Well, my Amell has nothing against Loghain anyway (and we won't reopen the debate of Loghain not having ordered the slaughter of the Cousland family, it was Howe).
Dwarves at least understand the value of a warrior and find a use even to the disgraced heroes. Pragmatic people.
I could imagine any origin sparing Loghain except elves. Everyone has their rationalizations to make it happen. Mine was a Cousland boy so traumatized by the deaths of his family he couldn't do that to Anora. I had to play on my own emotions to make it happen since I hate killing him right in front of her. He didn't even want the kingship. He stayed a Grey Warden and ran off with Leliana (or died to the AD--I did all three scenarios that run to see new scenes). So sparing him had nothing to do with sucking up to the queen as a future husband, or even for Loghain's sake. He just wanted to live what life he had left with the woman he loved, and be left alone.
*Edit* I don't believe Loghain was in cahoots to kill Bryce. People assume Bryce would have opposed Loghain, but I think Bryce would have been more practical. He would have seen the true threat to be the darkspawn and would have backed up Loghain (at least during the crisis). He may have proven troublesome afterward, but Loghain would have dealt with him then. There were other ways to deal with his enemies than random slaughter. That's Howe's style, not Loghain's. Loghain's killing is more like a knife, not a chainsaw.
Loghain didn't want the throne forever. He wanted to protect his daughter, to save Ferelden. Howe killing the Cousland's only complicated his task. But by then, they were dead, and he needed Howe's help. So not bringing him to task when he already had the teyrnir under his (Howe) control was just political expediency. He may not have agreed with him, but we never got any scenes of any confrontation with Howe concerning it.
Sometimes morals get tossed out a window when it's politically expedient.
@DarklyTranquil: well I don't see what Flemeth was talking about (except Ostagar maybe?) because it was totally untrue. "he will betray you, each time worse than the time before": eeer what? (it just sounds like "hey, we have to make a reference to the video game here, even if it has NO link with this story") explain when he betrayed Maric? he spends all the book rushing to his help, saving his life, helping him, without him Maric couldn't have done what he has done. At absolutly no moment he betrayed Maric. He had a little moment of romance with Rowan, but Maric wasn't even with her at the time and had another lover, so it's not betrayal either.
Maric even made him promise to choose the life of the soldiers next time instead of the life of the king, if it means saving the army, what Loghain did at Ostagar.
So it's funny how haters like to interpret things just because it sounds the way they like.
Loghain could save the world and be a superhero, you would still say "he is an as*hole for saving all the se people, looks, he looks grumpy, it means he's a monster".
Hiding his true motivation under patriotism? ok, you didn't understand anything to the character (and to the book, it was an easy read but you didn't understand anything to it either), we better stop talking now. Of course Loghain wants to rule the world and become the next archedemon, how could I forget that?
I cannot disagree more with you about the Stolen Throne. It's very fresh in my mind because I just finished it. *spoilers ahead about the book*
Katriel was responsible of the death of all their army, and Rowan's father, and months of work and training. She is a traitor, she is a bi*tch and she totally knows it. I can't understand why everyone blames Loghain for "betraying Cailan" etc, but still say "Katriel was such a good girl, yes she betrayed everyone and was directly responsible of the death of 99% of the rebel army, but look, she tries to help them afterwards by showing the deeproads to them."
Come on, she was just selfish because she realized how bad she was, how manipulative she has been, and she helped afterwards only because she developed feelings for Maric, not for the good of everyone.
Loghain never manipulated Maric about Katriel, she showed him that she betrayed them, and it was totally right, and even after Maric killed her, and Maric discovered she finally didn't want to come back to her previous master, he didn't think "OMG, if I knew I wouldn't have killed her." No, that's too easy, her crimes are still there, and Maric knew that she changed her mind and helped them afterwards but still, knowing that, he killed her. And he did the right thing, he should not let his personal feelings interfere with that: would you really think that he could have made queen an elf who destroyed all his army because she was a spy and traitor, and then "oh I change my mind, can you forget everything I've done, darling? hihi".
No sorry, it doesn't work like that.
And NOWHERE Loghain said or thought that Katriel should be punished "because she was Orlesian", no, she is punished "because she betrayed them and led to death thousands of their people". She was an enemy. It was war. She was a spy, and it is how spies should be treated in time of war, no less.
And how could you blame him for giving Rowan a bit of confort? she was crying, in despair, while Maric (she was not in couple with him yet, because he even thought he would make Katriel queen and not Rowan!) was having sex with his elf just a few meters away. Why don't you blame Maric, then, for "betraying" Rowan? why do you just blame Loghain for trying to confort the woman he loved and who was REJECTED by Maric? even at the end, Loghain sacrificed his feelings for the good of the country, knowing that Rowan should be queen (and she thought that it was the right choice, too).
So no, I don't see any betrayal from Loghain there. The only one who betrayed was Katriel, how can you be so blind not to see that? or are you just blinded by your hate for Loghain?
Loghain betrays Maric by manipulating him into killing Katriel (out of hate for everything Orleisan), messing with Rowan (who was Maric's betrothed, Katriel aside), abandoning Cailan, and attempting to kill Alistair.
Oh dear. I can let a lot of opinions about Loghain go but not this one. This is a terrible misreading of The Stolen Throne, as Vanalia has described. "Katriel aside"? Katriel's entire purpose was to seduce Maric and spy on the rebel army. Yes, Maric was betrothed to Rowan and yet a young elfin lass caught his eye. Then he betrayed Rowan, if one can do so without actually dating or being wed. Maric was the first to act. Loghain had the enormous difficulty of being in love with Rowan and watching his best friend hurt the woman he loved. Loghain would never have touched Rowan if it weren't for her encouragement.
Loghain and Rowan were in the unfortunate position of both being in love with each other but not able to have each other. They both sacrificed each other for the sake of Ferelden. It's the most tragic and heartbreaking love story in all of Dragon Age, and to somehow read it as Loghain betraying Maric is beyond my understanding. Maric betrayed both Rowan, Loghain, and would have betrayed Ferelden by marrying Katriel had he had his way. This is an instance where Loghain is the sole voice of reason.
For me Loghain is defined entirely by his pathological hatred of Orlais. It motivates his paranoia and drives nearly everything he does through The Stolen Throne and Origins. He claims that everything he does is for love of Ferelden, but he repeatedly harms Ferelden in order to strike out at anything he perceives to be Orlesian, because that obsession blinds him to all else.
And oh yes. How I do hate it when people are blinded by hatred of troops forcibly occupying their country. And then those troops rape and kill mothers in front of children, steal mabaris for breeding purposes and return then half-starved and near death. Not to mention raising taxes on farmers to the point where they cannot pay said taxes expressly for the purpose of kicking farmers off their land so they can give that land to Orlesian nobles.
Yes, irrational to the last.
If it's not clear, your opinion is, at best, ill-informed.
If they're currently occupying the country then the warden and Alistair won't be in the crap cuz the Orlesian Wardens wouldn't need Loggy's permission.
Timelines, honey. We're talking about The Stolen Throne. Events that take place 30 years before the Blight. But thanks for your input.
I cannot disagree more with you about the Stolen Throne. It's very fresh in my mind because I just finished it. *spoilers ahead about the book*
Katriel was responsible of the death of all their army, and Rowan's father, and months of work and training. She is a traitor, she is a bi*tch and she totally knows it. I can't understand why everyone blames Loghain for "betraying Cailan" etc, but still say "Katriel was such a good girl, yes she betrayed everyone and was directly responsible of the death of 99% of the rebel army, but look, she tries to help them afterwards by showing the deeproads to them."
Come on, she was just selfish because she realized how bad she was, how manipulative she has been, and she helped afterwards only because she developed feelings for Maric, not for the good of everyone.
Loghain never manipulated Maric about Katriel, she showed him that she betrayed them, and it was totally right, and even after Maric killed her, and Maric discovered she finally didn't want to come back to her previous master, he didn't think "OMG, if I knew I wouldn't have killed her." No, that's too easy, her crimes are still there, and Maric knew that she changed her mind and helped them afterwards but still, knowing that, he killed her. And he did the right thing, he should not let his personal feelings interfere with that: would you really think that he could have made queen an elf who destroyed all his army because she was a spy and traitor, and then "oh I change my mind, can you forget everything I've done, darling? hihi".
No sorry, it doesn't work like that.
And NOWHERE Loghain said or thought that Katriel should be punished "because she was Orlesian", no, she is punished "because she betrayed them and led to death thousands of their people". She was an enemy. It was war. She was a spy, and it is how spies should be treated in time of war, no less.
And how could you blame him for giving Rowan a bit of confort? she was crying, in despair, while Maric (she was not in couple with him yet, because he even thought he would make Katriel queen and not Rowan!) was having sex with his elf just a few meters away. Why don't you blame Maric, then, for "betraying" Rowan? why do you just blame Loghain for trying to confort the woman he loved and who was REJECTED by Maric? even at the end, Loghain sacrificed his feelings for the good of the country, knowing that Rowan should be queen (and she thought that it was the right choice, too).
So no, I don't see any betrayal from Loghain there. The only one who betrayed was Katriel, how can you be so blind not to see that? or are you just blinded by your hate for Loghain?
Oh I thought Darkly Tranquil was talking about the Stolen Thone AND Origins where he does not see the immediate threat right under his nose.Timelines, honey. We're talking about The Stolen Throne. Events that take place 30 years before the Blight. But thanks for your input.
First off, there's no betrayal on Rowan. This promise was made by their parents at their craddles who both sides are probably dead. Second, there was never love lost between Maric and Rowan I actually don't begrudge Loghain and Rowan falling for each other but thought that it was quite sweet. It was all about obligation for the both of them. Third, I agree Katriel was a traitor and a lying murderer that needed to die much like Loghain. Think it's bad that the warden could kill him in front of his loved one? Well, iirc ( i could be wrong) Loghain made it pretty damned sure Maric killed the one he loved by ommiting some information.
I would listen to the Stolen throne again, but it's on my server which is currently offline til new isp comes and do their thing.
There is a big difference there. Loghain's tactical retreat at Ostagar is seen as a betrayal by some people, and it's totally subjective. He did not infiltrate the ranks of the army in order to make everyone killed (what Katriel did). Loghain did retreat to save the soldiers he had because he evaluated the battle as being lost because the darkspawn army was much, much bigger than expected.
It's not like being a spy and having the mission to destroy a whole army, seduce the king in order to kill him, etc. Katriel did a true betrayal because it was her mission.
It's not like if Loghain was for example working for the archdemon and wanted all humans dead.
Loghain is responsible for having taken the wrong decisions even if his goal was noble, he was wrong to think he was able to fix everything just by himself. But he is not responsible of betrayal (to me). So it's not like Katriel. She led all these people to death "on purpose".
Who's talking about Ostagar? He became a betrayer the moment he started selling the elves to slavery. They are just a part of Ferelden that he supposedly claims to love....There is a big difference there. Loghain's tactical retreat at Ostagar is seen as a betrayal by some people, and it's totally subjective. He did not infiltrate the ranks of the army in order to make everyone killed (what Katriel did). Loghain did retreat to save the soldiers he had because he evaluated the battle as being lost because the darkspawn army was much, much bigger than expected.
It's not like being a spy and having the mission to destroy a whole army, seduce the king in order to kill him, etc. Katriel did a true betrayal because it was her mission.
It's not like if Loghain was for example working for the archdemon and wanted all humans dead.
. It's her job to screw other countries for her people. While Loghain screwed his people for...err... his country? Money? Tevinter ? Himself? All of the above? Noooo idea.
Oh yeah so it's not on his job list, so it's evil ?
But if it was "his job" to sell elves, if he was an official slaver, it would be ok then, just like it seems ok to your eyes that Katriel betrays people because "it's her job"? strange logic.
And yes selling elves is bad but it's not a "betrayal", he didn't do it to earn money to buy himself a new horse. He needed the money to hire mercenaries etc to defend Ferelden, basically he decided to sacrifice a few to save a majority of people. He didn't do it because he didn't like long ears or because he thought it was fun. You say it yourself, you have no idea, and without any real proof, you keep blaming him without understanding the real reason of his actions. It's not a cartoon for 3 years-old children with bad guys who "do bad things because they just love doing bad things, mwhahah"... 
I can't even debate Stolen Throne. I only know peripherally what happened in it. I'll have to defer to ya'll since ya'll are more familiar with the events in the books. Still can't read them though.
I don't even know where to start with this post. Ofc Loghain did it for money. And no reason in that world could ever justify selling people to slavery or worse. We've seen how Caladius could readily offer power to the warden on the cost of all the lives of the elves in the cage.Oh yeah so it's not on his job list, so it's evil ?
But if it was "his job" to sell elves, if he was an official slaver, it would be ok then, just like it seems ok to your eyes that Katriel betrays people because "it's her job"? strange logic.
And yes selling elves is bad but it's not a "betrayal", he didn't do it to earn money to buy himself a new horse. He needed the money to hire mercenaries etc to defend Ferelden, basically he decided to sacrifice a few to save a majority of people. He didn't do it because he didn't like long ears or because he thought it was fun. You say it yourself, you have no idea, and without any real proof, you keep blaming him without understanding the real reason of his actions. It's not a cartoon for 3 years-old children with bad guys who "do bad things because they just love doing bad things, mwhahah"...
And yes selling elves is bad but it's not a "betrayal", he didn't do it to earn money to buy himself a new horse. He needed the money to hire mercenaries etc to defend Ferelden, basically he decided to sacrifice a few to save a majority of people. He didn't do it because he didn't like long ears or because he thought it was fun. You say it yourself, you have no idea, and without any real proof, you keep blaming him without understanding the real reason of his actions. It's not a cartoon for 3 years-old children with bad guys who "do bad things because they just love doing bad things, mwhahah"...
And oh yes. How I do hate it when people are blinded by hatred of troops forcibly occupying their country. And then those troops rape and kill mothers in front of children, steal mabaris for breeding purposes and return then half-starved and near death. Not to mention raising taxes on farmers to the point where they cannot pay said taxes expressly for the purpose of kicking farmers off their land so they can give that land to Orlesian nobles.
Yes, irrational to the last.
If it's not clear, your opinion is, at best, ill-informed.
What you're not getting is that his intentions don't ultimately matter. No-one is saying he did it for the lulz, we know he did it to hire mercenaries to fight the Bannorn, who he alienated with his illegal seizure of power, and the Orlesians he was sure were coming. The point is that it was morally wrong, illegal under Ferelden law, and largely unnecessary; it was simply an easy way out when it came up. The problem was that Loghain was too pig headed, too set on his path, and too sure of his own righteousness to ever consider other solutions. If Loghain actually had any respect for Ferelden, its laws, its government and traditions, he wouldn't have had a civil war on his hands and the Bannorn probably would have willingly provided the troops he wanted. Of course, he would have pointed most of them at the Orlesian border, not at the Darkspawn, where they were needed.I'm not saying that Loghain is evil, I'm saying that he's paranoid, deluded, arrogant and misguided. If he was the "cartoon villain" you are accusing me of saying he is, he would be boring, but he's much more interesting than that because his villainous acts are motivated by desire to "save" his country from its hated enemy, and its that desire (misguided as it is) that leads him to do all the things he does. Loghain means well and thinks he is doing the right thing, but all he ends up doing is harming the very thing he is supposed to be trying to save, and its all because he is blinded by his obsession with the threat of Orlais. Loghain's hatred Orlais is understandable and justified (which I noted above - I said he hated the Orlesians with good cause), but its irrational because he's sees it everywhere and it dominates his thinking even when its not relevant. He's risks Ferelden being overrun by the Darkspawn while focusing on Orlais rather than actually dealing with the immediate threat on their doorstep, because Orlais is his obsession, and it is that obsession that is irrational.As I said, what makes Loghain interesting is his flaws. He is undoubtedly deeply traumatised by what he experienced in his childhood/youth at the hands of the Orlesians and it had distorted him and become an obsession that dominates him completely and leads him down a path that is ultimately destructive to all he claims to love; hence why I say Loghain is defined by his hate of Orlais above all else.
Not only did he sell Elves into slavery. He also let the Blight spread because of his paranoia of the Orelsian Wardens and Chevaliers. According to The World of Thedas volume 1 there lived a 1 million people in Ferelden at that time. How many died because he stopped the Wardens at the Border and tried to kill all the Wardens at Ostagar. How can you defend a man that has the blood of thousands on his hands, even if its not directly it is caused by him, but by his actions. I do like the Loghain redemption story, but losing a good man like Alistair over it? I can't see what argument can be made for it.
And all these things made him the best and deepest antagonist of the series. Coryfish? Solas? Meredith? Does not even come close imho.
I like Solas more than Loghain, atleast after Trespasser. They are both great though.
Saying that selling elves is a "betrayal" is playing with words. Yes, it's a bad thing to sell slaves, we agree on this. Ok. I wouldn't call that a betrayal, he never swear at any moment that he would never do such a thing if it was necessary for the country.
What is wrong is to say that Loghain betrayed Maric, but we already talked about that and Monica21 explained it very well.
Katriel never seemed like a patriot to me, in the books she never thinks about Orlais like this, it's more "she was a bard, it was why she was paid". It had nothing to do with defending her country or anything, it was just for money because she was a bard who got a mission ordered by someone, like a mercenary. She is not some official secret agent working for the crown. Even if she was, what she did was mass murder "on purpose", while Loghain's actions which led to the death or enslaving of some people would be called "collateral damage". He never really wanted this, he felt "obliged to" because he thought it was the best solution at that moment, even if it was a radical solution.
And the civil war is also because he is not a politician, eveyone is not skilled for that, he failed in convincing the others to work with him. It's not like doing in on purpose, you can't accuse him of not having all the qualities in the world. It's like blaming a man who would fail to protect his wife in an attack because "it's his fault, he's a bad warrior". Well, Loghain failed to unite everyone because he's bad at politics. And Howe was the worst adviser ever, but the only one on his side, he didn't have a lot of choice around him (and Anora was a bit discredited because people thought that she plotted something with her father and everyone knew that Cailan was cheating on her).
Fate is cruel with Loghain, and people as well, because when his decisions lead to victory, he's called a hero, but when his decisions turn to have a bad result (not on purpose, but because losing in a war happens), he's disgraced, etc. If his plans had worked he would be acclaimed, but he failed, and it's what happens when you fail in a war (civil war or not), history is not kind with the loser. The sacrifices are accepted by the people only when the result turns out to be good. He took a risk and it failed, and now everyone is spitting on him. Nothing says that any other Iarl or noble would have done better, or would have had a better result.
(sorry if some of my sentences seem awkward, english is not my native language, but I'm trying)
I saw some yt on him and I gotta say it all just seem mindless while with Loghain, there seem to be a method to his madness in which you can love or hate him for without being romancable.Not only did he sell Elves into slavery. He also let the Blight spread because of his paranoia of the Orelsian Wardens and Chevaliers. According to The World of Thedas volume 1 there lived a 1 million people in Ferelden at that time. How many died because he stopped the Wardens at the Border and tried to kill all the Wardens at Ostagar. How can you defend a man that has the blood of thousands on his hands, even if its not directly it is caused by him, but by his actions. I do like the Loghain redemption story, but losing a good man like Alistair over it? I can't see what argument can be made for it.
I like Solas more than Loghain, atleast after Trespasser. They are both great though.
A country is also made up with the people living in it right? CE are a part of those people of Ferelden. Somehow I highly doubt Loghain is trying what's necessary for a patch of dirt.Ok. I wouldn't call that a betrayal, he never swear at any moment that he would never do such a thing if it was necessary for the country.
Maybe Solas has more fangirls (despite what he does) because he is romancable, and not Loghain. In fact, I'm sure of it. A romancable character (even antagonist) gets +500% of fangirls than a non-romancable one 
He also let the Blight spread because of his paranoia of the Orelsian Wardens and Chevaliers.
Loghain had a group of ancient warriors telling him that it was a blight. He'd seen evidence of the taint, but that's all. The last blight was 400 years prior. You have an option in the Cousland origin to say, "The Wardens defeated the darkspawn" implying that there was never going to be another blight. It was a very common belief that there were so many darkspawn killed during the last blight that they were all over. Loghain has no evidence that it's a blight. They haven't even seen the Archdemon yet.
So you've got a group of people who basically tricked your king (Maric) into following them into the Deep Roads. They lied about their purpose and had a deal with the Architect. They almost got Maric killed.
Loghain is looking with a pretty skeptical eye at a group of people no one understands and who don't share information, and who have a proven track record of not telling the truth and trying to overthrow the Ferelden king.
I wouldn't believe the Wardens either.
Maybe Solas has more fangirls (despite what he does) because he is romancable, and not Loghain. In fact, I'm sure of it. A romancable character (even antagonist) gets +500% of fangirls than a non-romancable one
ummm yeaaa. See my problem with this is: Both have done wrong. Using spoiler tags, I don't know who has read on the boards or played Inquisition/Trespasser yet.
But vilifying Solas to justify Loghain's actions as 'so much much more acceptable because he's romanceable to some people'--which is how this is coming off--seems more to me like a lot of sour grapes than actual grief. Hell, I can understand frustration trying to defend your favorite character from a lot of people who hate him, and I figure that's where a lot of that is coming from. It's why I've been trying very, very hard to stay polite and calm in our discussions, because I think you're a very nice person, Vanalia and I have really been enjoying our discussion. That you actually call them 'fangirls' demonstrates a level of contempt unworthy of you.
I'm speaking from personal experience, please don't fall into that trap. I'm guilty of doing it myself and getting into some pretty nasty discussions on the boards because of it. If need be, take a step back and a deep breath, go outside and enjoy the fresh air for a bit. Remember, not everyone hates Loghain. Even some of those who do hate him, understand there's more to his motives than just 'evil for the lulz'. Darkly doesn't say he thinks Loghain is doing all this for the lulz, but he is theorizing motivations/emotions that come pretty close to the Loghain I perceive in the game. I don't think he's doing all this 'just for the lulz', and--though I can't speak for him--I don't believe Darkly is either.
I can't speak for anything in Stolen Throne. At best my knowledge of that is second hand or what I've read of the synopsis of characters on the DAwiki--which is, again, second hand. I can't argue for or against Loghain based on it, but I can say that a few of the people I've read on the BSN who have read TST have said they came away from it disliking Loghain (as a person) even more. And others have said they came away with a better understanding of him. It's all up to interpretation of the player/reader.
Again, I apologize for any spoilers in my post, I tried to tag anything that looks spoilery for me.
*Edit* That fanfic I posted the link to by Cadsuane on FF.Net. Although it's from the perspective of an AU Alistair, the Loghain in the story is completely believable and in character to me and very likeable. This comes from someone who dislikes him. Now, grant you, it's a fanfic and not written by any of the Bioware crew, but Cadsuane is an excellent author and has a really good grasp of characterization. If you haven't yet, read that story, and remember it was recommended to you by a Loghain-hater who actually wished she could have seen more of that Loghain in the game. And I kind of envy you that you did.
Again the Solas Romance fits, because it is race and gender gated. He will respect every Inquisitor that treats him well and asks questions about what once was, but only one of the People could turn those feelings into a deeper affection. And its not a happy romance outcome anyway, which again fits. Sylvanaerie said the rest quite nicely.
Oh, I never used the word "fangirls" in a bad way, I even consider myself like a fangirl (of Cullen, even of Loghain), for me it's a fan who is a girl and likes/loves the character and/or its romance. I'm not using that word in the "superficial giggling girl" way.
I'm really the last one who would make fun of female gamers being crazy about their favorite character, as I started my own "Loghain appreciation thread", I post in the Alistair one, and I'm part of the Cullenites.
I was just looking at the whole situation and mass behavior of fans, and I just realized that having a romance helps the character to be liked (at least by the people who try and like their romance). I guess it's because you see another, sweeter side of the character.
It's not about being bitter or anything, of course Loghain could not have been romancable, being able to have him in the team is already a miracle. I was just saying that a romance can show another side of a character and maybe help people discover their good side. Even if it's a drama romance.
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