In another thread, like literally a few minutes ago, Luke stated that the nerf to explosive shot was accidental and will be fixed.
In the meantime, he was going to look into a quick fix of just doubling the fire damage to compensate until the real fix.
Why? One Leaping Shot will have the target at 0 armor by the fifth hit?
How's that? do you need the crit passive? I dont have throwing blades 
Since this is mute I'm not going to spend much time.
Latest patch. Still does fire damage and knockdown, but no physical damage. Pretty big nerf if you ask me. Still a good starter ability in my opinion. Other skills are actually worth taking to replace it now.
Jeeze man, you'd think I just advocated spamming caltrops on the archer.
Edit: apparently the nerf was unintentional.
Okay, wow, that's complete nonsense (the nerf, that is). Literally a 50% nerf on an ability that was already lackluster in the first place. I don't agree that it's a good starter ability now -- the AoE is way too small for it to do that little damage. I mean, let's look at the Archer/Hunter:
Archer gets Long Shot, Leaping Shot, Mark of Death...and last ability is up in the air. Those three are the "core" abilities. Some people go Explosive Shot, others Full Draw, others Fallback Plan, etc.
Hunter gets...well, Hunter is a lot more of a wild card. Some people focus on Elemental Mines or Spike Trap, others like Throwing Blades, others like Stealth, others like Full Draw, Leaping Shot, Fallback Plan, Hook and Tackle...and so on. No one ever talks about how Explosive Shot is so good and needs to be taken or something.
Explosive Shot was not some super powerful class/spec defining ability. And let's look at some actual numbers for "good start abilities"...say, Chain Lightning? Remember, Chain Lightning is a mage ability so in theory the Hunter/Archer should have better damage abilities in general compared to the Keeper/Arcane Warrior.
Chain Lightning (on 2+ targets) deals 1500% weapon damage total. Staves in general have about 50% of the base damage compared to bows (though they ignore armor so that actually favors staves, but we'll go with the 50% number for now). That means if you had Chain Lightning with a bow you'd do 750% weapon damage total (6 bounces for 125% weapon damage each) to compensate for the higher base damage.
Explosive shot is 150% weapon damage per enemy. You'd need to hit at least five enemies with Explosive Shot to make it equal or exceed the damage of Chain Lightning. With Chain Lightning being able to jump *nine* meters rather than *four* meters.
Why is a starting DPS skill of a support mage and a tank mage significantly better (as in over twice as good versus two targets, over 50% better versus three targets, etc) than a starting DPS skill of rogues?
How did we get to comparing the archer and hunter when discussing explosive shot? They both have the ability as a starter. Archer is clearly the more OP kit due to opportunity knocks...no debate from anyone there. Nerf impacted them both equally, at least for the builds I ran. Both included Explosive Shot.
Explosive Shot in its pre-unintended nerf state never needed to be replaced. Never needed to be upgraded. I certainly never spent points to replace it. It's a fantastic ability that knocks enemies down and doesn't miss unless blocked by terrain. Its AOE isn't as bad as you would make it out to be and criticals (which with both physical and fire is fantastic) can be guaranteed when paired with stealth/Knife+Shadows. It also has a short cooldown of 12 seconds.
Even with fire damage only, its still a solid starter skill that has a low cooldown and can knock enemies down.
Please reread my post. I specifically said "other skills are actually worth taking to replace it now." This implies I agree the nerf is extreme and no longer makes the skill something worth skipping elemental mines, throwing knives or fulldraw for...Pre-unintended nerf that isn't the case.
Running Sealth+, Leaping Shot, Ele Mines+, Spike trap
Armor Pen passive is also a high priority.
Why? One Leaping Shot will have the target at 0 armor by the fifth hit? Throwing Blades will also sunder.
Maybe if you're talking about running up to an enemy and just Spike Trapping it, I guess? But for many playstyles it'll barely matter.
My guess is that the Marucho is using something like this:
That build doesn't include Throwingblades, nor Cheap Shot. Armor passive is nice.
Modifié par Proto, 10 septembre 2015 - 08:20 .
How's that? do you need the crit passive? I dont have throwing blades
How did we get to comparing the archer and hunter when discussing explosive shot? They both have the ability as a starter. Archer is clearly the more OP kit due to opportunity knocks...no debate from anyone there. Nerf impacted them both equally, at least for the builds I ran. Both included Explosive Shot.
Explosive Shot in its pre-unintended nerf state never needed to be replaced. Never needed to be upgraded.
Please reread my post. I specifically said "other skills are actually worth taking to replace it now." This implies I agree the nerf is extreme and no longer makes the skill something worth skipping elemental mines, throwing knives or fulldraw for...Pre-unintended nerf that isn't the case.
Archer gets Long Shot, Leaping Shot, Mark of Death...and last ability is up in the air. Those three are the "core" abilities. Some people go Explosive Shot, others Full Draw, others Fallback Plan, etc.
Hunter gets...well, Hunter is a lot more of a wild card. Some people focus on Elemental Mines or Spike Trap, others like Throwing Blades, others like Stealth, others like Full Draw, Leaping Shot, Fallback Plan, Hook and Tackle...and so on. No one ever talks about how Explosive Shot is so good and needs to be taken or something.
That's a comparison.
Yes, I was referring to the auto crit from Stealth passive.
How does knife in the shadows help sunder armor without cheap shot? Which his build doesn't have.
Also, Hunter is a lot easier to use for a new player with worse gear. Between starting with Fallback Plan and having Stealth, lot easier to manage aggro/health before getting better gear and HoK/HoH.
I can see that being the case. Though I remember thinking exactly what you described in the quote above. Then I unlocked him and was extremely disappointed because opportunity knocks is and will always be king, especially with all the people out there with high critical chance now aday. Longshot was also OP in those days, which might have influenced that feeling.
If you were using Explosive Shot for AoE then the upgrade drastically helped. Hit 4+ enemies and it's like having 100% more attack -- even if you have 100% attack default that's still a 50% damage improvement. Even on one enemy it would have been >10% increase even if you had 100% attack otherwise.
Sure, it gets used as an AoE. But often not against 4+ enemies due to its 12 second cooldown, much more often used against < 3. Upgrade is a throw in towards the end of the build for me. Not essential by any means.
The very build you guessed Maracucho was using doesn't keep Explosive Shot. Dieb on page 1 doesn't keep it. SpaceVegan didn't mention it in his post. Only you and I were using it from the people who posted actual "builds" in this thread. So apparently 60% of people posting in this thread who care enough to post a build think it was already worth replacing prior to the nerf.
My guess is SpaceVegan uses it, because he probably promotes before getting to a point where he replaces it. I could be wrong, though. He does say passives, not other abilities. I would guess Jerky uses it, seeing as he said he was going to try out a swap I mentioned I gave a try. So yeah, Maracucho who said he used mines after the bug-nerf and Dieb don't use it.
We have such a big sample size here its worth pointing out though, right...
Its a great ability, you yourself use it. Not even sure what you're trying to gain from bickering with me back and forth.
Hunter is my new favorite character, especially since my best weapon is a bow. (Just got a shiny new 20+ purple bow with 1% heal on hit.)
I'm pretty sure I am playing it wrong, sadly there is no Drasca build to be /followed, but it is fun.
I play like a stealth archer, kind of ignoring all the other fun toys.
Stealth, full draw, leaping shot and explosive shot.
Stealth coupled with full draw or leaping shot does a ton of damage. Lets me kill high priority targets immediately if I can outrace my team and hit a full draw before everyone starts nuking.
And I really like explosive shot for knockdowns of melee that get close if leaping shot is on cooldown, or CC of archers.
I want to branch out and try other stuff, but not sure what to drop. I imagine most people will say full draw, but it feels super strong for low promoted players.
Obviously I want to keep leaping shot, and stealth is invaluable for aggro drops and free regular crits. And I really like the CC from explosive shot.
I think I may try dropping full draw for elemental mines next run through.
Hunter is my new favorite character, especially since my best weapon is a bow. (Just got a shiny new 20+ purple bow with 1% heal on hit.)
I'm pretty sure I am playing it wrong, sadly there is no Drasca build to be /followed, but it is fun.
Spoiler
I play like a stealth archer, kind of ignoring all the other fun toys.
Stealth, full draw, leaping shot and explosive shot.
Stealth coupled with full draw or leaping shot does a ton of damage. Lets me kill high priority targets immediately if I can outrace my team and hit a full draw before everyone starts nuking.
And I really like explosive shot for knockdowns of melee that get close if leaping shot is on cooldown, or CC of archers.
I want to branch out and try other stuff, but not sure what to drop. I imagine most people will say full draw, but it feels super strong for low promoted players.
Obviously I want to keep leaping shot, and stealth is invaluable for aggro drops and free regular crits. And I really like the CC from explosive shot.
I think I may try dropping full draw for elemental mines next run through.
If you try a build with spike trap I bet you never build again with out it. I agree with your comments about your build and having a tough time giving up one of the attack abilities. Using spike trap instead of full draw you can stealth run right up to enemies, even dangerous ones, place the trap down which goes off right away and then you use leaping shot to get out of there and explosive shot to clean up anyone coming after you.
Spoiler
I asked the same question present in your spoiler several months ago, and I got crickets. Idk either. What made you think of that?
I asked the same question present in your spoiler several months ago, and I got crickets. Idk either. What made you think of that?
He has a build for hunter listed in the DAIMP resource guild sticky.
If you try a build with spike trap I bet you never build again with out it. I agree with your comments about your build and having a tough time giving up one of the attack abilities. Using spike trap instead of full draw you can stealth run right up to enemies, even dangerous ones, place the trap down which goes off right away and then you use leaping shot to get out of there and explosive shot to clean up anyone coming after you.
Not getting Throwing Blades is pretty mad, even with the trap buffs
Full Draw gives you way too much exposure and can still miss/be interrupted.
Full Draw does 800% weapon dmg, Throwing Blades 750% last I checked
Not getting Throwing Blades is pretty mad, even with the trap buffs
Full Draw gives you way too much exposure and can still miss/be interrupted.
Full Draw does 800% weapon dmg, Throwing Blades 750% last I checked
Throwing blades is consistently inconsistent though. Too many fly off to nowhere, hit dead targets, and just spin in air for all eternity.
Plus throwing blades has a 12 second cooldown.
Full Draw has an 8 second cooldown, and full draw cant miss (barring terrain in the way). And even if it does hit terrain it still wont trigger the cooldown (unlike throwing blades with a target and 0 hits).
But throwing blades are more fun, I'll give you that.
Not getting Throwing Blades is pretty mad, even with the trap buffs
Full Draw gives you way too much exposure and can still miss/be interrupted.
Full Draw does 800% weapon dmg, Throwing Blades 750% last I checked
It also does an additional 800% bonus damage for targets at full health. Which you can couple with stealth free crits (which you of course can also use with throwing knives).
I looked at your builds, but as you said, it's centered around the three shot bow, and I have a single shot bow.
I may try throwing knives also, it's just so far down the tree. And they don't always hit, so it's not always 750%. And they don't always hit the same target, and the burst of full draw is it's main feature.
BTW, thanks for the lengthy write-ups.
They are very informative and looked like they took a lot of work. It is appreciated.
EDIT: As as someone else noted, throwing knives does have a longer cooldown.
Throwing Blades is fairly accurate, especially at 10-5m. It gets a little screwy at point blank range
They sunder, they stagger, they're fast
For me the 800% bonus is non-existent, you'd have to set it up like a Twin Fangs which is a crazy opportunity cost as you could be doing damage during the whole time you were moving.
The cooldown on Full Draw is deceptive as the animation takes such a long time to complete (you might have done 3 auto-attacks in the same window)
With Throwing Blades they're straight out and you can go back to moving/attacking using other abilities
If I wanted to use the hunter with a single target bow I'd take
-Leaping Shot
-Throwing Blades
-Spike Trap
-Elemental Mines
You could also then skip out on those poor passives needed to get to Stealth
That's a comparison.
How does knife in the shadows help sunder armor without cheap shot? Which his build doesn't have.
I can see that being the case. Though I remember thinking exactly what you described in the quote above. Then I unlocked him and was extremely disappointed because opportunity knocks is and will always be king, especially with all the people out there with high critical chance now aday. Longshot was also OP in those days, which might have influenced that feeling.
Sure, it gets used as an AoE. But often not against 4+ enemies due to its 12 second cooldown, much more often used against < 3. Upgrade is a throw in towards the end of the build for me. Not essential by any means.
Its a great ability, you yourself use it. Not even sure what you're trying to gain from bickering with me back and forth.
I'm pretty sure I am playing it wrong, sadly there is no Drasca build to be /followed, but it is fun.
You could also then skip out on those poor passives needed to get to Stealth
Not getting Throwing Blades is pretty mad, even with the trap buffs
Full Draw gives you way too much exposure and can still miss/be interrupted.
Full Draw does 800% weapon dmg, Throwing Blades 750% last I checked
Lol at comparing one 800% shot (up to 2100% w/ ring) versus 4 throwing blades. You do know each blade will be reduced by armor. I don't see 4 blades adding up to 20k+ damage.
With a Hakkon bow I find the following build best for damage: http://da-skills.net...111,00000,000,0
The real reason for getting throwing blades is getting cheapshot for the armor penetration passive (Cheap Shot). It is very useful for nightmare difficulty when something gets hit by 1 auto attack and loses most of it's armor. (3 Arrows with Hakkon Bow)
I don't have to hide. I just facetank/shotgun while relying on HoK and High Promotes to keep me alive. With 'Cheap Shot' and 'Pincushion' my auto attacks on the NM dragon ends up being around 4+K damage x 3 shots = 12K+ auto attacks (Hakkon)
I hope 'Explosive Shot' will be returned to its former glory. I also like Hunter builds with 'Stealth' and 'Full Draw'. Makes me feel like a sniper when a Despair Demon is hit by a 25+K critical (Eat it! Ate it!) 
Lol at comparing one 800% shot (up to 2100% w/ ring) versus 4 throwing blades. You do know each blade will be reduced by armor. I don't see 4 blades adding up to 20k+ damage.
Explosive Shot was not some super powerful class/spec defining ability. And let's look at some actual numbers for "good start abilities"...say, Chain Lightning? Remember, Chain Lightning is a mage ability so in theory the Hunter/Archer should have better damage abilities in general compared to the Keeper/Arcane Warrior.
Chain Lightning (on 2+ targets) deals 1500% weapon damage total. Staves in general have about 50% of the base damage compared to bows (though they ignore armor so that actually favors staves, but we'll go with the 50% number for now). That means if you had Chain Lightning with a bow you'd do 750% weapon damage total (6 bounces for 125% weapon damage each) to compensate for the higher base damage.
Explosive shot is 150% weapon damage per enemy. You'd need to hit at least five enemies with Explosive Shot to make it equal or exceed the damage of Chain Lightning. With Chain Lightning being able to jump *nine* meters rather than *four* meters.
Why is a starting DPS skill of a support mage and a tank mage significantly better (as in over twice as good versus two targets, over 50% better versus three targets, etc) than a starting DPS skill of rogues?
So, lets look at some actual numbers.
Chain Lightning
Chain Lightning does not do 1500% weapon damage when you start, only 1000%. You need to upgrade it to do the extra two hits. I stay away from Chain Lightning because I have always felt that it had really bad damage. Now, after testing it (finally), I see why. Only the initial hit can crit.
While playing on a level one Arcane Warrior, my first hit from Chain Lightning would hit for 1200 on average, then about 500 for the other three. That's about 2700 damage per cast. The upgrade would add two more hits that also cannot crit, so it does around 3700 damage in a cast.
Explosive Shot
Explosive Shot deals 150% weapon damage twice. It has a fairly large (4 meter) AoE. The upgrade can up the damage to 250% weapon damage per hit. If you meet that requirement, you are hitting at least 4 enemies for 500% weapon damage each, for a total of at least 2000% weapon damage. Yes, that is actually more than the 1500% weapon damage Chain Lightning can do. You can double check my math if you don't believe it. 
Explosive Shot used to hit twice, both hits can crit, and it can hit in an AoE. My Explosive Shot would hit for about 2500 damage, twice, to multiple enemies. That's 5000 damage per enemy hit. Even if I hit only one target, I do more damage than upgraded Chain Lightning hitting as many targets as possible. Edit: Testing Explosive shot on a level one Archer, it would hit for about 1800. Oh, and it knocks down the primary target. Until this nerf is fixed, Explosive Shot will be about as useless as Chain Lightning... but only if you hit 2 or less targets.
Once we start factoring in higher level characters, such as the Archer with Opportunity Knocks, Explosive Shot becomes not only great damage, but also an instant cooldown when firing into a group.
My conclusion: Unless you have very little Cunning, Chain Lightning is nowhere near as good as Explosive Shot.
P.S. Both of my examples were accounting for Hakkon Weapons and two Superb Crit Damage Rings.
Explosive Shot is a very versatile and useful skill, though given it's windup and nature, only from afar. My favourite thing about ES is actually the infallible tracking.
However, Spike Trap has a shorter cooldown, usually deals higher damage and is an instant cast. That naturally stems from the fact that I play a classic melee Hunter, with FBP & HT for survivability & mobility. The problem with mapping 4 damage skills as a not terribly promoted player is, that you are not very self-sufficient when pugging with a bad squad. Spike Trap & Leaping Shot in combination with H&T are enough to have constant and instant burst/AoE output, without sacrificing defenses.
I like to pair Throwing Blades with Stealth, in order to get maximum damage. Blow up a group with Spike Trap (Yes, I still do like it if so much isn't clear) and finish off surviviors with TB. The downside is that sometimes, when you want to take an individual big mob down with 4 knives, he will split them up randomly for no good deed done.
Lol at comparing one 800% shot (up to 2100% w/ ring) versus 4 throwing blades. You do know each blade will be reduced by armor. I don't see 4 blades adding up to 20k+ damage.
Every knife applies Sunder. The comparison is also tricky, because it is a DPS / utility question - the sheer numbers should be obvious to anyone.
Except Stealth is amazing for newer, less skilled, and/or less promoted players. Not even in terms of damage but in terms of dropping aggro or removing problematic effects. Just keep in mind the difference between builds for PromotionLords and builds for the more common folk.
You are talking about Stealth hiding, where a low lvl player survives by not doing much more than stay in stealth throughout the match. I do not approve of this strategy. Use it freely when playing with friends but don't do that in my room.
To actually use Stealth in a way that supports your team and your performance requires good skill and strategy.
You should learn to stay alive by using stagger/knockdown/cover and burst damage before you try and improve yourself by using Stealth
Lol at comparing one 800% shot (up to 2100% w/ ring) versus 4 throwing blades. You do know each blade will be reduced by armor. I don't see 4 blades adding up to 20k+ damage.
That is misguided. Damage is calculated by (the base damage of your weapon - armor) times % weapon dmg. So if you attack using 100 projectiles of 20% weapon dmg or 1 shot that does 2000% that has zero effect on your damage output.
no lol at your ignorance
Still makes me laugh that the 100% auto crit bug still works
You are talking about Stealth hiding, where a low lvl player survives by not doing much more than stay in stealth throughout the match. I do not approve of this strategy. Use it freely when playing with friends but don't do that in my room.
To actually use Stealth in a way that supports your team and your performance requires good skill and strategy.
You should learn to stay alive by using stagger/knockdown/cover and burst damage before you try and improve yourself by using Stealth
If you put it as "hiding all match", obviously there's no need to disprove it's wrong that way. Every skill is supposed to "improve" one's performance in a way, though - how would such a cowardly behaviour even improve someone's performance at all?
I shall go ahead and assume he's referring to nullifying aggro, smart reviving, and more specifically, Lost In The Shadows' perk of removing all debuffs - i.e. fire and Terror screams. Getting hit by which is close to inevitable over the span of an entire match and a mathematical death sentence for low WP. Sure, it is always your own fault, and it isn't factually impossible to avoid, but let's be honest here. It happens. Often enough, to anyone.
Personally I prefer FBP for my "survivability slot", but I do see its usage beyond an offense boost. Obviously you should set out to end every Stealth with a strong attack, but I hardly agree that using it defensively -you're a Rogue- is despicable per se.
That is misguided. Damage is calculated by (the base damage of your weapon - armor) times % weapon dmg. So if you attack using 100 projectiles of 20% weapon dmg or 1 shot that does 2000% that has zero effect on your damage output.
Fair enough. My dislike of your commentary has carried me away. However, there are a couple of issues that bother me in how people (not just you) are comparing throwing blades and full draw:
1. They are totally different kinds of skills used for different purposes. One is a burst attack from up to long range on a high life target best used by maximizing the brief window of the stealth damage buff. The other is a short to medium range quick set of attacks that reduce armor but where you have little control over your targets beyond the first. One is a strategic tool the other a fire and forget (usually spread) attack. Treating them as equivalent (which is what set me off in your earlier post) is dumb.
2. I still lol at people who cherry pick their damage comparisons. If Yarpen were still around he would attest to how unreliable throwing blades is in terms of target control and actual damage dealing. Look, I don't want to knock throwing blades, but both throwing blades and full draw have their downsides in doing what you want them to do. But I find it easier to deliver a full full draw than getting all your throwing blades to hit the same target for max damage. If ThirdRace wants to cherry pick and say his ideal scenario of throwing blades deals 22k or so while giving an unbelievable "average" of only 12k for full draw, then I say you are a master at throwing blades but need to l2p with full draw.
Mea culpa: I did not know they fixed the throwing blades upgrade.
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