505 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Oh, I never used the word "fangirls" in a bad way, I even consider myself like a fangirl (of Cullen, even of Loghain), for me it's a fan who is a girl and likes/loves the character and/or its romance. I'm not using that word in the "superficial giggling girl" way.

 

I'm really the last one who would make fun of female gamers being crazy about their favorite character, as I started my own "Loghain appreciation thread", I post in the Alistair one, and I'm part of the Cullenites.

 

I was just looking at the whole situation and mass behavior of fans, and I just realized that having a romance helps the character to be liked (at least by the people who try and like their romance). I guess it's because you see another, sweeter side of the character.

 

It's not about being bitter or anything, of course Loghain could not have been romancable, being able to have him in the team is already a miracle. I was just saying that a romance can show another side of a character and maybe help people discover their good side. Even if it's a drama romance.

 

Okay thanks for clarifying that.  I was afraid you were moving into flame war-banning territory and I have been enjoying our talks way too much! 

[Vanalia]

Haha I thought it was pretty obvious that I was a fangirl, too. Drawing fanarts, posting links of fanfictions and asking for them, etc ^^

[Monica21]

Loghain's hatred Orlais is understandable and justified (which I noted above - I said he hated the Orlesians with good cause), but its irrational because he's sees it everywhere and it dominates his thinking even when its not relevant. He's risks Ferelden being overrun by the Darkspawn while focusing on Orlais rather than actually dealing with the immediate threat on their doorstep, because Orlais is his obsession, and it is that obsession that is irrational.

As I said, what makes Loghain interesting is his flaws. He is undoubtedly deeply traumatised by what he experienced in his childhood/youth at the hands of the Orlesians and it had distorted him and become an obsession that dominates him completely and leads him down a path that is ultimately destructive to all he claims to love; hence why I say Loghain is defined by his hate of Orlais above all else.

 

Orlesian boots are on Ferelden's border. It's not just Orlesian Wardens that want to come in, it's Orlesian Chevaliers. This is a problem, if only because of what happened the last time Chevaliers were in Ferelden. It dominates his thinking because it should. Because he is the commander of Ferelden's armies and one of the most politically influential people in the country, even before Ostagar. He is being rational, and Return to Ostagar proves that he was right.

[Illegitimus]

Orlesian boots are on Ferelden's border. It's not just Orlesian Wardens that want to come in, it's Orlesian Chevaliers. This is a problem, if only because of what happened the last time Chevaliers were in Ferelden. It dominates his thinking because it should. Because he is the commander of Ferelden's armies and one of the most politically influential people in the country, even before Ostagar. He is being rational, and Return to Ostagar proves that he was right.

 

No it didn't.  There was reason to worry about Orlesian troops. but nothing that happened in Return to Ostagar proved he was right.  No, that Celine writes in a flirtatious manner does not prove he was right.  

[thesuperdarkone2]

People should also remember that the last time Orlais sent troops with the Wardens to combat a blight, they pretty much conquered the place once the Wardens were done. Take a look at what happened during the Third Blight:

 

The Blight occurred in Nevarra. Orlais and Tevinter sent forces but only after the Wardens and Nevarrans suffered many loses. Once the blight was over, all those Orlesian and Tevinter troops that remained proceeded to attack the weakened Nevarra and annexed the territory. Orlais annexed Nevarra and Tevinter annexed Hunter Fell.

 

 

See, there is precident for the same thing happening.

[Monica21]

No it didn't. There was reason to worry about Orlesian troops. but nothing that happened in Return to Ostagar proved he was right. No, that Celine writes in a flirtatious manner does not prove he was right.

Cailan, at the urging of Arl Eamon, had planned to "put Anora aside" and marry Celene.

[Xetykins]

Just looked through Ostagar letters on wiki and haven't found anything that suggests that Cailan planned to leave Anora. Only Eamon's urging and Celene's flirty letters.

[Monica21]

Probably because Cailan mailed his replies so you don't read them. I mean, you know, because that's how people reply.

And, from Celene, "Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden." This is the letter after Eamon's and the codex notes its informal tone, in contrast to her first letter. The implication is really pretty obvious.

[Xetykins]

Permanent alliance could be anything though. Just because Eamon wants it does not mean Cailan does too. It seems Eamon has been badgering him about this matter for a while, to the point of his begging in this letter. Seems he still did not get through Cailan at all by Ostagar. Thinking about it now, Eamon is really a rat.

[Illegitimus]

Probably because Cailan mailed his replies so you don't read them. I mean, you know, because that's how people reply.

And, from Celene, "Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden." This is the letter after Eamon's and the codex notes its informal tone, in contrast to her first letter. The implication is really pretty obvious.

 

Sure the implication is obvious.  Celine is proposing a dynastic alliance.  But it's also clear that Cailan hasn't in fact said "yes".  Assume for a moment that Cailan has in fact not the slightest intent of putting Anora aside no matter what Eamon suggests or Celine proposes.  Well he's hardly going to tell Celine that when he may very well need her troops.  G

[Vanalia]

I just killed Eamon's only heir, I wonder if it changes his plans a lot. He wanted his claws on Cailan, then on Alistair, I really don't like Eamon. He is so manipulative, and tries to show like "the good guy"...

 

He is Rowan's little brother, isn't it? he looks so old compared to Loghain (who is supposed to be older than him, right?), and I don't think it's only because of his illness.

 

*good choice of picture* look!

 

Loghain, who is older than Eamon:

[sylvanaerie]

I just killed Eamon's only heir, I wonder if it changes his plans a lot. He wanted his claws on Cailan, then on Alistair, I really don't like Eamon. He is so manipulative, and tries to show like "the good guy"...

 

He is Rowan's little brother, isn't it? he looks so old compared to Loghain (who is supposed to be older than him, right?), and I don't think it's only because of his illness.

 

*good choice of picture* look!

 

Loghain, who is older than Eamon:

 

The end cards are kind of whacked out.  The only time I offed Connor, at the end Eamon spoke about how Connor was looking at him in a creepy way.  Seriously?  The zombie child was looking at you funny?   And that huge hole in his chest Isolde put there wasn't a tip off?!!  If your end slides don't bug out, it speaks about Eamon and his family one last time.  

 

Eamon looks like hell.  I believe in TST he's 15, which would make him 45 in Origins.  Loghain is 50, so pretty close in age.  I attribute it to the coma/poison aging him, but truthfully, I just think he aged badly.  Look what happens to Teagan in Trespasser. He looks like the misbegotten love child of Rendon Howe and Loghain MacTir.   Maybe the Guerrins are just unfortunate souls who don't age well.

 

Anora looked great in Inquisition and she's more than 40 by then.

[Vanalia]

Loghain looked good in DA:I for a guy of 60 years old. Something in the Mac Tir blood might rejuvenate cells   (and no grey/white hair!)

I love that armor...

[sylvanaerie]

IKR?  I thought his jaw was too square, but for the most part, for a 60 year old dude he aged really well.  I think it's the Mac Tir genes.

[Vanalia]

Yes I think there is a problem with his mouth (too large?) or maybe the jaw. Let's say it could have been better, but in matter of aging, he did good.

 

He has never been strickingly handsome anyway, they could not make him handsome like Cullen or Dorian.

[sjsharp2011]

He's pretty clear about his reasons at the Landsmeet I think. "This man abandoned our brothers and then blamed us for the deed. He hunted us down like animals." 

 

But mostly, yes, he blames him for the death of Duncan and the other wardens by leaving the to die at Ostagar. If he executes him he says it's for Duncan.

yeah I think it's because he views Duncan as like a father figuer and cared for him like one. But then that's based on what Alistair tells us about himself in the story and what I think he's feeling

[JJ Likeaprayer]

Because he considers Duncan as his "father"...you know,grew up with him and trained by him,Duncan is truly the father he never really had. And Loghain's action is mainly the reason Duncan got killed,so...

[Fehria]

But imagine if we had, a scene we come into Ft Drakon, Loghain at the head of a handful of surviving soldiers finishing off a group of darkspawn.  Maybe he's already tainted, maybe he isn't. But he apologizes to the warden for everything he did wrong and swears to hold off any reinforcements coming into the fort for you as long as they can since we can't summon our armies there.  And maybe Alistair can get to make his peace with him too. 

 

He not only gets to be a hero again, but potentially dies as one without having his soul chomped up to shreds and the issue of what to do with him is resolved.  

 

And then right as he's about to hug it out with Alistair, he gets picked up and crushed by an ogre, much like a certain former king. Tragic irony.

[Willowhugger]

There's another answer I think people should note:

Alistair is not playing the Pragmatic Ends Justify the Means Warden. He's playing Star Wars Paragon Warden. Alistair and the Warden are two awesome heroesTM out to save Fereldan.

 

Loghain is the villainTM.

 

He doesn't buy any of the coincidences which make Loghain tragic. No, he's about as tragic as Darth Vader prior to TESB.

 

Hence, why he's so confused and angry you betray him.

[nightscrawl]

I dunno, why does Cousland want to kill Howe?

Because Duncan and the Grey Wardens were the closest thing the unwanted, unloved, unacknowledged bastard who got tossed around like a hot potato had to a family, then Loghain betrayed and murdered them. Then, to add insult to injury, pinned thr blame on the surviving Wardens and hunted you like animals for over a year.

Imagine if the game said you had to let go of your bile toward and spare Howe to stop the Blight. See how quickly you'd just "get over" it.

 

Here's the thing though. It's one thing for Alistair to be completely and utterly pissed, rant, rave, storm off, end your friendship or break the romance. I would accept ALL of those responses. To me, it is completely selfish for him to leave the Grey Wardens over this. No one is asking him to let go of his bile. They are asking him to suck it up to save the effing world. And you know what? Duncan himself would probably not agree with Alistair's decision.

 

So, while I do totally understand his reasons, and appreciate David Gaider's responses in this thread, the ultimate action by Alistair is what I do not agree with. Just because I understand his reasons, doesn't mean I can't also disagree with his choice. People make reluctant or hard choices that go against their own wants all the time, or they don't do something because they realize that it would ultimately have bad consequences. That's part of being an adult.

 

That said, Alistair is 20-years-old, and I think it's important to view the reaction through that lens. People's brains aren't even fully developed until age 25 or so. Also, when the Landsmeet happens, neither of the young Wardens know that a Grey Warden is required to kill the Archdemon. Perhaps if Alistair had known that he might not have left.

 

 

[edit]

I should add that I think it was an interesting decision on DG's part from a character writing standpoint. He has this character with a certain personality, motivations, goals, etc. So when this event happens in the game the character reacts accordingly. When I say I disagree with Alistair's decision, I am speaking directly about the character's choice, in the same way that you can disagree with anyone's choice, and not the game from a meta perspective.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 24 janvier 2016 - 03:27 .

[Elhanan]

Because Loghain was Merric's so-called best friend, and Alistair appears to believe that Loghain caused the death of King Cailen; his own half-brother. Add the supposed betrayal of Eamon, Duncan, and the Wardens, and almost all 'family' ties have been affected by the Regent. IMO, of course....

[Ryzaki]

Yes.  

 

Leliana can be talked into staying as long as you don't take her with you, but the combo of defilement/blood magic in the destruction of the ashes is Wynne's breaking point.  She leaves regardless.

 

Leliana can be intimidated into staying at the ashes. But she has to be hardened.

[Aren]

 I just simply will never respect the person who doesn't own up to the fact that there was an element of selfishness on their own part in betraying Alistair as well. 

David Gaider

 

This was a statement of Gaider from the thread topic about Alistair and i strongly disagree with that.

There is no element of selfishness from the warden part to want to give another chance to Loghain and not kill him in front of all the nobles and his daughter as well as the fact to want to have more GW to fight the darkspawns and the 5th blight as the senior warden with far more experience that Alistair suggested

[nightscrawl]

^ He actually explained it in successive posts in that same thread...

 

Selfish in that you believe your opinion is more important than Alistair's. You may believe what you're doing is for the greater good, but from Alistair's perspective you're allowing Loghain a chance at redemption which Alistair doesn't think he deserves. Alistair believes that sacrificing your life to save Ferelden is a noble deed, and that the Wardens don't need Loghain-- the very man who killed all the other Wardens and put you in this position--to do that.

 

So, you disagree. Alistair refuses to let it end with that, and you override him-- it's going to be what you think and his feelings are irrelevant. Is his response selfish? Even childish? That can be argued, sure, but if you believe your own actions aren't also selfish then I think you're deluding yourself. You made that determination all on your own-- you. Ignoring the wishes of the only other Grey Warden in the room, a man who is supposedly not only your friend and equal but also a man who loves you and trusts you... and assumed you trusted him. Who assumed you felt as he did, and that you agreed with him back when he said "Loghain has to die for what he's done". You may still believe you were right-- the story is written to allow you to think that, and has no clear-cut way out where everybody is made happy-- but believing you were the only arbiter to decide that is indeed selfish of you.

 

Don't like the word 'selfish'? How about 'arrogant'? How about 'self-righteous'? These are not mutually exclusive of people who are heroes or who might also have noble goals. If anything, Loghain is a prime example of someone who can go to their grave thinking they did the right thing even though others readily disagree. Someone can respond to that and go "nope, nope, my Warden was in the right and Alistair was a jerk to disagree with me!" ...and okay! Good for you. I'll still write in my journal about how Alistair clearly wasn't the only jerk in the room.

 

 

I think it depends on one's role-play up to that point, and also how they conduct themselves during the Landsmeet itself. A lot of DG's argument is in response to a known poster, TheButterflyEffect, who REALLY hates Alistair for various reasons. You'll notice that a lot of his response in couched in terms of the romance, so Alistair will feel an additional betrayal by the woman he loves. Also, he is primarily addressing people who are irritated that Alistair argued with them in the first place, as he even admits that "the only thing Alistair does which is unequivocably wrong is when he up and leaves the Wardens once the decision is made."

 

But, boy oh boy, does he launch into full David Gaider mode in that particular series of posts. And you know, that's actually a quality about him that I liked and will miss, and was sad that he rarely posted on the forums after DAI. I don't think that a work has to stand on its own, and that it can be defended. When it comes to these characters, hearing from the person who wrote them can certainly give a different perspective.

[Monica21]

^ He actually explained it in successive posts in that same thread...

 

 

I think it depends on one's role-play up to that point, and also how they conduct themselves during the Landsmeet itself. A lot of DG's argument is in response to a known poster, TheButterflyEffect, who REALLY hates Alistair for various reasons. You'll notice that a lot of his response in couched in terms of the romance, so Alistair will feel an additional betrayal by the woman he loves. Also, he is primarily addressing people who are irritated that Alistair argued with them in the first place, as he even admits that "the only thing Alistair does which is unequivocably wrong is when he up and leaves the Wardens once the decision is made."

 

But, boy oh boy, does he launch into full David Gaider mode in that particular series of posts. And you know, that's actually a quality about him that I liked and will miss, and was sad that he rarely posted on the forums after DAI. I don't think that a work has to stand on its own, and that it can be defended. When it comes to these characters, hearing from the person who wrote them can certainly give a different perspective.

 

Gaider's reply is kind of silly though. You're not "ignoring the opinion of the only other Grey Warden in the room." You're actually only aware that that you can make Loghain a Warden because of that second "other Grey Warden in the room." You know, the one who outranks you both by a lot and has decades of experience as a Warden. Riordan is the one who tells you that Loghain would be a good Warden, and what would be selfish, or self-righteous, or arrogant, is to presume that you know more than that guy and go ahead and kill Loghain anyway. I'm pretty sure that was pointed out to Gaider at some point in that thread.