93 réponses à ce sujet

[FatCatTrap]

Agreed, it really is a fun class to play. My favourite build I've used is definitely not some high optimal build but I had a lot of fun using the following while having the griffin bow equipped.

Leaping Shot
Elemental Mines
Poison Cloud
Explosive shot

It becomes really hectic juggling melee and distance range at the right time. I'm able to kill really quickly but if I don't play smart I die really quickly. I only have the 2% HoK ring as well so that can't be relied upon either. At least when I played last week, the Emissary enemies (including alpha) suffer some kind of auto tracking bug from the bonus shots of the griffin bow, so they get hit the bonus two shots at a decent range, their health drops real quick.

 

[Jay P]

You are talking about Stealth hiding, where a low lvl player survives by not doing much more than stay in stealth throughout the match. I do not approve of this strategy. Use it freely when playing with friends but don't do that in my room.

To actually use Stealth in a way that supports your team and your performance requires good skill and strategy.

You should learn to stay alive by using stagger/knockdown/cover and burst damage before you try and improve yourself by using Stealth

This is being a little reductive.

Not only can it be paired for an instant crit, but it's an immediate aggro drop. Not to run and hide for the entire match, but to give you some breathing room to: wait for a heavy damage ability to come off cool down (and let's not pretend this will be a long time, as full draw and leaping shot and explosive shot have short cool downs); to reposition, especially in the case of finding some cover from range mobs; etc.

And this is not even yet considering its application regarding dots and recovering from knockdowns and other CC.

I am going to take your advice and try TB next promote. Just not sure how much to commit to it with a single target bow. Also considering elemental mines, spike trap, poison cloud and hook and tackle. I'll play around on the talent calculators before I start leveling.

[Beerfish]

I am trying to imagine what my version of a fat cat trap might be, perhaps a box.....held up by a stick with a string on the stick....and a bowl of kibble soaked in sardine juice under the box....and the string attached to the bowl so that when the bowl is moved the trap is sprung, I will need a large box.

[jerky]

I am trying to imagine what my version of a fat cat trap might be, perhaps a box.....held up by a stick with a string on the stick....and a bowl of kibble soaked in sardine juice under the box....and the string attached to the bowl so that when the bowl is moved the trap is sprung, I will need a large box.

I once had a cat I could lure anywhere with Cake frosting

[ALTBOULI]

Sounds like OP has finally had a chance to try out the Danny Glover build

[Silversmurf]

If you have completed 250 games with this class and still enjoy it, good for you.   I can't say I'll be in a rush to pick up Hunter again.

 

When you complete the whole 4250 games.....madness....

 

217/250 Elementalist

196/250 Legionnaire

177/250 Necromancer

114/250 Templar

18/250  Silent Sister

14/250  Saarebas

done     Archer

done     Hunter

done     Alchemist

done     Assassin

done     Duelist

done     Reaver

done     Katari

done     Avaar

done     Keeper

done     Arcane Warrior

done     Virtuoso

 

 

so 764 games to go........ (new warrior will be out by then )

 

Reaver, Duelist, Alchemist, Necromancer are my favourites to play.

 

Saarebas feels good with the Heart of Pride though.  Need to play more but finishing others first.

[Beerfish]

I've only completed the Alchemist and the Templar.

[Gya]

Explosive Shot is a very versatile and useful skill, though given it's windup and nature, only from afar. My favourite thing about ES is actually the infallible tracking.

I actually like using ES in a clumped group at point blank range out of stealth. With 2 superb crit damage rings, and auto crit from stealth, it's very satisfying

And then leaping shot on a big target to safety, and by then stealth should be off cooldown.

[ParthianShotX]

If you have completed 250 games with this class and still enjoy it, good for you.   I can't say I'll be in a rush to pick up Hunter again.

 

When you complete the whole 4250 games.....madness....

 

217/250 Elementalist

196/250 Legionnaire

177/250 Necromancer

114/250 Templar

18/250  Silent Sister

14/250  Saarebas

done     Archer

done     Hunter

done     Alchemist

done     Assassin

done     Duelist

done     Reaver

done     Katari

done     Avaar

done     Keeper

done     Arcane Warrior

done     Virtuoso

 

 

so 764 games to go........ (new warrior will be out by then )

 

Reaver, Duelist, Alchemist, Necromancer are my favourites to play.

 

Saarebas feels good with the Heart of Pride though.  Need to play more but finishing others first.

 

holy smokes good for you -- I'm a long way off -- only completed four so far

[Proto]

I don't know if you're trying to troll me here. The only even semi-comparison was talking about how the Hunter has a wider variety of abilities used compared to the Archer -- and you could remove the word "more" without changing the meaning of the paragraph. Nothing was said about relative power or "OPness" or anything along those lines (you brought that up). The point was that *neither* class had Explosive Shot as a crucial/keystone ability.

Goal: show chocolate is irrelevant to making apple pie or cherry pie

A. Apple pie is made with apples and pie crust
B. Cherry pie is made with cherries and pie crust
C. Neither A or B mention chocolate
D. Therefore chocolate is irrelevant to making apple pie or cherry pie

That is not a comparison of apple pie and cherry pie -- it's comparing apple pie to chocolate and then cherry pie to chocolate.

Goal: show Explosive Shot isn't crucial/primary/etc to the Hunter or the Archer

A. The Hunter does not have Explosive Shot as a crucial/primary/etc skill
B. The Archer does not Explosive Shot as a crucial/primary/etc skill
C. Neither A or B features Explosive Shot as a crucial/primary/etc skill
D. Therefore Explosive Shot isn't crucial/primary/etc to the Hunter or the Archer

It's not "Hunter vs Archer" but rather "Hunter vs Explosive Shot" and "Archer vs Explosive Shot"...because those are the only two classes with the skill.

 

Point is your "goal" was not achieved. Explosive shot is a crucial and primary skill to the Archer and Hunter. They both use it for a minimum of their first 10+ levels, and many choose to keep it as a main ability in their rotation throughout the entirety of their build. 

 

Not sure why you are arguing that you didn't compare the two, you did. I will admit I was the one who mentioned the difference in effectiveness, but only to make the point that bringing up the hunter's access to a wider variety of skills as a reason to not "nerf" explosive shot was balogne. 

 

 

It doesn't. You'd need both the auto-crit (or very high Cunning) and Cheap Shot. If you have neither then the 25% Armor Pen talent is a lot more appealing.

 

Exactly. That's why I recommended it in the first place. 

 

 

Those people with high critical chance aren't going to be in Routine when you're starting out and they won't be *that* common in Threatening either. And with worse initial gear you won't be killing stuff as quickly (for Dance of Death) nor will you be landing a lot of crits (Looked Like It Hurt) so Opportunity Knocks won't even help as much.

It's difficult, I know, but in this case you need to think from the perspective of someone actually new (and I'm being completely sincere right now -- trying to remember what it was like to start playing a game after investing hundreds of hours into it isn't easy. You could even try making a new account to start from scratch if you wanted to see -- the trial version is free). 

 

Newer players forget that we have all played in low promotion situations, with far worse gear than the newer player's experience. We probably played hundreds more hours with scrubby level stuff and didn't have improved armor to work with. Please try to think about it from that perspective.

 

You yourself have pointed out how easy it is to get critical chance up through weapon and armor upgrades as well as accessories, ect...I'm not buying your Routine and Threatening explanation. We're not talking about week one players with absolutely no access to anything. The Hunter is clearly not high on the "unlock" list for new players, at least the ones who plan to powergame. So yes, in that specific example, where someone happens to have the Hunter unlocked before he leaves Routine, it may be more effective than an archer, maybe.

 

I have the trial version of the game, but no computer worth playing it on. Eventually I'll need a new PC for my home, but at the moment its not high on my priority list. 

 

 

If used as an AoE for < 3 enemies then that means...exactly 2 enemies (1 enemy wouldn't be an AoE).

 

Lol...The spell is always an AoE. Whether it actually hits multiple targets doesn't change that. In my statement < 3 = one or two enemies, not more. 

 

 

I don't know about you, but if every ability upgrade said "Increase the damage of this ability by 30%" I'd think those were definitely worth taking and essential. And, of course, against 4+ targets we're talking a 54-72% increase in damage (varying based on the base attack % of the player).

 

I've already told you I pick it up later in my builds if I feel like it. The Hunter is starved for points early on. I want Stealth, most players want Knife in the Shadows.  I want Leaping Shot and its upgrade. I want Razor's edge. I want Spike Trap and or Elemental Mines. I may even want to get Throwing Blades and Cheap Shot. I want pincushion. I want the armor passive if I didn't go for throwing blades and cheap shot.

 

This was my initial stance. If others want to prioritize increasing explosive shots damage against multiple targets...and only against multiple targets, fine go for it. Its not worth it to me. I'd prefer to spend the points other places until later in the build. 

 

 

I used it prior to that minor "do 50% less damage" accidental change. That changed it from being decent to being terrible. You're arguing that even at 50% of original damage that it's still solid -- that's what I'm disagreeing with.

 

As stated before, its better than decent for a starter skill...when not bugged. Its a great starter skill when working as intended. My exact quote on the matter in response to a question you specifically asked me was this:

 

"Latest patch. Still does fire damage and knockdown, but no physical damage. Pretty big nerf if you ask me. Still a good starter ability in my opinion. Other skills are actually worth taking to replace it now."

 

"Even with fire damage only, its still a solid starter skill that has a low cooldown and can knock enemies down."

 

I tested Chain Lightning with Snakebite last night, wow that ability is terrible. 

 

I will not defend myself any further. The fact you are giving me this much grief over the above statements, which were only made to answer a question you posed, is ridiculous. 

 

Except Stealth is amazing for newer, less skilled, and/or less promoted players. Not even in terms of damage but in terms of dropping aggro or removing problematic effects. Just keep in mind the difference between builds for PromotionLords and builds for the more common folk.

 

Stealth post-buff is god tier. The fade-cloak invulnerability effect is absolutely amazing, even for promotion lords. Dropping aggro and status effect removal is also great. 

 

With a Hakkon bow I find the following build best for damage: http://da-skills.net...111,00000,000,0

 

The real reason for getting throwing blades is getting cheapshot for the armor penetration passive (Cheap Shot). It is very useful for nightmare difficulty when something gets hit by 1 auto attack and loses most of it's armor. (3 Arrows with Hakkon Bow)

 

I don't have to hide. I just facetank/shotgun while relying on HoK and High Promotes to keep me alive. With 'Cheap Shot' and 'Pincushion' my auto attacks on the NM dragon ends up being around 4+K damage x 3 shots = 12K+ auto attacks (Hakkon)

 

I hope 'Explosive Shot' will be returned to its former glory. I also like Hunter builds with 'Stealth' and 'Full Draw'. Makes me feel like a sniper when a Despair Demon is hit by a 25+K critical (Eat it! Ate it!) 

 

I like it Mr. Kmeeg!! No way I'm giving up stealth, though. I like this one.

 

Build 1
 

 

..the upgrade for Throwing Blades has been fixed.

Throwing Blades deals a hell of a lot more damage now. Personally, I get between 2k for 1 blade to 22K for the 5 blades hitting the same target. So yes, it does add up to 20K+ damage.

 

I will be trying this on my next Hunter playthrough, the above sounds great!

 

Build 2

[MagicalMaster]

Explosive Shot deals 150% weapon damage twice.

No, it doesn't. That's the whole current problem.

You are talking about Stealth hiding, where a low lvl player survives by not doing much more than stay in stealth throughout the match. I do not approve of this strategy. Use it freely when playing with friends but don't do that in my room.

No, I'm not. Get hit by a Fire DoT? Stealth to remove it and keep fighting. Got a bunch of enemies who suddenly decide they want to have you for lunch? Drop into stealth when they get close, reposition, and keep fighting. You're literally 100% wrong on this.

Also, I don't approve of lame lines. Don't use those on these forums. Thanks!

I shall go ahead and assume he's referring to nullifying aggro, smart reviving, and more specifically, Lost In The Shadows' perk of removing all debuffs - i.e. fire and Terror screams. Getting hit by which is close to inevitable over the span of an entire match and a mathematical death sentence for low WP. Sure, it is always your own fault, and it isn't factually impossible to avoid, but let's be honest here. It happens. Often enough, to anyone.

You're making entirely too much sense, please throw in some inane comments and insults next time.

Not only can it be paired for an instant crit, but it's an immediate aggro drop. Not to run and hide for the entire match, but to give you some breathing room to: wait for a heavy damage ability to come off cool down (and let's not pretend this will be a long time, as full draw and leaping shot and explosive shot have short cool downs); to reposition, especially in the case of finding some cover from range mobs; etc.

You're also making too much sense. Get out of Yallegro's thread.

Point is your "goal" was not achieved. Explosive shot is a crucial and primary skill to the Archer and Hunter. They both use it for a minimum of their first 10+ levels, and many choose to keep it as a main ability in their rotation throughout the entirety of their build.

Ah, so Dragon Rage isn't a crucial and primary skill for the Reaver -- after all, she doesn't even get it until level 6+ so it fails the first half of your test (used for a minimum of first 10+ levels).

If that's not what you meant, kindly clarify, have to run for now.

[TheLeakestWink]

http://da-skills.net...110,00100,01d,1

 

Could give up Easy to Miss for Cheap Shot or Pincushion, but otherwise pretty married to this build. Leaping Shot for recovery from knockdown mostly negates the value of Stealth IMHO. Not necessary to get Cheap Shot for sunder due to frequency of Throwing Blades. Earliest points go to Leaping Shot (again, for recovery/survival), then Spike Trap (immediately upgraded for self res 2/2 bleeding), then TB +1, then FD.

[Proto]

Ah, so Dragon Rage isn't a crucial and primary skill for the Reaver -- after all, she doesn't even get it until level 6+ so it fails the first half of your test (used for a minimum of first 10+ levels).

If that's not what you meant, kindly clarify, have to run for now.

 

Grasping at straws, man. Why are we talking about another class, this time a non-bow user? Archer, Chain Lightning...now Dragon Rage. All in a thread about the Hunter. Obviously, Dragon Rage is going to be "more" crucial and primary to the Reaver than Explosive Shot is to the Hunter.

 

My statement about the minimum 10+ levels was just an example to show that the ability is used by every hunter during their progression, and while being used is effective/useful even to a point that some don't ever replace it. That part of the statement was never intended to set a parameter for what classifies a skill as "Crucial and Primary."

 

 I will reiterate this and leave it at that:

 

Point is your "goal" was not achieved. Explosive shot is a crucial and primary skill to the Archer and Hunter. They both use it for a minimum of their first 10+ levels, and many choose to keep it as a main ability in their rotation throughout the entirety of their build. 

 

If you're going to latch on to the "minimum of their first 10+ levels" and use that as a means to argue your point further, it just goes to show you have little ground left to stand on. 

 

Crucial: of great importance 

 

Primary: earliest in time or order of development.

 

Yes, explosive shot is crucial and primary for the Hunter. At least during the early levels of the class.

[Jay P]

Ah, so Dragon Rage isn't a crucial and primary skill for the Reaver -- after all, she doesn't even get it until level 6+ so it fails the first half of your test (used for a minimum of first 10+ levels).

If that's not what you meant, kindly clarify, have to run for now.

You're over-thinking this. I am not sure if it's because of some lingering dislike for Proto, or maybe just a misunderstanding.

Explosive shot, when not bugged, is an awesome starter ability as it does very good damage, decent aoe damage, and it a very reliable, short cooldown CC.

Even when bugged, it's passable damage for a starter ability, and still an awesome CC.

Either way, it feels like you are being disagreeable merely to be disagreeable, which perhaps is not your intention.

[Yallegro]

This is being a little reductive.

Not only can it be paired for an instant crit, but it's an immediate aggro drop. Not to run and hide for the entire match, but to give you some breathing room to: wait for a heavy damage ability to come off cool down (and let's not pretend this will be a long time, as full draw and leaping shot and explosive shot have short cool downs); to reposition, especially in the case of finding some cover from range mobs; etc.

And this is not even yet considering its application regarding dots and recovering from knockdowns and other CC.

I am going to take your advice and try TB next promote. Just not sure how much to commit to it with a single target bow. Also considering elemental mines, spike trap, poison cloud and hook and tackle. I'll play around on the talent calculators before I start leveling.

 

True but I can't list every consideration if I'm trying to keep it simple.

 

One of the 4 skill slots assigned to Stealth is a big sacrifice as the hunter has no way to just spam the other 3

 

It has to earn its place when competing with Fallback Plan, staggering traps and other stuns and knockdowns

 

Stealth can be very good but it also very easy to abuse and the abuser thinks he's doing fine while the team suffers.

 

I always equip Stealth, feel naked without it but I do rely on my triple arrows to justify the slot

 

Stealth can also not erase physical effects like knockdown, only elemental ones like chill or burning

 

 

I read someone saying that Full Draw and Throwing Blades have entirely different applications.

 

That's not exactly true, they're both there to do burst damage and Throwing Blades is a lot more reliable at that.

 

You may opt that the hunter can then snipe better but if you spec him like a sniper you'll have just created a weaker version of the archer when the hunter can be a very cool short-mid range bow user.

[Yallegro]

 

2. I still lol at people who cherry pick their damage comparisons. If Yarpen were still around he would attest to how unreliable throwing blades is in terms of target control and actual damage dealing. Look, I don't want to knock throwing blades, but both throwing blades and full draw have their downsides in doing what you want them to do. But I find it easier to deliver a full full draw than getting all your throwing blades to hit the same target for max damage. If ThirdRace wants to cherry pick and say his ideal scenario of throwing blades deals 22k or so while giving an unbelievable "average" of only 12k for full draw, then I say you are a master at throwing blades but need to l2p with full draw.

 

Mea culpa: I did not know they fixed the throwing blades upgrade.

 

There is no l2p Full Draw

 

I would have to spam this one ability all day to be even a little happy with my damage and I know from experience I will not get that.

 

Lesson: Do not take skills that are bad in non-ideal (stunning archers, melee attackers) situations

[Maracucho_Ve]

As a low promotion Hunter I need the stealth for the Aggro drop, Insta Crit, and being able to drop spike traps anywhere when stealth is just awesome.

 

Full Draw was good, I was hitting for 16K+, but because of the long cast I dropped it.

 

Throwing knifes was fun also, but sometimes it didnt hit the target I wanted.

 

Stealth + Ele mines hit for 5-8k each, but I have to place them carefully (sometimes I hit the saarebas and they just start flying lol?).

[Yallegro]

As a low promotion Hunter I need the stealth for the Aggro drop, Insta Crit, and being able to drop spike traps anywhere when stealth is just awesome.

 

Full Draw was good, I was hitting for 16K+, but because of the long cast I dropped it.

 

Throwing knifes was fun also, but sometimes it didnt hit the target I wanted.

 

Stealth + Ele mines hit for 5-8k each, but I have to place them carefully (sometimes I hit the saarebas and they just start flying lol?).

 

I can agree with that and Spike Trap has become very spammable

[Snakebite]

No, it doesn't. That's the whole current problem.

And yet, even after a 50% nerf, it is still better. Just admit it, you made a stupid claim about Chain Lightning being better than Explosive Shot. You even provided "math" to try to prove it. Even without taking into account Chain Lightnings inability to crit it still sucks.

[MagicalMaster]

Grasping at straws, man. Why are we talking about another class, this time a non-bow user? Archer, Chain Lightning...now Dragon Rage. All in a thread about the Hunter. Obviously, Dragon Rage is going to be "more" crucial and primary to the Reaver than Explosive Shot is to the Hunter.

Because you're trying to use primary/crucial in a nonsensical way and setting up a completely bizarre definition for it (which is easily checked by noting that Dragon Rage wouldn't meet your criteria). But apparently that's not what you meant.
 

If you're going to latch on to the "minimum of their first 10+ levels" and use that as a means to argue your point further, it just goes to show you have little ground left to stand on.

I "latched on" to half of your initial definition : /
 

Crucial: of great importance
 
Primary: earliest in time or order of development.

No, I was using those words as synonyms. Hence why I also used the term "keystone." And I *never* mentioned anything about certain levels, so why you would think "primary" was referring to time versus "First or highest in rank or importance" is beyond me. Especially in this context as it would mean something like Dragon Rage or Deathblow or Ambush/Broadsides or Static Cage or whatever would not count as primary abilities.

In other words, I'm talking about abilities that make you say "Yeah, that's a really important ability to have, typically critical for optimal play with the class." And the only reason I said "typically" versus "always" is that some classes have more than one playstyle. War Horn vs Devour is an example for Reaver -- people run with one or the other based on other factors but not with both. But people with War Horn can easily wish they had Devour for extra healing and people with Devour can easily wish they had War Horn for the CC/auto crits.

But Explosive Shot? Nothing so iconic or playstyle defining.

Prior to the nerf, was it a solid and useful skill? Yes.

This whole stupid side argument seems to have started when you claimed I was somehow comparing Archer to Hunter to figure out which was better or something...which I wasn't. My entire point from that, which you completely missed, is that Explosive Shot was not in a situation for *either* class where it was simply too powerful and had to be nerfed. And since those are the only two classes *with* Explosive Shot there's no reason to nerf it.

To show why this is important, look at Throwing Blades. Used to be Hunter only. Then Silent Sister got it. If the Devs decided Throwing Blades with all the SS passives was too good and had to be nerfed...well, that sucks for the Hunter to be nerfed due to the SS. But Explosive Shot wasn't in a position where it had to be nerfed for Archer *or* Hunter, so there's no potential collateral damage.
 

You're over-thinking this. I am not sure if it's because of some lingering dislike for Proto, or maybe just a misunderstanding.

I don't have a dislike for Proto, but I do dislike his earlier misunderstanding/claim that I was somehow comparing Hunter to Archer in terms of which was better or something.
 

Explosive shot, when not bugged, is an awesome starter ability as it does very good damage, decent aoe damage, and it a very reliable, short cooldown CC.

Even when bugged, it's passable damage for a starter ability, and still an awesome CC.

I generally agree on the first part.

I don't agree on the second part -- you'll do as much or more damage auto-attacking with the nerfed version. The animation for firing Explosive Shot is more like 1.5-2.0 seconds vs 1.0 seconds for auto attack. Go time it with a stopwatch if you don't believe me -- see how long it takes to auto attack 10 times. Then time how long it takes to open with Explosive Shot and auto attack nine times. So I don't agree that it's passable damage for a starter ability. I also don't think it's awesome CC -- knocking down a single target (the knockdown doesn't apply to the AoE) for a second or two every 12 seconds is not exactly awesome. Something like Winter's Grasp will Freeze the target for 4 seconds on a 16 second cooldown. The reason Explosive Shot was still good was due to the extra damage it did in addition to the CC.
 

One of the 4 skill slots assigned to Stealth is a big sacrifice as the hunter has no way to just spam the other 3

On the other hand, getting a Stealth damage-buffed Leaping Shot/Throwing Blades that auto-crits is amazing burst, doubly so with sunder on crit. Works extremely well for making the Hunter a short to mid ranged assassin that can still support from a distance when needed (not as much damage from range as an Archer but far more survivability and ability to flank priority targets...not as much melee burst as an Assassin but doesn't actually have to quite get in melee range and can do reasonably from mid to long range).
 

And yet, even after a 50% nerf, it is still better. Just admit it, you made a stupid claim about Chain Lightning being better than Explosive Shot. You even provided "math" to try to prove it. Even without taking into account Chain Lightnings inability to crit it still sucks.

First of all, I never said Chain Lightning was good. I said Chain Lightning was better than Explosive Shot. Which you should have realized from my statement of "Why is a starting DPS skill of a support mage and a tank mage significantly better (as in over twice as good versus two targets, over 50% better versus three targets, etc) than a starting DPS skill of rogues?" which clearly indicates I think Chain Lightning *shouldn't* be very good (since it's a DPS skill of a support mage and tank mage).

The only thing stupid about my claim was that I didn't realize the secondary hits of Chain Lightning couldn't crit (I never stacked crit chance on AW/Keeper but I still saw the odd crit from CL). But let's talk about your "math" then, shall we?
 

Explosive Shot deals 150% weapon damage twice. It has a fairly large (4 meter) AoE. The upgrade can up the damage to 250% weapon damage per hit. If you meet that requirement, you are hitting at least 4 enemies for 500% weapon damage each, for a total of at least 2000% weapon damage. Yes, that is actually more than the 1500% weapon damage Chain Lightning can do. You can double check my math if you don't believe it.

Since my whole spiel was about the nerfed version, your conclusion is off (laying aside that your 250% weapon damage part is wrong in the first place) -- hitting 4 enemies for 250% weapon damage is 1000% weapon damage (note that, per my post, 1000% weapon damage from a bow is usually better than 1500% weapon damage from a staff)...but this is assuming you hit 4+ enemies while Chain Lightning only needs 2 enemies within 9m of each other.

First of all, the AoE is not fairly large. I don't even want to count how many times I've fired Explosive Shot expecting to hit multiple enemies that seemed clustered but missed some of them in the blast. Which is especially problematic since, unlike most AoEs, you cannot target the blast. Two enemies 7 meters apart? No worries, I'll just drop the AoE right in the middle and hit both! Oh wait...can't do that. And from a mathematical perspective, remember that the area of a circle is proportional to radius squared (pi is a constant). 4*4 = 16. Something with a 6m AoE (like Firestorm or Pull of the Abyss) is 6*6 = 36 -- over twice the size. Then something like Static Cage is 9m which is 9*9 = 81 which is five times the area of Explosive Shot.

Two, you're not understanding how the upgrade works (and this thread doesn't indicate Explosive Shot is an exception to the rule). The upgrade is a 25% *damage* bonus per enemy, not a 25% *weapon damage* bonus per enemy. Anything that says "damage bonus" translates into "extra attack" (damage multiplier and attack bonus are added together then applied as a multiplier). So hitting 4+ enemies means you receive 100% more attack. If you had 0% attack from other sources then that would effectively double the damage to 300% weapon damage...but of course you *do* have attack from other sources. If you're at, say, 100% attack from gear, abilities, promotions, and buffs like Horn of Valor then 100% more attack is only a 50% increase in damage, or effectively 225% weapon damage. And it keeps getting relatively worse as your gear/promotes improve. It's still significant, mind you -- even at 200% base attack you're getting a 33% overall improvement for 200% weapon damage...but that's only 80% of the 250% weapon damage figure you cited.

[Jay P]

Because you're trying to use primary/crucial in a nonsensical way and setting up a completely bizarre definition for it (which is easily checked by noting that Dragon Rage wouldn't meet your criteria). But apparently that's not what you meant.


I "latched on" to half of your initial definition : /


No, I was using those words as synonyms. Hence why I also used the term "keystone." And I *never* mentioned anything about certain levels, so why you would think "primary" was referring to time versus "First or highest in rank or importance" is beyond me. Especially in this context as it would mean something like Dragon Rage or Deathblow or Ambush/Broadsides or Static Cage or whatever would not count as primary abilities.

In other words, I'm talking about abilities that make you say "Yeah, that's a really important ability to have, typically critical for optimal play with the class." And the only reason I said "typically" versus "always" is that some classes have more than one playstyle. War Horn vs Devour is an example for Reaver -- people run with one or the other based on other factors but not with both. But people with War Horn can easily wish they had Devour for extra healing and people with Devour can easily wish they had War Horn for the CC/auto crits.

But Explosive Shot? Nothing so iconic or playstyle defining.

Prior to the nerf, was it a solid and useful skill? Yes.

This whole stupid side argument seems to have started when you claimed I was somehow comparing Archer to Hunter to figure out which was better or something...which I wasn't. My entire point from that, which you completely missed, is that Explosive Shot was not in a situation for *either* class where it was simply too powerful and had to be nerfed. And since those are the only two classes *with* Explosive Shot there's no reason to nerf it.

To show why this is important, look at Throwing Blades. Used to be Hunter only. Then Silent Sister got it. If the Devs decided Throwing Blades with all the SS passives was too good and had to be nerfed...well, that sucks for the Hunter to be nerfed due to the SS. But Explosive Shot wasn't in a position where it had to be nerfed for Archer *or* Hunter, so there's no potential collateral damage.


I don't have a dislike for Proto, but I do dislike his earlier misunderstanding/claim that I was somehow comparing Hunter to Archer in terms of which was better or something.


I generally agree on the first part.

I don't agree on the second part -- you'll do as much or more damage auto-attacking with the nerfed version. The animation for firing Explosive Shot is more like 1.5-2.0 seconds vs 1.0 seconds for auto attack. Go time it with a stopwatch if you don't believe me -- see how long it takes to auto attack 10 times. Then time how long it takes to open with Explosive Shot and auto attack nine times. So I don't agree that it's passable damage for a starter ability. I also don't think it's awesome CC -- knocking down a single target (the knockdown doesn't apply to the AoE) for a second or two every 12 seconds is not exactly awesome. Something like Winter's Grasp will Freeze the target for 4 seconds on a 16 second cooldown. The reason Explosive Shot was still good was due to the extra damage it did in addition to the CC.


On the other hand, getting a Stealth damage-buffed Leaping Shot/Throwing Blades that auto-crits is amazing burst, doubly so with sunder on crit. Works extremely well for making the Hunter a short to mid ranged assassin that can still support from a distance when needed (not as much damage from range as an Archer but far more survivability and ability to flank priority targets...not as much melee burst as an Assassin but doesn't actually have to quite get in melee range and can do reasonably from mid to long range).


First of all, I never said Chain Lightning was good. I said Chain Lightning was better than Explosive Shot. Which you should have realized from my statement of "Why is a starting DPS skill of a support mage and a tank mage significantly better (as in over twice as good versus two targets, over 50% better versus three targets, etc) than a starting DPS skill of rogues?" which clearly indicates I think Chain Lightning *shouldn't* be very good (since it's a DPS skill of a support mage and tank mage).

The only thing stupid about my claim was that I didn't realize the secondary hits of Chain Lightning couldn't crit (I never stacked crit chance on AW/Keeper but I still saw the odd crit from CL). But let's talk about your "math" then, shall we?


Since my whole spiel was about the nerfed version, your conclusion is off (laying aside that your 250% weapon damage part is wrong in the first place) -- hitting 4 enemies for 250% weapon damage is 1000% weapon damage (note that, per my post, 1000% weapon damage from a bow is usually better than 1500% weapon damage from a staff)...but this is assuming you hit 4+ enemies while Chain Lightning only needs 2 enemies within 9m of each other.

First of all, the AoE is not fairly large. I don't even want to count how many times I've fired Explosive Shot expecting to hit multiple enemies that seemed clustered but missed some of them in the blast. Which is especially problematic since, unlike most AoEs, you cannot target the blast. Two enemies 7 meters apart? No worries, I'll just drop the AoE right in the middle and hit both! Oh wait...can't do that. And from a mathematical perspective, remember that the area of a circle is proportional to radius squared (pi is a constant). 4*4 = 16. Something with a 6m AoE (like Firestorm or Pull of the Abyss) is 6*6 = 36 -- over twice the size. Then something like Static Cage is 9m which is 9*9 = 81 which is five times the area of Explosive Shot.

Two, you're not understanding how the upgrade works (and this thread doesn't indicate Explosive Shot is an exception to the rule). The upgrade is a 25% *damage* bonus per enemy, not a 25% *weapon damage* bonus per enemy. Anything that says "damage bonus" translates into "extra attack" (damage multiplier and attack bonus are added together then applied as a multiplier). So hitting 4+ enemies means you receive 100% more attack. If you had 0% attack from other sources then that would effectively double the damage to 300% weapon damage...but of course you *do* have attack from other sources. If you're at, say, 100% attack from gear, abilities, promotions, and buffs like Horn of Valor then 100% more attack is only a 50% increase in damage, or effectively 225% weapon damage. And it keeps getting relatively worse as your gear/promotes improve. It's still significant, mind you -- even at 200% base attack you're getting a 33% overall improvement for 200% weapon damage...but that's only 80% of the 250% weapon damage figure you cited.

It seems very important to you that you are right.

So whatevs.

[Kenny Bania]

Sounds like OP has finally had a chance to try out the Danny Glover build, which I invented

 

FTFY

[Dieb]

Personally, I am fairly fond of those (on the off chance of those being copyright protected, know that I am Dickens-novella-level poor and am shiveringly clutching my flat cap with both dirty hands) If anyone ever wondered what I'm up to all day.

 

Personal Favourite - "Clear the LZ"

Availible at level 9, great fun & survivability, good against tough mobs, weak groups & especially Dragon battles.

 

Melee / CC

An alternative, but given the terrible way the Trapping tree is structured, a very late bloomer; good constant damage output

 

Nightmare build - Supporter / "Ninja Medic"

Should maybe say something more about this weird one: It's one method I found of being of value to a Nightmare group without an obscene amount of Promotions. The whole build is focused on obstructing/disabling enemies and supporting group members in a pickle. LS + Disable can take a tough enemy almost wholly out of the equation for 11 seconds. Spike Trap+ and Sleeping Powder+  both  do not break Stealth, and the latter grants an enormous tactical advantage when its AoE capabilities are used skillfully.

[MagicalMaster]

It seems very important to you that you are right.

It's important to me that I'm on the side of the facts. If you have math, logic, or some other type of proof to show that I am wrong then I will "switch sides" to be on the side that the facts support.

[TheThirdRace]

Spike Trap+ and Sleeping Powder+  both  do not break Stealth, and the latter grants an enormous tactical advantage when its AoE capabilities are used skillfully.

WHAT!!!!

Why Bioware insist on not telling us those things!!!