he didn't, it just comes off as paranoid.  Even an idiot can be right once in a while, but it doesn't change the fact that he's still an idiot.

 

Also, like I pointed out, Anders and Solas have their very, very vocal fanclub.  Loghain has his fans too, but after arguing over the same arguments for the past 6 years, I imagine a lot of them are kind of tired of defending him and/or aren't as much of a presence on the boards anymore.  I really don't know why they seem so silent, you'd have to ask one of them.

The letters found in Cailan's chest were just the ultimate proof, Loghain had suspicions before and saw Cailan talk fondly about Orlesians, and many things could have raised his doubts about a plot with Orlais. Everything doesn't come from his mind.

And the fans of Loghain I could talk too are just avoiding with care Bioware's forums, they say they spent their time being harassed by haters every time they dare say one thing positive about Loghain, or are tired of narrow-minded people who blame him for absolutly everything, including things there's no proof he has done. And I can understand them. I even could see that on the old Loghain topic, fans tired of having the same debates over and over with old or new haters coming just to shout "he's a monster! he's a traitor!! I was glad to chop his head off haha".

 

Loghain becomes more friendly after you recruit him and if you're not keeping treating him like a monster, and that's logical. I don't see why he would be friendly with a warden who spit at his face and insults him all the time.

And he is far more friendly in DA:I, too, as the Inquisitor is not a hater.

[sylvanaerie]

Yes, if Loghain had won the war, the people would all be "I'm glad he sold these elves to hire mercenarie, it saved many lives and the alienage was destroyed anyway", etc. Once again, a whole country enslaved by Orlais (it's a picture, Fereldans were not sold into slavery but treated like dogs by Orlesians), it's not the same as selling "some elves", Loghain did not sell all the Fereldans, or all the elves, but some of them. Yeaah I know, it's not nice, but it's not like selling all the people. I already explained a few pages ago, I won't repeat myself, everything I had to say was said.

 

The letters found in Cailan's chest were just the ultimate proof, Loghain had suspicions before and saw Cailan talk fondly about Orlesians, and many things could have raised his doubts about a plot with Orlais. Everything doesn't come from his mind.

And the fans of Loghain I could talk too are just avoiding with care Bioware's forums, they say they spent their time being harassed by haters every time they dare say one thing positive about Loghain, or are tired of narrow-minded people who blame him for absolutly everything, including things there's no proof he has done. And I can understand them. I even could see that on the old Loghain topic, fans tired of having the same debates over and over with old or new haters coming just to shout "he's a monster! he's a traitor!! I was glad to chop his head off haha".

 

Loghain becomes more friendly after you recruit him and if you're not keeping treating him like a monster, and that's logical. I don't see why he would be friendly with a warden who spit at his face and insults him all the time.

And he is far more friendly in DA:I, too, as the Inquisitor is not a hater.

 

Suspicions are one thing, but just as I won't hang Loghain for something he didn't actually do (like colluding with Howe to massacre the Couslands--that's a stretch if ever I saw one) I won't hang another character without proof.  The letters aren't proof, they just point a finger.  It's all open to interpretation (though I remember reading on the boards that Eamon was talking Cailan into dropping Anora).  I never interpreted it as Cailan dropping Anora.  In fact, I saw it as Eamon encouraging it, and Cailan resisting it--and why he refused to have Eamon there in Ostagar in the first place.  

 

*Edit* Cailan isn't talking fondly about the Orlesians, he talks fondly about the Wardens (which are one and the same in Loghain's mind).  He brings up the Orlesians to manipulate Loghain into pushing for the battle.  Another strike against Cailan IMO.  Ostagar wasn't all Loghain's fault, but being he's the only alive scapegoat and he was Cailan's general, he bears the brunt of the blame from Fereldans.

 

Everything is open to interpretation.

 

Loghain argues with Cailan prior to the battle and Cailan's man thinks it may have been about the Queen, though the subject of the argument isn't discussed.  In the original concepts Loghain was supposed to know about Cailan's plans to drop Anora and had planned Ostagar to get Cailan out of the way.  Whether to kill him or just politically castrate him, I don't know, but those plans were ultimately scrapped.  Some snippets of the old dialogue still made it's way past the continuity team.  Enough to leave his behavior and motivations in the grey area of interpretation of the player.

 

I'm sorry you feel the need to defend him against other players on the boards, but just take it as a compliment to your favorite character.  The worst ones are those who never stir up any controversy at all, and are so bland they are immediately forgettable.  Even after all these years, he still raises people's ire (sometimes I can barely control my rage over him to be polite). He's that well done.  I'm sure his writer and all those devs at Bioware see it as a compliment that players both passionately love or hate him.

 

Whatever else Anders, Solas and Loghain have done, they've also captured the imaginations of those who both love and revile them.

[Jaison1986]

 

I'm sorry you feel the need to defend him against other players on the boards, but just take it as a compliment to your favorite character.  The worst ones are those who never stir up any controversy at all, and are so bland they are immediately forgettable.  Even after all these years, he still raises people's ire (sometimes I can barely control my rage over him to be polite). He's that well done.  I'm sure his writer and all those devs at Bioware see it as a compliment that players both passionately love or hate him.

 

Whatever else Anders, Solas and Loghain have done, they've also captured the imaginations of those who both love and revile them.

 

You gotta be ***** kidding me. That is not a compliment at all. At least those characters that don't call attention are left alone and the fans don't have to hear any crap. The writers might like that the fandom feels that way, but most of his fans sure as hell don't.

[sylvanaerie]

You gotta be ***** kidding me. That is not a compliment at all. At least those characters that don't call attention are left alone and the fans don't have to hear any crap. The writers might like that the fandom feels that way, but most of his fans sure as hell don't.

 

And if he were boring, his fans would have no one to discuss him with at all after all these years.  There would be no threads at all on him. *Edit* Do you see any threads on Teagan?  Specifically Teagan of Origins, not the new and not so improved Teagan of Trespasser.  No, while loved he's not that controversial a character, sparking debate and emotions after 6 years of time. **Edit again** Or Howe for that matter--someone written to be a black and white vile person.  Even the thread about Howe has led to a Loghain debate instead.  The fact that it seems every thread on the boards eventually lead to Loghain should point out how he's well written, controversial, not all black and white mustache twirling villain.  

 

I have just as many issues trying to defend Alistair from those who hate him.  Who think his only traits are 'whiny man-child' when there are other complexities there who make him flawed and human.  There are things about him that irked me as a player too, though I mostly liked him, it irked me when players just see a snippet of characterization and based their entire perceptions on one moment of the game.  *Edit* and distancing myself with learning more about him through his writing is how I dealt with that annoyance.  I can see they are just seeing the surface and not delving deeper into the characterization.  It's their interpretation--and I don't have to agree with it.  Just as Vanalia doesn't have to agree with Loghain's haters.  She sees a side of him I can't.

 

Loghain fans in general see a side of Loghain I just lack the ability to see.  I can't even pretend I do, but I can see it's because he's so well written, his actions are open to interpretation.  That's complexity, that's very realistic and human.  Even if I don't like the character I like the way he was written.

 

I'm not saying his detractors are complimenting the poster, I'm saying its a compliment to how well done the character is, and in a way, it kind of proves her point that there's more to Loghain than just the surface.  Some people don't even try to see past that--and I'm guilty of having blinders on with a lot of his actions too--but I'm trying to see other sides of the story because his writing is very complex, very human.  He's flawed, he makes mistakes, but it makes him realistic, which I think is part of why he's so loved and hated and so passionately debated over.  That's just my opinion on it, though I can't presume to debate another person's reasoning, only my own.

 

Unfortunately, there is a gulf so wide between his fans and his detractors, that few have the desire to try to see both sides--again something I've been guilty of in the past, but I'm trying.  And I'm trying to be civil about it.  

[Darkly Tranquil]

You gotta be ***** kidding me. That is not a compliment at all. At least those characters that don't call attention are left alone and the fans don't have to hear any crap. The writers might like that the fandom feels that way, but most of his fans sure as hell don't.

The writers wrote Loghain to be a conflicting and contentious character. He was meant to inspire passionate hatred or defence, depending on how you interpret his motives and actions. That fact that people are still arguing about him is a testament to the job the writers did.

[Monica21]

The writers wrote Loghain to be a conflicting and contentious character. He was meant to inspire passionate hatred or defence, depending on how you interpret his motives and actions. That fact that people are still arguing about him is a testament to the job the writers did.

I actually think that Loghain turned out to be a far more interesting character than the writers intended. Much of it is what sylvanaerie said, that there were so many swings in the original plot (Celene was supposed to be in Denerim, the player was supposed to know that Loghain did not intend to kill Eamon, etc.) that some of the dialogue just got left in. What happened is that it left a lot of assumptions on the part of players and while that can be a good thing, it truly does get tiresome for those of us who defend his actions and character.

Sylvanaerie and I have had our moments on this forum just as I have with other forum members and I'm sure she's had with others. It's really not all that pleasant to argue with someone you don't even know when the entire basis of your disagreement is a video game character, however well-drawn he might appear to be. I'm at the point where I'll point out obvious flaws in logic, but that's about it. My opinion on Loghain is settled and is unlikely to change, as is sylvanaerie's. We are diametrically opposed in our opinion, but I'd rather prefer to say nothing than to restart an argument that will never end.

Suffice to say that I like Loghain as a character. My canon Warden spares him and marries Alistair to Anora. I see his flaws and his strengths. I do not believe his flaws to be as great as others might and see his strengths not as something that inhibit him. (I do not believe he is paranoid, after all, his fears about Orlais turned out to be true, did they not?) My own opinion is that his only misstep was in dealing with the aftermath of Ostagar, but that is a politician's realm and Loghain is no politician. This is all perhaps an easier opinion for me to come by as my Warden is a Cousland, so I can headcanon that she knew Loghain well before Ostagar and had heard her father tell stories that flattered the Hero of River Dane. That is, of course, a very different perspective than someone whose Warden is an elf. I don't think an elf's perspective is unjust, I simply disagree with it. And that's why, for the most part, I tend to stay out of Loghain threads these days.

[MerAnne]

ONLY within the context of what is available as knowledge within DAO....

 

Loghain is painted in a very bad light.

 

-His retreat happened to be at the exact time that the signal beacon was lit.  Was he committing treason by deserting his King and going against the battle plan?  Or was he executing a strategic retreat and saving some of the army rather than facing annihilation of the entire Ferelden army?  Did he order the retreat to save the army to fight the darkspawn or to fight the Orlesians?  The timing that Bioware devs gave him was exceptionally poor.  He doesn't happen to notice that he needs to retreat until the exact moment the signal to attack was given?  It seems that he would have signaled the retreat before the signal was given and he doesn't give any explanation to his second in command. 

-Why did he order Arl Eamon to be poisoned?  This was even harder to understand.  Any claim that Arl Eamon might have had on the throne was tenuous at best. 

-Why did he say that he would side with the mages?  We've already seen that Loghain is not the 'warm and fuzzy' kind of guy that would think that the mages deserved their freedom.

-Why did he do nothing about Arl Howe killing the Cousland family?  The only other Teyrn in Ferelden and the family that is possibly in line for the throne if Cailan & Anora do not have an heir.  Bad, BAADDD, NAUGHTY Rendon Howe, don't do that again or I'll give you even more power than being my only adviser.

-Why was the group in Lothering looking to capture Grey Wardens for ???  treason?  Really, capturing (or killing) two low level GWs?  That is like blaming a foot soldier for the decisions of a General.

-Selling elves into slavery.  Something like that takes time to set up and the Alienage is closed as soon as the GW goes to Denerim.  Maybe the Tevinter mages teleported to Denerim when they found out that SOMEONE was FINALLY willing to sell slaves.  Are only Elves slaves in Tevinter?  Why not sell a few of the poor?  Or some of the refugees?  Or would that have been too much?  Of course, Elves aren't HUMAN so it might have been pure prejudice.

 

And 'just because Loghain is paranoid doesn't mean that the Orlesians aren't out to get him'

 

All that said.  Loghain could have been hoping that the tide of battle would turn and the beacon was just the 'very last moment' that he could order the retreat.  He doesn't owe his second in command an explanation.  He might have ordered the poisoning of Arl Eamon the same way that he ordered Zevran to kill the Grey Wardens - a nod of the head.  Someone might have heard General Loghain swearing about 'traitorous Grey Wardens' and ordered men to stay in Lothering to capture an of those traitors. etc etc etc

 

Loghain could be an INCREDIBLE general and and truly horrible politician blinded by his paranoia about an Orlesian invasion.

 

I'm prepared to believe that some of Loghain's actions, potentially the majority of his actions, were done for the right reasons (the retreat at Ostagar) or on the BAD advice of Arl Howe (Zevran, imprisoning Anora, etc etc) .

 

I am not prepared to believe that his motives were as pure as the driven snow.  Loghain's actions and his failure to take action (he could have told Howe that he wanted the GWs captured, not killed) proved that Loghain was not entirely 'good'. 

 

I'm not prepared to believe that Riordon offering to make Loghain a GW was anything more than a Bioware plot device (Greater than 50% mortality rate in DAO and the player's GW is still in charge).  In 'real life', the father of the Queen would probably have been sent into a comfortable exile.  Being the one who orders the death of the Queen's father is NOT a good way to have  a long & successful life.

 

Loghain is written to be a real person and he is one of the better written DAO NPCs.  He is not entirely evil and some of his actions are open to conjecture.  

[Aren]

Yes I prefer the way he is now. 

 

I would not understand why someone would willingly work hand in hand with the darkspawn, anyway. 

the Architect is the only one,for what i remember.

[Aren]

Correct. If you take Loghain to Ostagar, he expresses surprise and outrage at Cailan's plans. He is particularly enraged by the familiar tone of Cailan's correspondence with Celene.

It's also worth remembering that originally Celene was meant to appear in Origins in some capacity, but that her appearance was cut. It seems like a lot of things got changed in a big way during development.

I would not be surprised if at one stage Loghain was going to be scheming to betray Cailan, arranging with Howe to eliminate the Couslands (because if Cailan died without an heir, the crown would likely have gone to Bryce Cousland over Anora), and ordering the poisoning of Arl Eamon to eliminate any remaining threat to Anora's claim to the throne. Obviously things changed during development and those plans got dropped, but you can still see bits and pieces of these plot threads in the game.

Which is something that you can't prove,ops i still remember Loghain suggesting to Cailan to remain with him at Ostagar,which blows down this conspiracy theory into a massive bottomless hole.

speculations not supported by definitive proofs aren't the truth.

[Vanalia]

At least Sylvanaerie is calm and polite and trying to understand how Loghain fans could feel, if all the people who hated Loghain could be diplomatic like her, it would be a nice thing.

 

The haters I'm tired of are the ones who just insult Loghain without really thinking further and throwing the same insults all the time, over and over.

 

I have to admit that in the game, they do everything to make the players hate him (for people who just play without really thinking too much), in a very "cliché" way. For example: after the "battle plan" scene in Ostagar, before the battle, Cailan is talking about glory and Loghain turns his back, looks at the camera and says something like "Yes, Cailan, all of us will have some glory..."  > people could totally interpret that as the "villain pose of the bad guy who is plotting something".

 

Same thing when he orders the retreat: he sees the beacon and at the same time decides to retreat. It looks like it's only to make the player angry "hey, remember all you've done to light that beacon? well, Loghain provokes you and leaves just when you light it, haha". Same thing when he gives order to Lady Cauthrien to make the army retreat, she is supposed to be the loyal right-hand of Loghain following him everywhere, but suddenly, she doesn't seem to agree? she looks furious against him.

 

All these little things are very "cliché of the bad guy" and so, when you don't think too much about why he could do that, it just seems plain evil. It influences a lot the players, I remember that at my first playthrough (where I killed Loghain), because all of these villain-cliché things, I was 100% sure he was really the bad guy doing all this only for bad reasons.

 

That's why it's very hard to defend him, as Bioware clearly wanted to leave the impression that he was evil, even if it's just because of "camera zoom on his face" "pose of the bad guy" stuff... it clearly doesn't help the character.

 

@Sylvanaerie: did you read "The Stolen throne"? it helps understanding the character a lot. I know a lot of people who started liking him after reading that book.

[sylvanaerie]

No, I never read Stolen Throne.  I actually only really started to appreciate his writing after

Spoiler

seeing his cameo in Inquisition.  I started off prepared to hate him there too, but it surprised me, and I actually struggled with the decision to leave him behind in the Fade.  Made me wish I had played that game with one of my 'throwaway Hawke's' instead of William, one of my favorites, so I could at least see what Loghain said after escaping the Fade.  Probably the same thing Stroud/Alistair say, but still...After my discussion with you, I'm toying with a playthrough with Loghain and one of my throwaway Hawkes just to get him out of the Fade at the end.  Old soldier, he survives the Civil War, Blight, Joining, Orlais (and it's stinky cheeses), Corypheus' plot and the Fade to boot!    

 

I really love/appreciate fantastic character evolution in characters and Loghain, Morrigan and Cullen all have had wonderful character evolution throughout the series.  It made me look deeper into Loghain's characterization/motives/writing below the surface of what's presented in the game.

 

Certainly, I have to say I agree.  He was written to be antagonistic, and many of his decisions and motions are ill-timed as you point out.  I am quite happy to cast him in the role of villain because hating on the archdemon is boring.  For me, it would be like hating a hurricane for blowing down your house.  Loghain is at least human in his motives, his desire to protect his daughter and save his country.  He is a realistic character.

 

And thanks for understanding and being patient with me.  I have not always been as diplomatic/polite in my discussions of him.    I have not always done things I'm proud of on the boards here in discussion about him.  You have brought out the best in me, Vanalia.  You're polite, friendly, open-minded and have helped me see things that deepen my understanding of him, giving me much 'food for thought' and I wanted to say thank you for your discussions with me here on the boards.  It's been informative and friendly and I can't say that's been too common in my experience with this particular character.

[MerAnne]

This is a pet peeve of mine. 

 

When role playing, I play what my character (the grey warden) knows.  My GW has not played DA2, DAI, read any of the comic books,  read any of the books, or read any of the fan fiction .  I grant that some of my knowledge is player knowledge (you can't set up an arrangement to sell slaves overnight; Loghain didn't really hire Zevran, that was Howe; etc.) based on personal knowledge or cutscenes that my GW didn't see.  In the game, DAO, Loghain IS a villain. I'm willing to concede that there are things that the GW doesn't know, but I accept no justification for Loghain's actions that take place outside of DAO.

 

I don't 'hate' Logain.  In DAO, he was cast as a villain, that was his role and someone at Bioware did a great job writing it.  I'm willing to concede that his actions were not as cut-n-dried as they appeared. I can appreciate that he grew through the series, but this discussion thread is in DAO, Loghain, not DAI Loghain.

 

Alistair hadn't read any of the comic books, books, fanfictions, or played the other games.  From his viewpoint, Loghain allowed by his half brother and Duncan to die at Ostagar, he sent assassins after Alistair and the other GW, he had Arl Eamon poisoned, etc.  From Alistair's point of view without any knowledge outside of DAO, of COURSE Alistair was upset that Riordan wanted to reward Loghain by making him a GW.  Alistair wanted Loghain killed (Alistair might have relented if there was an option for Exile instead of death).

 

Specifically in DAO, I understand why Alistair would want to kill him.

[Vanalia]

@Sylvanaerie: thank you   the book "Stolen throne" is very interesting, you might understand better why Loghain hates Orlais so much. He went through so many things, after reading it you understand why he doesn't want to have anything to do with Orlais. And you can see that he is not power-hungry and never wanted to be the center of attention.

 

If you keep him alive in DA:I, there is that woman working for the Inquisition supplies who is a fan of him and worked under his command, and when you tell her that Loghain is at Skyhold, she can go talk to him. When she comes back she tells you that he talked to her, was very kind and even remembered her name 10 years after. That was sweet. At least there is someone who likes him in Skyhold

 

@MerAnne: Yes, i understand too why Alistair would want him dead. But I liked Loghain before reading the Stolen throne, you know, and he doesn't appear in my DA:I playthrough (I've only seen scenes on youtube), so I was not influenced by that either. I didn't like him the first time I played DAO, it's only recently that I tried no know more about him and discovered he had more than met the eye.

 

In my new playthrough, my Warden is an Amell who has read books about the legendary Hero of River Dane, so he was like a Hero for her (yes, when you can't go out of your tower, you read books and dream of the outside world  ), so when she could meet him in person before the battle of Ostagar, she asked to talk to him (he was in his tent) and he actually came and talked, almost friendly, he even said that she was wiser than he thought and that she must be someone special and skilled. She was honored that her Hero gave some minutes of his time to talk to her.

 

Then there was that retreat at Ostagar and my warden is mostly confused, not angry. She doesn't understand why he did that, why he says it's the fault of the Wardens, and she want to go to Denerim to see him in person and have explanations.

 

I avoid all the lines like "Loghain is a traitor" or "I want help against Loghain", I pick only the neutral lines of a person who doesn't understand and wants to know more. Surely, she thinks, the noble and honorable hero everyone talked about couldn't suddenly change like that and become evil.

 

 

I just find sad that someone who gave so much for his country, because he made some mistakes and lost the civil war, had to be executed like a dog at the Landsmeet. I always wanted to exile him or put him in prison (before), it would have been a better option. When you want to keep your romance with Alistair, it's a pity that beheading Loghain is the ONLY option.

[sylvanaerie]

Knowing what has happened historically (or even in modern times in some parts of the world) in occupied countries, I don't need to read The Stolen Throne to appreciate his hatred of Orlais.  From my understanding, his mother was raped and murdered in front of him and I think chevaliers cut down his mabari?  Or tried to take her from him?  I am uncertain, it's a banter with him if Dog is in your group as well.  Let me know what he says?  

 

LOL It just gets old listening to him on my Ferelden Circle mage calling her "Orlesian" when she's not.

 

I too, wish there were an option to take him to the tower for disposition later.  For one, I hate executing him right in front of his child.  For another I think it would have even been a cool scene, going into Fort Drakon, finding Loghain and other guards/prisoners fighting darkspawn.  Since you can't summon your armies there, he offers to stay behind to cover your advance and you leave him (to possibly die fighting darkspawn).  He still dies, but it's much less ignominious than execution on the Landsmeet floor or alienating Alistair (who could potentially be your LI) by recruiting him and feeding him to the Archdemon.

 

*Edit* Inquisition spoiler under tag:

Spoiler

OMG I am totally talking to Threnn after doing Crestwood next time on my Loghain warden run.  I didn't get it the first time because I didn't know how to save everyone in Haven.

[Vanalia]

But it is still a nice option to let us recruit him in our team. It's just sad that the two options are so extreme that you have to lose Alistair OR make a bloody barbaric execution.

 

That's why so many players, even the ones who don't hate Loghain, choose to kill him because they don't want to see Alistair leave the team.

 

The book explains more than just "why Loghain hates Orlesians", he evolves a lot in the book, too, his relationship with Maric as well, and all the events that led to their final victory, all the pain and the efforts to take back their country, the betrayals, etc.

 

Yes the Orlesians took his (female) dog to make it breed with other ones, and gave it back a long time later, mistreated, with wounds, all famished and traumatized, and the poor dog died a few days after on Loghain's lap. But it's not the worst thing they did.

[sylvanaerie]

Early concepts of the game had both him and Alistair in the warden's company together.  Those resources still exist in the toolset.  And Loghain was originally intended to be recruited earlier than at the Landsmeet near the end since he has a scene with Maric and young Cailan (or their spirits or demons masquerading as them) in the fade in the Circle Tower in the toolset as well.  I've seen both snippets on Utube, yanked from the toolset and posted by talented modders.  I believe there is also a head preset of Maric to be found in the toolset as well (from that Fade scene).  Would have been interesting to have seen that in the game as well, I think.

 

I'd try to read Stolen Throne, but I bought the Calling and it's still sitting on my bookshelf, only partially read.  While I enjoy Gaider's game writing, I don't find his writing style interesting in regards to books.  I really enjoy the story, concepts and overall plot, but slogging through the narrative is too difficult for me.  I lose patience fast.

 

*Edit* this is also the reason I haven't read the comics or the filler book with Rhys/Evangeline/Cole that takes place between the events of DA2 and Inquisition.

[Vanalia]

It's better to read "The Stole throne" before "The Calling". I didn't read any other DA book than the Stolen throne anyway, I did it for Loghain ^^

 

I've seen the Fade scene on youtube but in the comment it was written that it was not official at all and not taken from what was made for the game, so I don't really understand.

 

It would have been nice to have Loghain earlier in the game.

[Darkly Tranquil]

The book explains more than just "why Loghain hates Orlesians", he evolves a lot in the book, too, his relationship with Maric as well, and all the events that led to their final victory, all the pain and the efforts to take back their country, the betrayals, etc.

That's down to personal interpretation. The Stolen Throne didn't make me feel more sympathetic to Loghain, it merely explained why he is such a miserable single-minded sod. If anything, it simply reinforced what an ass he is. For me, the most damning indictment against Loghain is Flemeth's warning to Maric about Loghain's betrayals which pretty much sums the man up; an arrogant, deluded, and ultimately selfish person who veils his true motivations in a cloak of patriotism.

[sylvanaerie]

Well, the biggest reason I can't read it is I just can't.  I don't like Gaider's book writing style.  He has a wonderful imagination, the ability to write believable and lovable characters (some of my favorites were penned by him).  I just can't get past his narrative style to enjoy the book.

 

I'm the same way about Frank Herbert and Tolkien.  The concepts of their narrative are unique.  Both have a rich and engaging universe, filled with history and culture, all springing from their imagination.  They have interesting and engaging characters.  Tolkien could be said to have fathered the concepts we view RPG and book elves and dwarves with today (though Bioware is kind of breaking the mold with their versions).  Both authors however have a plodding writing style that off puts me.  I just can't slog through the narrative to enjoy the books.  I managed to get through the first hundred pages of "Dune" and wanted to pull my hair out.  

 

I have to also enjoy the style of writing or I just can't read the book.

[Vanalia]

@DarklyTranquil: well I don't see what Flemeth was talking about (except Ostagar maybe?) because it was totally untrue. "he will betray you, each time worse than the time before": eeer what? (it just sounds like "hey, we have to make a reference to the video game here, even if it has NO link with this story") explain when he betrayed Maric? he spends all the book rushing to his help, saving his life, helping him, without him Maric couldn't have done what he has done. At absolutly no moment he betrayed Maric. He had a little moment of romance with Rowan, but Maric wasn't even with her at the time and had another lover, so it's not betrayal either.

 

Maric even made him promise to choose the life of the soldiers next time instead of the life of the king, if it means saving the army, what Loghain did at Ostagar.

 

So it's funny how haters like to interpret things just because it sounds the way they like.

 

Loghain could save the world and be a superhero, you would still say "he is an as*hole for saving all the se people, looks, he looks grumpy, it means he's a monster". 

 

Hiding his true motivation under patriotism? ok, you didn't understand anything to the character (and to the book, it was an easy read but you didn't understand anything to it either), we better stop talking now. Of course Loghain wants to rule the world and become the next archedemon, how could I forget that? 

[MerAnne]

@MerAnne: Yes, i understand too why Alistair would want him dead. But I liked Loghain before reading the Stolen throne, you know, and he doesn't appear in my DA:I playthrough (I've only seen scenes on youtube), so I was not influenced by that either. I didn't like him the first time I played DAO, it's only recently that I tried no know more about him and discovered he had more than met the eye.

 

In my new playthrough, my Warden is an Amell who has read books about the legendary Hero of River Dane, so he was like a Hero for her (yes, when you can't go out of your tower, you read books and dream of the outside world  ), so when she could meet him in person before the battle of Ostagar, she asked to talk to him (he was in his tent) and he actually came and talked, almost friendly, he even said that she was wiser than he thought and that she must be someone special and skilled. She was honored that her Hero gave some minutes of his time to talk to her.

 

Then there was that retreat at Ostagar and my warden is mostly confused, not angry. She doesn't understand why he did that, why he says it's the fault of the Wardens, and she want to go to Denerim to see him in person and have explanations.

That could work for a Cousland GW, for a while.  My sticking point as a Cousland was always Arl Howe.  Howe clearly planned the assassination of the Cousland family, this wasn't an attack of opportunity.  Loghain could not POSSIBLY have missed the fact that one of the only two Teyrns in Ferelden has been killed.  Yet his only actions against Howe are..... to reward him.

 

Hero worship never got my Cousland GW past the murder of her father, mother, sister-in-law, and nephew.  Not to mention everyone else in the castle.   My Cousland GW takes that kind of thing very badly.  If Loghain had punished Howe, my Cousland might have settled for an explanation.  My Cousland's love for little Oren with his sword of Truthiness and Dire Bunnies was stronger than any hero worship for the man (Loghain) who rewarded Oren's murderer (Howe).

 

My Dwarf GWs would have been more likely to spare Loghain because Orzammar politics make one expect treachery and murder.