855 réponses à ce sujet

[correctamundo]

I don't agree with this.  In DAO you have a great five minute exposition that explains (just enough) what the universal threat is, why it's a threat, and what your basic place is in the world as part of this.  Not only that but the background quests help you define your background and personality brilliantly all while providing an excellent tutorial for the game itself before you reach the serious part of the game proper.

 

None of that is true in DAI.  You instead have a confusing one minute cut scene where you're running for your life...without knowing how or why or what anything is, and within 20 minutes you are introduced to five new characters which are supposed to be important to you.

 

No, DAI is much worse in this regard than DAO (although admittedly not as bad in this department as DA2).

 

I have read no books and have had no problem getting into any of the games. But maybe I'm just inhumanly smart then. And you can tell those five character to bugger of. Won't be much point in continuing the story though since they will be part of it. DAO was far worse when it came to forcing you into "awkward" relationships with characters who are supposed to be important to you. In one case you are even forced into marriage. As i recall all within 20 minutes. Go figure.

[vbibbi]

The Fallow Mire quest was decent but it costs 8 power to unlock the area so it wasn't worth a repeat for me. The things you find fulfilling or interesting are the things I think of as a boring chore. Killing groups of enemies and reading notes, it's not fun and doesn't make me care. Even if it did you can't deny that it breaks up the pacing of the game and kills the sense of urgency.

 

Let's compare the Fallow Mire to the Kocari Wilds. Both have little actual plot relevance beyond killing things and getting to the end of the map. Barely any NPC interactions and Kocari doesn't even allow for companion banters at this point in the game. But KW introduces us to several important characters and ends with two of the people we just fought alongside being killed. Emotional impact.

 

Fallow Mire, the only person we can speak to is Sky Watcher, and that's two dialogue options. We can't speak with the Avvar champion or his people, can't try to negotiate, or battle him one on one and the rest of the tribe permits the winner to leave. And when we rescue the troops we've come here for, they're nameless troops with no impact whatsoever. What if Scout Harding had been one of the captured troops instead, and if we chose not to do this quest, all further zone intros would be performed by some junior scout, a lamer replacement for Harding and we feel the loss from skipping this mission?

 

ETA: I wish I would have felt more strongly about the villagers notes we come across in the Mire. But most of the notes from the villagers are scattered out of order amongst the map and don't save to the codex, so by the time I come across the next one, I'm trying to remember which notes it's referring to. I wish all of the notes would have been recorded under the journal entry. Maybe having the game hold my hand and order the notes around would have made the backstory more meaningful to me. Or...have the requisition to find a cure to the disease be an actual quest, and next time we return to the Mire some villagers have returned and there is a lower chance of corpses spawning in the water. There is no impact to going into the map vs. skipping it.

[IanPolaris]

I have read no books and have had no problem getting into any of the games. But maybe I'm just inhumanly smart then. And you can tell those five character to bugger of. Won't be much point in continuing the story though since they will be part of it. DAO was far worse when it came to forcing you into "awkward" relationships with characters who are supposed to be important to you. In one case you are even forced into marriage. As i recall all within 20 minutes. Go figure.

 

There is no call to be snide about it.  I said that DAO does a better job at investing a new player into the world and character and I strongly believe it does.  As for a 'forced marriage', that wasn't uncommon in many cultures IRL and so discovering that arranged marriage is a part of the City Elf culture was a revelation and a welcome one (and you are free to object strongly during that background...it helps DEFINE who you are....something that DAI is sorely lacking IMO).  In fact I regard the female city elf background story in DAO as one of the best and certainly one of the ones that best helps you invest in your character....and you can do this all without any prior lore knowledge of the world.

[correctamundo]

Let's compare the Fallow Mire to the Kocari Wilds. Both have little actual plot relevance beyond killing things and getting to the end of the map. Barely any NPC interactions and Kocari doesn't even allow for companion banters at this point in the game. But KW introduces us to several important characters and ends with two of the people we just fought alongside being killed. Emotional impact.

 

Fallow Mire, the only person we can speak to is Sky Watcher, and that's two dialogue options. We can't speak with the Avvar champion or his people, can't try to negotiate, or battle him one on one and the rest of the tribe permits the winner to leave. And when we rescue the troops we've come here for, they're nameless troops with no impact whatsoever. What if Scout Harding had been one of the captured troops instead, and if we chose not to do this quest, all further zone intros would be performed by some junior scout, a lamer replacement for Harding and we feel the loss from skipping this mission?

 

ETA: I wish I would have felt more strongly about the villagers notes we come across in the Mire. But most of the notes from the villagers are scattered out of order amongst the map and don't save to the codex, so by the time I come across the next one, I'm trying to remember which notes it's referring to. I wish all of the notes would have been recorded under the journal entry. Maybe having the game hold my hand and order the notes around would have made the backstory more meaningful to me. Or...have the requisition to find a cure to the disease be an actual quest, and next time we return to the Mire some villagers have returned and there is a lower chance of corpses spawning in the water. There is no impact to going into the map vs. skipping it.

 

Gracefully skipping the ending af the Fallow mire questline ofc and ignoring the fact that Korcari wilds is a mainstory quest. But it is the usual modus operandi of "proving " how DAI is inferior.

[vbibbi]

Gracefully skipping the ending af the Fallow mire questline ofc and ignoring the fact that Korcari wilds is a mainstory quest. But it is the usual modus operandi of "proving " how DAI is inferior.

 

How am I skipping the end of the questline? We kill the champion, recruit Sky Watcher, free the troops. If you're referring to the judgement, I don't consider that the end of this quest. It's a related quest but in no way ties up the plot present in the Fallow Mire map. If the Movran judgement hadn't been included in the game, the Fallow Mire quest would have been exactly the same.

 

ETA: Now, if the person being judged at Skyhold was the Avvar champion we had fought, then that would be the end of the questline. But Movran is a comic relief flavor quest that in my opinion relates more to trying to characterize being the leader of the Inquisition and ruling Skyhold than it is a meaningful resolution to freeing your troops from Avvar raiders.

 

Edited again to add further thoughts...I would like to point out that it's not my intention to "prove" how much better DAO is than DAI. I see that it most likely comes across that way. But as I responded to Nefla's much-quoted post previously, I am writing constructive criticism and suggestions for what I would have liked to have seen, and using elements I enjoyed from DAO as a reference point. I clearly list several ideas that I feel would have improved the quest, rather than just say "this quest sucked, that zone was pointless, Korcari Wilds is so much better!" I am trying to voice how I think similar quests can be improved the next time around, in the hopes that I will enjoy DA4 more than DAI.

 

I wish posters who defend Bioware would actually respond to the constructive criticism, even if it's to say they don't agree with what is being suggested, rather than just ignore anything constructive and paint the entire post as attacking Bioware and having nothing worth responding to.

Modifié par vbibbi, 09 octobre 2015 - 12:03 .

[correctamundo]

There is no call to be snide about it.  I said that DAO does a better job at investing a new player into the world and character and I strongly believe it does.  As for a 'forced marriage', that wasn't uncommon in many cultures IRL and so discovering that arranged marriage is a part of the City Elf culture was a revelation and a welcome one (and you are free to object strongly during that background...it helps DEFINE who you are....something that DAI is sorely lacking IMO).  In fact I regard the female city elf background story in DAO as one of the best and certainly one of the ones that best helps you invest in your character....and you can do this all without any prior lore knowledge of the world.

 

It probably helps you but you're way is not the only way. I can define my character just fine within Thedas just fine without any prior knowledge of the world. In DAO as well as DAI. The beginning is different but just as good.

[correctamundo]

How am I skipping the end of the questline? We kill the champion, recruit Sky Watcher, free the troops. If you're referring to the judgement, I don't consider that the end of this quest. It's a related quest but in no way ties up the plot present in the Fallow Mire map. If the Movran judgement hadn't been included in the game, the Fallow Mire quest would have been exactly the same.

 

ETA: Now, if the person being judged at Skyhold was the Avvar champion we had fought, then that would be the end of the questline. But Movran is a comic relief flavor quest that in my opinion relates more to trying to characterize being the leader of the Inquisition and ruling Skyhold than it is a meaningful resolution to freeing your troops from Avvar raiders.

 

So Movran is entirely unrelated to his idiot son then?

[vbibbi]

So Movran is entirely unrelated to his idiot son then?

 

...no? I clearly said that he is related:

 

How am I skipping the end of the questline? We kill the champion, recruit Sky Watcher, free the troops. If you're referring to the judgement, I don't consider that the end of this quest. It's a related quest but in no way ties up the plot present in the Fallow Mire map. If the Movran judgement hadn't been included in the game, the Fallow Mire quest would have been exactly the same.

 

I said that it's a related quest, but it to me is not the closure of the Fallow Mire quest. Rather, it's an offshoot quest that happens as a result of completing Fallow Mire. If Movran was not included in the game, the Fallow Mire would still have felt just as complete.

[IanPolaris]

It probably helps you but you're way is not the only way. I can define my character just fine within Thedas just fine without any prior knowledge of the world. In DAO as well as DAI. The beginning is different but just as good.

 

I never said it was.  I said that DAO did a better job, not that all players needed it equally.  Just because you don't see or experience a flaw doesn't mean that the flaw doesn't exist.  The ultimate issue is that in any story it's far better to SHOW and not TELL and frankly it's something that BW has seemingly forgotten lately.  Sure you CAN make your own head-canon, but it's a lot better in general to allow the player to DEFINE his character by SHOWING (ie playing those choices) rather than telling it (in a codex entry).

[correctamundo]

...no? I clearly said that he is related:

 

 

I said that it's a related quest, but it to me is not the closure of the Fallow Mire quest. Rather, it's an offshoot quest that happens as a result of completing Fallow Mire. If Movran was not included in the game, the Fallow Mire would still have felt just as complete.

 

It is as part of the Lost souls quest as much as Morrigan and Flemeth is of Korcari wilds. You can't have Movran without Hand of Korth. If you do the lost souls quest you will get the goat attack. Emotional impact.

[Nefla]

I like notes and codex entries when they're used to enhance a quest ex: you're hunting a werewolf and you find his journals scattered around along the way but you still have to track him, talk to him, fight him, and have a choice of what to do with him. What I don't like is when a note or codex entry is the meat of the quest ex: you find a note from one smuggler to another telling them the goods are under a certain tree, then you go to the tree. The second type of quest can repeat the step from note to note as many times as it wants, it will never be fun for me.

[correctamundo]

I never said it was.  I said that DAO did a better job, not that all players needed it equally.  Just because you don't see or experience a flaw doesn't mean that the flaw doesn't exist.  The ultimate issue is that in any story it's far better to SHOW and not TELL and frankly it's something that BW has seemingly forgotten lately.  Sure you CAN make your own head-canon, but it's a lot better in general to allow the player to DEFINE his character by SHOWING (ie playing those choices) rather than telling it (in a codex entry).

 

Just because you see it as a flaw does not make it so. You are welcome to your opinion though.

[correctamundo]

I like notes and codex entries when they're used to enhance a quest ex: you're hunting a werewolf and you find his journals scattered around along the way but you still have to track him, talk to him, fight him, and have a choice of what to do with him. What I don't like is when a note or codex entry is the meat of the quest ex: you find a note from one smuggler to another telling them the goods are under a certain tree, then you go to the tree. The second type of quest can repeat the step from note to note as many times as it wants, it will never be fun for me.

 

I don't particularly enjoy those specific quests either but I do like crazy mysteries like beacons in the dark even if I don't deep conversations with the mad mage. Would be nice with a cinematic convo before the inevitable fight though.

[Sifr]

I don't agree with this.  In DAO you have a great five minute exposition that explains (just enough) what the universal threat is, why it's a threat, and what your basic place is in the world as part of this.  Not only that but the background quests help you define your background and personality brilliantly all while providing an excellent tutorial for the game itself before you reach the serious part of the game proper.

 

None of that is true in DAI.  You instead have a confusing one minute cut scene where you're running for your life...without knowing how or why or what anything is, and within 20 minutes you are introduced to five new characters which are supposed to be important to you.

 

No, DAI is much worse in this regard than DAO (although admittedly not as bad in this department as DA2).

 

While Origins is undoubtably a great game, let's not view it entirely with nostalgia goggles, it has both strengths and weaknesses.

 

It's true that the game does well to set up the premise, the various backgrounds and allow us time to figure out who our character is. It definitely is the best game in the series when it comes to roleplay and it's a shame that recent games have made the roleplaying part of RPGs increasingly more of an artefact title.

 

But let's not forget, the real game does not actually start for about 5-6 hours, when we finally leave Ostagar.

 

For the most part, the first hour or two will barely matter for the majority of the game and with the exception of Alistair and Morrigan, we don't meet any characters who will feature (or even be alive) for the rest of the game. Having replayed the first part of the game several times this week, while it's immersive and great fun to play, it's definitely the slowest opening of all three games thus far.

 

In contrast, Inquisition sets up the context and entire premise of the game quickly, trading in the narration of DAO and DA2 for a more "show, don't tell" apporach, where the necessary exposition occurs as we go through the prologue.

 

This isn't new for the series, as Awakening and DA2 started in very much the same manner. I can see why some might not like being thrown into the deep end right away, but it does at least thematically work to allow us to understand our protagonist's own confusion during the prologue. For the Warden-Commander, they needed to know why the Darkspawn are seemingly capable of intelligent thought, for Hawke, it was about finding some way to escape the horde and get to Kirkwall, and for the Inquisitor, it was to clear their name, figure out the mark and close the Breach.

 

But rather than not connecting with the main characters we meet during Inquisition's prologue, who are written well enough that we can easily connect to them, I think Inquisition suffers more when it comes to making us actually care about or protagonist.

 

People give Hawke a ton of grief because of DA2's shortcomings, but it was nice to have a protagonist who had a set background that we knew a lot about, as well as a personality that we could pick and was (mostly) consistent throughout the game.

 

When it comes to the Inquisitor however, aside from some background text, we really have little idea who was this random schmuck before we meet them, since conversations about themselves and their personal history are few and far between. I am all in favour of more roleplay again, but I shouldn't have to headcanon everything about a character because they are such a blank slate.

[vbibbi]

It is as part of the Lost souls quest as much as Morrigan and Flemeth is of Korcari wilds. You can't have Movran without Hand of Korth. If you do the lost souls quest you will get the goat attack. Emotional impact.

 

Yes, but as you pointed out, Korcari is a main plot so must be done in order to reach Morrigan and Flemeth and advance the story, and since Flemeth has the Warden treaties, they actually tie in to the original reason we're there. Fallow Mire can be completed without judging Movran, and his appearance has no relation to the Inquisition recovering its troops. Technically you could ignore his judgement the entire game and have no impact on the consequences from Fallow Mire.

[vbibbi]

I don't particularly enjoy those specific quests either but I do like crazy mysteries like beacons in the dark even if I don't deep conversations with the mad mage. Would be nice with a cinematic convo before the inevitable fight though.

 

Agreed, that was a creative way to provide the toxin recipe, I thought, and a mini story to show how the Breach is encouraging more and more demonic activity amongst mages.

[Nefla]

I don't particularly enjoy those specific quests either but I do like crazy mysteries like beacons in the dark even if I don't deep conversations with the mad mage. Would be nice with a cinematic convo before the inevitable fight though.

Not being able to talk to all the random people we have to kill as part of a quest (mages and templars especially) was one of my biggest disappointments with the sidequests

[IanPolaris]

Sifr,

 

I am NOT looking at DAO through "nostalgia" glasses.  I am playing it side by side with DAI and the differences are clear.  One of ME3's big problems was throwing the new playing completely into the action without enough backstory or the time to really buy into the world.  DAI has the same problem (as did DA2).  It's not fair to compare to DAO: Awakening because that was a direct part and extension of DAO (something not done anymore) and so it was never expected to stand alone.

 

The fact is that unless you are already familiar with the DA universe (and for some even then) the player is thrown into the deep end without enough time or incentive to really buy into the world or their own character.  It's something that DAO did brilliantly.

[IanPolaris]

Just because you see it as a flaw does not make it so. You are welcome to your opinion though.

 

It's pretty well universally recognized that it's NOT a good idea to tell people and not show.  It's also generally considered poor form to throw a new player into the full mix without giving them time to relate to the world.  Remember that the new player has to learn the mechanic of the game as well as buy into the world (and every game is slightly different).  Throwing them directly into the action with little or no exposition harms the ability of a new player to buy into the world because they have to struggle to learn the new mechanic immediately.  ME3 had the same issue (it's not the biggest issue with ME3 but it IS an aknowledged flaw).

[Elhanan]

It's pretty well universally recognized that it's NOT a good idea to tell people and not show.  It's also generally considered poor form to throw a new player into the full mix without giving them time to relate to the world.  Remember that the new player has to learn the mechanic of the game as well as buy into the world (and every game is slightly different).  Throwing them directly into the action with little or no exposition harms the ability of a new player to buy into the world because they have to struggle to learn the new mechanic immediately.  ME3 had the same issue (it's not the biggest issue with ME3 but it IS an aknowledged flaw).

Perhaps, but there are also examples where written text can produce some impactful moments, and this includes DA2 and DAI. One quest had a letter describing the immoral actions of Templars; what I recall from that quest, and not the visuals.

And The Keep is still available for those wishing to gain more lore intel into the game. And it is free.

[Al Foley]

It's pretty well universally recognized that it's NOT a good idea to tell people and not show.  It's also generally considered poor form to throw a new player into the full mix without giving them time to relate to the world.  Remember that the new player has to learn the mechanic of the game as well as buy into the world (and every game is slightly different).  Throwing them directly into the action with little or no exposition harms the ability of a new player to buy into the world because they have to struggle to learn the new mechanic immediately.  ME3 had the same issue (it's not the biggest issue with ME3 but it IS an aknowledged flaw).

Except technically that is not what they did.  I mean technically you are right they did throw us into the action.  But right afterwards they allowed you one hell of a chance to breathe.  The Hinterlands/ Haven in general where you could spend all your time acclimating to the world and the game play.  Asking questions, reading, doing quests.  

 

Also its a bit odd that you consider this a flaw considering most popular pieces of fiction do throw you into the action first with narry and explanation.  Star Wars, and A Song of Ice and Fire are the two examples that leap instantly to mind.  All the acclamating come later. 

[IanPolaris]

Perhaps, but there are also examples where written text can produce some impactful moments, and this includes DA2 and DAI. One quest had a letter describing the immoral actions of Templars; what I recall from that quest, and not the visuals.

And The Keep is still available for those wishing to gain more lore intel into the game. And it is free.

 

Yes, but SHOWING is almost always the preferable option.  Now you can't show everything (at least not realistically) but when it comes to a ROLE-playing game where the central focus should be on your character, then all effort should be made to encourage the player to buy into his (or her) character, and the world and this is best done by showing....and by not overloading the player with sudden action they have no reason to relate to (esp when they are still presumably learning the game).  I mentioned DAO, but I also point out that ME and ME2 did this well, both having extended exposition where you could make meaningful decisions and learn (and buy into) your character and world before being thrown to the wolves.  DAI falls short in this regard (as did ME3).

[Elhanan]

Yes, but SHOWING is almost always the preferable option.  Now you can't show everything (at least not realistically) but when it comes to a ROLE-playing game where the central focus should be on your character, then all effort should be made to encourage the player to buy into his (or her) character, and the world and this is best done by showing....and by not overloading the player with sudden action they have no reason to relate to (esp when they are still presumably learning the game).  I mentioned DAO, but I also point out that ME and ME2 did this well, both having extended exposition where you could make meaningful decisions and learn (and buy into) your character and world before being thrown to the wolves.  DAI falls short in this regard (as did ME3).

Don't buy it, as this is a subjective preference; not a fact. And as one that does not read the longer entries, I still have plenty of surrounding stimuli from which to RP the character. And in PnP, a vast majority of RPG's is about being told, and without that success, there would likely not be cRPG's now.

[IanPolaris]

Except technically that is not what they did.  I mean technically you are right they did throw us into the action.  But right afterwards they allowed you one hell of a chance to breathe.  The Hinterlands/ Haven in general where you could spend all your time acclimating to the world and the game play.  Asking questions, reading, doing quests.  

 

Also its a bit odd that you consider this a flaw considering most popular pieces of fiction do throw you into the action first with narry and explanation.  Star Wars, and A Song of Ice and Fire are the two examples that leap instantly to mind.  All the acclamating come later. 

 

Popular Fiction =/= Good Roleplaying game.  There are many tropes in fiction that work well in fiction but are a DISASTER if you try to use them in an RPG (I know I've run into a few issues that way when I DM).  In this case being thrown into the action is OK for a story (in media res it's called) but not an RPG.  After all in a story, you don't (presumablely) have to learn to read differently with each book....but that's exactly what you have to do with games.

 

Also, you get five critical characters within the first 20 mins and have to fight a MASSIVELY powerful Pride Demon all before you even learn why you should care.  I almost quit when I lost four straight characters before I realized that you have to destroy the shade swarms when fighting the Pride Demon.  That's an example of how thowing someone new into the action is a disservice especially if you want them to relate to the world and character.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

The only failure with DA;I is how the writers projected themselves too much into the Inquisitor - or how THEY wanted the Inquisitor to be, imo. Zero dark/evil options. Can't side with tevinter ideology or support slavery, cant try to attempt joining Cory. Cant enter the black city (or atleast try). 

 

DA:I is a fantastic game and far from a failure. It is a pretty grand accomplishment imo. They just failed miserably when it comes to letting the player decide who their Inquisitor would be. All roads leads to the selfless hero with a high moral compass. Any attempt to be morally gray is futile.