64 ответов в этой теме

[v0rt3x22]

Does anyone else miss the skill tree of Mass Effect 1?

 

I feel like customization was severely cut in the sequels.

[RedCaesar97]

Nope. I vastly prefer the skill tree in ME2. I am actually So glad they got rid of the ME1 skill tree. 

 

To first-time players, particularly players who have never played an RPG (or pseudo-RPG), the ME1 skill tree is rather quite intimidating. Upon further reflection and playthroughs -- or advanced knowledge -- ME1 skill tree, does not actually provide much customization at all and can actually be rather limiting.

 

I'll break down my thoughts in more detail in another post since it will take some time to write.

[themikefest]

I don't miss it.

[wolfhowwl]

What was so great about ME1's skill trees? They were completely linear and consisted of way too many extremely minor incremental upgrades.

[RedCaesar97]

1. First, let us talk about the powers themselves:

• In ME1, you have 12 points per talent. Talents are broken down into Basic, Advanced, and Master. Basic, Advanced and Master have larger jumps in power improvement, with points in between with only very marginal improvement.
• In ME2, you have 10 points per talent. Each talent had four ranks with increasing number of required points to unlock (1, 2, 3, and 4 points for a total of 10). At rank 4 you can choose an evolution.
• In ME3, you have 21 points per talent. Each talent has 6 ranks with increasing number of required points to unlock (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 points for a total of 21). At ranks 4, 5, and 6 you can choose an evolution.

In ME1, powers were fairly static, with the Basic, Advanced, and Master ranks improving the power. Some powers just did not work well at rank 1, or did not provide enough information to you to let you know when they would work. AI Hacking is the best (worst) example, where you had no clue on which enemies Basic, Advanced. or Master would work on. Some enemies are immune to Throw or Basic Throw.

 

Contrast this to ME2 and ME3 where powers work at rank 1 and are very clear how they work.

 

2. Passive talents.

 

In ME1 you had four talents that provide passive bonuses: the class passive (Soldier, Adept, Engineer, Vanguard, Infiltrator, Sentinel), Spectre Training, Charm, and Intimidate. 

• The class passive provided combat talent bonuses such as power cooldown. Class specializations further improved combat talent bonuses and also improved two or three powers.
• Charm and Intimidate unlocked persuasion options and buy/sell bonuses.
• Spectre Training unlocked Unity and some small combat bonuses.

Unless you have played the game before or did prior research, new players had no idea that you could obtain a class specialization or what the class specializations were. Some personal anecdotes:

• On my first playthrough (as a Soldier), I waited until near the very end of the game to go do the Luna mission. I was surprised to get a class specialization. I did not end up with enough points to max it out.
• On my first Engineer playthrough, I took the Medic specialization (First Aid and Neural Shock bonuses) but ended up focusing on the other powers since I rarely needed to use Medi-gel by the end of the game. Specialization wasted.

Charm and Intimidate are problems as well. Consider that the game practically forces you into either Paragon or Renegade. You also get up to four free Charm or Intimidate points by choosing Paragon or Renegade decisions in the game. This means that you must spend 8 points on Charm or intimidate to max the tree in one playthrough or play three times with the same character. The buy/sell bonuses tend to be kind of pointless by the end of the game as well considering how much you can sell all the items for.

 

Spectre Training bonuses are minuscule. Most players I have seen on these forums only recommend putting 4 points into it to get Basic Unity and some decent bonuses. Advanced or Master Unity is hardly worth the effort considering how little you will use it by the end of the game when you have great gear and a lot of maxed out powers.

 

In ME2, passive bonuses are now all in the class passive tree. You get Unity from the start. 

In ME3, passive bonuses are in the class passive and Fitness. You get Unity from the start.

 

 

3. Talent point distribution.

 

In ME1:

• You have up to 13 talent trees: 4 passive talents, 8 combat talents, and a bonus talent. With 12 points per tree, you have a maximum of 156 points.
• You start with 2 points already assigned.
• At level 50 (max available in your first playthrough), you gain up to 90 additional points (92 points total).
• At level 60 (minimum two playthroughs), you gain up to 100 additional points (102 points total).

102 points is enough to max 8 talent trees (8 of 13), plus 6 points in another talent tree. But consider:

• You only need to max either Charm or Intimidate, not both. So you can ignore one of them. So 102 points is enough to max 8 of 12 talent trees.
• Most players only spend 4 points on Spectre Training. You gain 4 free Charm or Intimidate points if you stick to Paragon or Renegade choices. So that is 12 points spread across two passive talent trees. That means you are free to spend 90 points on the remaining 10 talent trees, or enough to max 7 of the 10 talent trees, with 8 points left over.
• On most classes, at least one talent is useless or near-useless, such as Damping, non-Bastion Stasis, or at least one weapon talent. So that means you can ignore 1 talent tree altogether. Additionally, 1-point First Aid is good enough for most characters, unless spending extra points in it to unlock other powers. So you actually end up not maxing all the remaining powers anyway. Electronics and Decryption only need to be spent to rank 9 for Master ranks.

 

Depending on the class specialization -- assuming you know what they are -- you have about 2 maybe 3 unique builds per class, with maybe some changes depending on the bonus power. 

 

You cannot respec or reset points in ME1 which sucks, so you do not get to experiment with builds.

 

 

In ME2:

• You have up to 7 talent trees: 5 powers, 1 passive power, 1 bonus power. With 10 points per tree, you have a maximum of 70 points.
• At level 30 (typically not reachable in the first playthrough, but always reachable in other playthroughs), you have a maximum of 51 points.

51 points is enough to max 5 of the 7 powers, with 1 point in another power. Power evolutions allow further customization of each power.

 

You can re-assign bonus powers or reassign all points to play around with various builds. 

 

 

In ME3:

• You have up to 9 talent trees: 6 powers, 2 passive talents, 1 bonus power. With 21 points per tree, you have a maximum of 189 points
• At level 60 (achievable in with an import, or from level 1 with all DLC), you have a maximum of 181 points. 

181 points is enough to max 8 of 9 powers, plus 10 points in the 9th power (rank 4 evolution) plus 3 points left over.

 

You can reassign points and bonus powers to play around with various builds. Generally, you need use only 3-4 powers per class plus passive talents. Plenty of room for experimentation and customization.

 

 

4. Weapons versus weapon talents.

 

In ME1, weapons had their own skill trees with powers associated with them. Each class could use pistols. Other classes had 2 or more weapon talent trees. If unlocked, classes could select a weapon talent as a bonus talent. Most guns sucked at level 1. Rank 1 in the weapon talent was also pretty useless. Typically you need to spend 8-12 points in a talent to make it really good, especially sniper rifles.

 

In ME2, each class could use only specific weapon types assigned to that class. Partway through the game you can choose a bonus weapon or weapon training. Along with powers, this allowed further customization of the class.

 

In ME3, you can use whatever weapons you want on a class, although some weapons are essentially prohibited with certain class builds. No sense in speccing an Engineer for power combos if you want to use the Javelin for example.

 

 

 

5. Conclusion.

I just find that ME2 and ME3 have more customization than ME1 does. ME1 has more talent trees, but about a 1/3 of the trees are useless on most classes. There is some customization wiggle-room in ME1, but you have to plan ahead. ME2 and ME3 are more forgiving in that regard with the ability to reassign points and talent bonuses. 

[RanetheViking]

Wow Red. I forgot what I was gonna' say by the time I read all that. 

Good post though.

 

 

I think they got it just right by the third game.

 

For me the ME1 points/skill tree was a little convoluted at first and having to put points into the Charm/Intimidate powers always seemed a waste to me, but after playing it a few times and playing around with different builds I found what suited me.

 

ME2 was okay, but not quite enough ranks and evo's (imo), plus having to put some points into certain powers just to unlock another power  seemed a waste of points to me. But again, you work with what you get and make it work.

 

ME3 hit the sweet spot in my opinion.

[capn233]

I don't miss them specifically.  I do think there may be a place for more passive trees though.

 

DAI has non-linear trees, I am not sure I am completely in favor of that for ME, but I wouldn't be surprised if the game ends up with something similar.

[RedCaesar97]

I think they got it just right by the third game.

 

For me the ME1 points/skill tree was a little convoluted at first and having to put points into the Charm/Intimidate powers always seemed a waste to me, but after playing it a few times and playing around with different builds I found what suited me.

 

ME2 was okay, but not quite enough ranks and evo's (imo), plus having to put some points into certain powers just to unlock another power  seemed a waste of points to me. But again, you work with what you get and make it work.

 

ME3 hit the sweet spot in my opinion.

 

I think ME3 had too many evolutions. I thought most of the evolution choices were obvious or both sucked. I think if it was 5 ranks instead of 6, with ranks 4 and 5 offering a choice of two evolutions it would be better; it would cut some of the fluff evolutions.

 

I think ME3 also gave you too many points to spend. I think it should have been closer to ME2's point allotment, so that you could max 3-4 powers (plus 2 passives) which would allow for more build variety. 

 

For the most part, ME3's build variety comes from personal restrictions; basically what powers you decide to use early or use the most since by the end of the game you can use every power you have.

[cap and gown]

I would note one oddity of the power curve in ME2 that recently struck me. In M1 and M3 your power curve gradually rises throughout the game, but ME2 the power curve is filled with sudden spikes. Going from rank three to rank four of any power suddenly increases your power a great deal compared to ranks 1 through 3. Even more dramatic are the power spikes from upgrades. For example, with Firewalker you get one biotic damage upgrade before Horizon. On Horizon you get another biotic damage upgrade and then right afterwards you can buy the third damage upgrade which will allow you to research the 20% cool down upgrade. In one massive burst your DPS goes up by 40%. You get similar spikes from other upgrades. Once you get the 3rd SMG damage upgrade, your damage against shields goes up, not by 10% but by 60%. Likewise, the second heavy skin weave upgrade increase your damage resistance to melee attacks by a whopping 50%.

 

I don't really understand what the design philosophy was behind ME2's power curve. Perhaps someone could provide some insight?

[RedCaesar97]

I would note one oddity of the power curve in ME2 that recently struck me. In M1 and M3 your power curve gradually rises throughout the game, but ME2 the power curve is filled with sudden spikes. Going from rank three to rank four of any power suddenly increases your power a great deal compared to ranks 1 through 3. Even more dramatic are the power spikes from upgrades. For example, with Firewalker you get one biotic damage upgrade before Horizon. On Horizon you get another biotic damage upgrade and then right afterwards you can buy the third damage upgrade which will allow you to research the 20% cool down upgrade. In one massive burst your DPS goes up by 40%. You get similar spikes from other upgrades. Once you get the 3rd SMG damage upgrade, your damage against shields goes up, not by 10% but by 60%. Likewise, the second heavy skin weave upgrade increase your damage resistance to melee attacks by a whopping 50%.

 

I don't really understand what the design philosophy was behind ME2's power curve. Perhaps someone could provide some insight?

 

I think you have the right idea about power spikes in ME2, but I think you are misjudging where the power spikes occur.

 

The rank 4 evolutions obviously improve the power a great deal, but not nearly as much as you might think for some powers. Area evolutions obviously increase the area of effect of powers a great deal, but the damage or duration evolutions are generally on par with the rank 2 and 3 bonuses. Damage bonuses in ranks 2 and 3 are generally around +20% per rank; for defense stripping powers this generally means a +40% increase in damage to the vulnerable protections depending on the power. Duration bonuses in ranks 2 and 3 are generally +1 second duration.

 

Some powers also gain additional bonuses in ranks 2 and 3 besides damage or duration. Overload and Disruptor Ammo, for example, gain synthetic stun and weapon overload at ranks 2 and 3. Dominate and AI Hacking give the dominated/hacked enemy barriers/shields at rank 2 and 3, while rank 4 gives you choice of controlled multiple enemies in a radius or longer duration.

 

Your SMG example is also incorrect. You get the SMG Shield Damage upgrade after researching two SMG Damage upgrades (three damage upgrades will unlock the SMG Spare Ammo research upgrade). Researching two damage upgrades for a weapon type will unlock a protection damage bonus for that weapon type: +50% shield+barrier damage for shotguns and SMGs, +50% armor damage for pistols and sniper rifles, and +25% armor+shields+barriers damage for assault rifles. The third damage upgrade unlocks a different upgrade: stability for assault rifles, spare ammo for shotguns and SMGs, chance of critical damage for pistols, and headshot damage for sniper rifles.

 

The protection damage upgrade is a multiplier added to the total weapon damage. For example, the Shuriken has a 1.5x multiplier versus shields and barriers. Two damage upgrades will give you +20% damage and the SMG Shield Damage upgrade will increase the multiplier to 2x damage to shields and barriers. So instead of dealing 1.5x damage to shields with no upgrades, you now deal (1.2x)*2 damage to shields (or 2.4x damage to shields) assuming no other damage bonuses or distance multipliers. That is an increase of +60% damage as you correctly calculated.

 

 

Now as for the biotic damage upgrades, keep in mind that the Firewalker DLC and Stolen Memory (Kasumi) DLC were added after the game's release. This means that you can get your third Biotic Damage and third Tech Damage upgrades sooner in the game than if you had no DLC. Without DLC:

• The quickest you can get three Biotic Damage upgrades is by picking up the first upgrade on Horizon, purchasing the second on Illium (which unlocks the Biotic Duration upgrade), then picking up your third when recruiting Samara or Thane (which unlocks the Biotic Cooldown upgrade). Another upgrade is on Jack's loyalty mission, but you need to complete more missions before that mission unlocks.
• The quickest way to get three Tech Damage upgrades is by purchasing the first upgrade on the Citadel, picking up the second when recruiting Archangel/Garrus (which unlocks the Tech Duration upgrade), then picking up the third on Tali's loyalty mission or on the Disabled Collector Ship; both which require several missions to complete first (which unlocks the Tech Cooldown upgrade). The fifth Tech Damage upgrade can be purchased on Ilium after beating the Disabled Collector Ship.

So with DLC, you can get three Tech Damage upgrades (for both Tech Duration and Tech Cooldown) before Horizon, and three Biotic Damage upgrades (for both Biotic Duration and Biotic Cooldown) just after Horizon. Without DLC, you can get the third Biotic Damage upgrade (Biotic Cooldown) one mission after Horizon, while you can get the third Tech Damage upgrade (Tech Cooldown) either just before or on the Disabled Collector Ship. So without DLC, you can get Biotic Cooldown much sooner than the Tech Cooldown upgrade, while with DLC you can get Tech Cooldown almost right away while you have to wait much longer to get Biotic Cooldown. It is just the way upgrades are distributed.

[Remix-General Aetius]

short answer: no. it sucked.

 

somewhat longer answer: does anyone really bother with the whole point-management thing? I just have the console unlocked, give myself tons of points and max everything out the second I step on Eden Prime. job done. I'd rather focus on the action side of the game instead of micromanaging that crap.

[The Grey Ranger]

short answer: no. it sucked.

 

somewhat longer answer: does anyone really bother with the whole point-management thing? I just have the console unlocked, give myself tons of points and max everything out the second I step on Eden Prime. job done. I'd rather focus on the action side of the game instead of micromanaging that crap.

 

Yes, there were those of  us who managed our points very carefully in ME1.  It came out on console before it came out on PC.  In fact it was an XBox exclusive for a while.

 

That said what RedCaesar said is basically right as well, the whole point management in ME1, until you got a handle on the mechanics was not the high point of the game.

[capn233]

I did not manage my points well the first few runs, and that became obvious when I replayed the game with better progressions. 

 

Can't say I ever cheated to give myself infinite points.  I did give myself extra points to dump in the persuade lines one time though.

 

As far as ME2 is concerned, I think Red is again pretty much spot on.  Of course with fewer levels per power and fewer powers it was going to be a bit granular.  But ME1 wasn't all that smooth either.  Just taking Lift as an example, adding the point to unlock Advanced makes a drastic difference in many of the encounters.  Another example is purchasing a Spectre pistol, which you can do before you leave the Citadel the first time.

[MrFob]

I thought ME1 had massive power spikes in some cases. For an adept for example, as soon as you unlock an extra CC power like lift or singularity, you are effectively much more powerful in the game because of the individual cooldown, resulting in the fact that you can just keep spanning one power after the other.

There were also huge power spikes due to equipment. Find Savant omnitools and amps early and your shields and cooldowns suddenly improve massively. Buy spectre weapons and your accuracy and damage spike.

 

On the general topic: I am not a gameplay nut like Caesar here. For me, as long as it plays well, I don't really care too much and I am not an optimizer either. So I didn't mind the mechanics in any of the games. That said, I do not think the ME1 skill tree was great in any way and it did not offer more complexity than ME2, let alone ME3 in any way. Carefully managing points was pretty much unnecessary as well because you become overpowered pretty quickly anyway. The only thing I always do in that regard is to level electronics and decryption not past rank 9 because everything after that is pretty much useless.

 

I also have to confess that I do sometimes cheat charm/intimidate points onto my character, mostly because I don't think that the persuasion system is thought through very well in any of the ME games.

[MrStoob]

The progression was too long with few gains along the 'tree' in ME1.  I was glad that that was one part of the game that was streamlined for ME2>ME3, though done better in ME3.  I would like things like hacking/electronics to return as hacking minigames were removed completely by ME3.  Talking of which and just as an aside... there was that one genuine traditional puzzle in ME1, hacking the Noveria VI, and nothing more at all even similar throughout the series - odd.

[capn233]

I would like things like hacking/electronics to return as hacking minigames were removed completely by ME3. 

I liked hacking and bypass in ME2 as well.  They were probably removed because too many people wanted the game to play itself for them.

[MrFob]

The progression was too long with few gains along the 'tree' in ME1.  I was glad that that was one part of the game that was streamlined for ME2>ME3, though done better in ME3.  I would like things like hacking/electronics to return as hacking minigames were removed completely by ME3.  Talking of which and just as an aside... there was that one genuine traditional puzzle in ME1, hacking the Noveria VI, and nothing more at all even similar throughout the series - odd.

 

I also didn't mind the hackng minigames. Wouldn't mind them coming back at all.

 

As for puzzles, I wouldn't exactly call Towers of Hanoi an inspired choice (especially since the same dev team used it already in their previous game ) but I am all for more puzzles in RPGs. I really don't get why they are so out of fashion these days. We have an inventory anyway but it's always only used for combat gear (be that swords in fantasy or guns in scifi). Why not use it for puzzle objects as well and give some adventure vibes? Worried about disturbing the game flow or ticking people off? Well, make them optional. Everyone is all about multiple solutions to quests these days so give us a combat solution, a stealth solution, a persuasion solution and a puzzle solution (well, maybe not all of them for all quests but some subset of those).

I'd love to see that in ME games (or any RPG for that matter) but for some reason, this kind of thing hasn't really been done since the mid 90s.

 

Sorry for going off topic, puzzle posts always trigger that rant reflex in me.

[MrStoob]

Not every game can be System Shock 2, I suppose.  

[Remix-General Aetius]

The progression was too long with few gains along the 'tree' in ME1.  I was glad that that was one part of the game that was streamlined for ME2>ME3, though done better in ME3.  I would like things like hacking/electronics to return as hacking minigames were removed completely by ME3.  Talking of which and just as an aside... there was that one genuine traditional puzzle in ME1, hacking the Noveria VI, and nothing more at all even similar throughout the series - odd.

 

you mean the M29 Grizzly hacking? they used the same thing for the Citadel AI that was funneling credits into off-shore accounts and attempted to self-destruct when discovered.

[MrStoob]

you mean the M29 Grizzly hacking? they used the same thing for the Citadel AI that was funneling credits into off-shore accounts and attempted to self-destruct when discovered.

The rings on the sticks type mini-game.  This one:

[Remix-General Aetius]

oh that thing to fix Mira.........I think. that was the most retarded "puzzle" I've ever seen. tried it once, never again.

[The Grey Ranger]

Meh, it's just another tower of hanoi puzzle.  It follows very simple logic

[Steve.81]

...completely linear and consist of way too many extremely minor incremental upgrades.

 

^ This ^

 

They're not terrible but I certainly don't miss them when I play 2 or 3.  Also, I think there are actually more customization options in the sequels, overall, when you take into consideration the armour and guns.

 

And I've literally never once completed that mini-game puzzle to repair Mira.  Tried it the first time, thought, "...the hell is this nonsense?!", backed out and used Omni-gel.  Never even thought about trying it again.  I really like all the hacking mini-games in part 2 though.

[Faust1979]

I liked the level up system in Mass Effect 3 much better

[GDICanuck]

I like how some of the skills had non-combat effects, like Decryption. It would have been cool to take that aspect further. I remember in KOTOR where tech skills like Computer Use and Repair could allow you to vent poison gas into hallways or reprogram enemy mechs.