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[Elhanan]

If popularity is a measure of artistic quality then CoD must have an amazing story, Justin Beiber is a musical genius, and poptarts are a gourmet food. Also I didn't mention sidequests, I'm talking about the main plot which was disjointed, had no sense of urgency, no balance between triumph and tragedy, a generic "ancient evil" antagonist, and was FULL of "show, don't tell." We're told that Celine is a master manipulator, but all she does in the game is stand around, seduce a guard for information, and not see her cousin's betrayal at all. She's not a master anything, she's a useless damsel.

Not only popularity, but critical acclaim. But you are correct; these do not define what the indv will find rewarding. You do not, and I do, as well as at least 130 others. I can live with that. Enjoy the show and tell....

[Al Foley]

What was it about Inquisition that left that impression on you? I liked the sequence from the battle of Haven to the naming of the inquisitor. There were quite a few companion quest scenes that made me laugh but that and the scene where Solas breaks up with Lavellan were the only ones that made me feel something else.

Well that scene is mainly the top of the cake.  And personally by itself that whole sequence probably makes the game for me.  Life saving that one was.  Life changing.  But in addition to that you had the revelation of what the Wardens were up to in Adamant, The revelation of what happened to the Ancient Elves's.  Flemeth's identity. Solas's identity.  

 

Then you had Dorian's personal story arc and quest, his voice acting is phenomal and it really challenged my opinion on a lot of things.  Cole's mission was positively heart felt and gut wrenching.  Cassandra's speech...you know the one...and her entire world view.  Probably the first time I have actually fallen for a fictional character.  Both her and Cullen's romance arcs were fantastic.  And Thom Rainier's full story arc may be the best in the entire game.  

 

The general game play, the combat.  Going around more then one corner and my mouth opening at the scenery before me.  

 

All three of the end scenes in each DLC.  Meeting Ameridan, talking to Valta, the positive spring of lore information spewing from Solas's mouth and the Inquisitor's final speech.  

[correctamundo]

McStabby is awesome as well =)

[Al Foley]

McStabby is awesome as well =)

McStabby?  

 

Spoiler for Trespasser just in case.  

 

Spoiler

I lost it when Solas said that they killed Mythal. Just the way he said it, from that moment on I was an emotional wreck. Which is kinda odd since I did not care about Mythal per se and did not feel invested, but the way he said it left me with a profound sense of sadness and just...a little bit of internal rage like Charleton Heston at the end of Planet of the Apes. I did not stop being an emotional wreck until five minutes after the credits ended.

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

McStabby?  

 

Spoiler for Trespasser just in case.  

 

Spoiler

I lost it when Solas said that they killed Mythal. Just the way he said it, from that moment on I was an emotional wreck. Which is kinda odd since I did not care about Mythal per se and did not feel invested, but the way he said it left me with a profound sense of sadness and just...a little bit of internal rage like Charleton Heston at the end of Planet of the Apes. I did not stop being an emotional wreck until five minutes after the credits ended.

You are familiar with Charleton Heston. Impressive. 

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

Not only popularity, but critical acclaim. But you are correct; these do not define what the indv will find rewarding. You do not, and I do, as well as at least 130 others. I can live with that. Enjoy the show and tell....

If you do not think an argumentum ad populum is a valid argument, why did you use it in the first place?

[Al Foley]

You are familiar with Charleton Heston. Impressive. 

Thanks, I think.

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

Thanks, I think.

I was surprised since most young people don't know him these days but then again, maybe you are not young?

[Al Foley]

I was surprised since most young people don't know him these days but then again, maybe you are not young?

I am youngish.  Ick.  Anyways though I do know him from a few things.  Mainly from the scene at the end of Planet of the Apes though.  

[Abyss108]

In Origins you started off IN that circle tower, you got to see some of what life was like for mages and especially students. You got to see what templars were, what their role was, you got to talk to other students and mages and learn more, you even got to take your graduation test and learn the dangers of being a mage etc...we didn't get to do any of that with the conclave or Justinia or the mages and templars who gathered to make peace or even our specific backgrounds. You really don't see the difference (whether you enjoyed it or not) between getting to be a part of something and see and do vs being told "hey there was this explosion at this peace conference and you were there and everyone died?"

 

I do see a difference.

 

Th people in the tower were supposed to be your friends/family. The templars are your enemy. These were all people your character was supposed to know and care about. So the game takes the time to try to build that up.

 

The people at the Conclave were a bunch of strangers you were never expected to care about. You are not supposed to care about them in the same way as those from origins. They are not your friends, not your family, not your enemies. You are expected to care about their deaths as much as you would any other strangers death. You are expected to care about the explosion because of the mark on your hand. If you game kept giving you multiple options to act like you knew those people, if Justinia was supposed to be your friend, if an old enemy died in there, I'd agree not including that build up would be bad. But they are supposed to be a bunch of strangers, so they game keeps them that way.

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

I am youngish.  Ick.  Anyways though I do know him from a few things.  Mainly from the scene at the end of Planet of the Apes though.  

Rejoice in your youth young one; it does not last long.

[correctamundo]

McStabby?  

 

 

A hardened badass Sister Nightingale =)

[correctamundo]

I do see a difference.

 

Th people in the tower were supposed to be your friends/family. The templars are your enemy. These were all people your character was supposed to know and care about. So the game takes the time to try to build that up.

 

The people at the Conclave were a bunch of strangers you were never expected to care about. You are not supposed to care about them in the same way as those from origins. They are not your friends, not your family, not your enemies. You are expected to care about their deaths as much as you would any other strangers death. You are expected to care about the explosion because of the mark on your hand. If you game kept giving you multiple options to act like you knew those people, if Justinia was supposed to be your friend, if an old enemy died in there, I'd agree not including that build up would be bad. But they are supposed to be a bunch of strangers, so they game keeps them that way.

 

And you are shown the mark, the  breach, the demons falling from it, the "meteors", the fade rifts opening, the despair, the fighting.

[Elhanan]

If you do not think an argumentum ad populum is a valid argument, why did you use it in the first place?

In context if one cares to go back a page, I was defending an opinion that DAI had bad storytelling. These GOTY awards amongst others would seem to contend that POV.

[Al Foley]

A hardened badass Sister Nightingale =)

And I disagree.  Borderline character assassination.  imo.  

[Elhanan]

And I disagree.  Borderline character assassination.  imo.

Not if one has seen this side of her before. She seems much like the hardened Assassin one may unlock in DAO, and somewhat like her appearance in DA2 via Exiled Prince DLC, I believe.

But I also prefer her softer side, though as a hardened Divine, she can take care of her opposition fairly well.

[Al Foley]

Not if one has seen this side of her before. She seems much like the hardened Assassin one may unlock in DAO, and somewhat like her appearance in DA2 via Exiled Prince DLC, I believe.

But I also prefer her softer side, though as a hardened Divine, she can take care of her opposition fairly well.

Perhaps.  Meh like I said borderline and I have made peace with it I just wish she did not turn into a mustache twirling villain if she is made hardened. 

[correctamundo]

And I disagree.  Borderline character assassination.  imo.  

 

Yes it is rough, but it has been fun to play my little badass Cadash who told her to kill Butler and sanctioned killing Nathalie. But I tend to agree otherwise, most of my Inkys will soften her. No doubt. And she is real tough in IHW as well =).

[Majestic Jazz]

Don't require my opinion; over 130+ GOTY awards among others do that well enough. And as explained, many of the entries do show via descriptions. Much prefer these entries for side quests rather than time consuming cut-scenes.

 

What is it with you about these GOTY Awards? Everytime someone displays criticism towards DAI you throw out the, "Well it was the recipient of 130+ GOTY Awards...." as if that is supposed to serve as some type of shield against criticism. By your logic, DAI must be a perfect game WITH NO FLAWS because it was awarded 130+ GOTY awards. By your logic, anyone who shows any dislike/criticism towards DAI does not know what they are talking about because uh....130+ GOTY awards. By your logic, Bioware should not listen to the negative feedback regarding DAI when crafting DA4 because um well.....130+ GOTY awards.

 

Look, we get it, you are big on headcannon in RPGs and if it were up to you, we would have no voiced protagonist, there would be no set background for the protagonist, there will be ZERO cutscenes and so on. We get it, DAI is a great example of the type of storytelling/RPG experience that you expect in an RPG and it is understandable that you will defend DAI to the very end because of that. We get it and there is nothing wrong with that. However, what gets old is when things get thick and people start to pile on DAI, you use the 130+ GOTY Awards and somethings "Most Successful Bioware launch ever" claims as some sort of defense that since DAI got 130+ GOTY awards, any criticism against the storytelling techniques is invalid which is an illogical argument. I can understand if someone said, "DAI isn't a popular game" or "Nobody liked DAI", then in those instances it would make sense to use the GOTY awards as proof that DAI is a well received game and so on. But that isn't the argument that Nefla and others are making. They aren't denying the fact that DAI was a popular game and a critical as well as financial success, hell, even I would admit that even though it pains me. No, what Nefla and others are saying is that despite the success of DAI both financially and critically, there were still some flaws that many owners of DAI have noticed and hope to be addressed in DA4 and one of those concerns is that DAI was heavy on the "tell but not show" style of storytelling. I do not care if DAI won 300+ GOTY Awards and was Electronic Art's highest selling game of all time, that does not make the game perfect nor does it shield the game from criticism. 

 

Finally, if you think that Bioware is just going to copy and paste DAI's approach when crafting DA4 just cause DAI was a success, then again, you really are clueless. What makes Bioware a great developer is that they aren't static. They will take BOTH positive AND negative feedback from their past work while creating their current work. When DA4 is being developed, assuming we get a DA4, they will look at the things that MOST/MANY people liked about DAI and try to recreate that experience again in DA4. However on the flip side, they will look at the things that MOST/MANY people disliked about DAI and either try to polish it better or just eliminate it all together with the latter being what they usually do. Bioware is not going to get big headed, sit back and put their feet on the table and say, "Guys, DAI won 130+ GOTY Awards so we do not need to honor any of the feedback recieved from DAI (As well as MEA possibly) while developing DA4 because it was a financial and critical success. So team, everything we did with DAI, we are just going to copy and paste that over to DA4 and make DA4 basically DAI with better graphics." Lol, do you honestly think Bioware will take that approach?

 

Again, we all get it by now, you are big on head cannon and DAI is the Bioware game that required the most headcannon in a long time. You would have to go all the way back to the BG or NWN days to find a similar experience to DAI as starting with KOTOR, things got very cinematic and "set characters" that sort of blocked head cannon. So yeah, we understand that you do not want Bioware to heed our concerns because you would hope that DA4 is very similar to DAI in that regard so you will fight this argument as long as the argument exist. That is fine, but please do no act like just because DAI got many accolades that somehow that protects DAI from criticism, means that there is absolutely nothing that could be improved on or could have been done better, or that somehow Bioware will actively ignore any feedback.

 

[AlanC9]

The problem with this thread started with the dopey title, I think.

[Elhanan]

What is it with you about these GOTY Awards? Everytime someone displays criticism towards DAI you throw out the, "Well it was the recipient of 130+ GOTY Awards...." as if that is supposed to serve as some type of shield against criticism. By your logic, DAI must be a perfect game WITH NO FLAWS because it was awarded 130+ GOTY awards. By your logic, anyone who shows any dislike/criticism towards DAI does not know what they are talking about because uh....130+ GOTY awards. By your logic, Bioware should not listen to the negative feedback regarding DAI when crafting DA4 because um well.....130+ GOTY awards.
 
Look, we get it, you are big on headcannon in RPGs and if it were up to you, we would have no voiced protagonist, there would be no set background for the protagonist, there will be ZERO cutscenes and so on. We get it, DAI is a great example of the type of storytelling/RPG experience that you expect in an RPG and it is understandable that you will defend DAI to the very end because of that. We get it and there is nothing wrong with that. However, what gets old is when things get thick and people start to pile on DAI, you use the 130+ GOTY Awards and somethings "Most Successful Bioware launch ever" claims as some sort of defense that since DAI got 130+ GOTY awards, any criticism against the storytelling techniques is invalid which is an illogical argument. I can understand if someone said, "DAI isn't a popular game" or "Nobody liked DAI", then in those instances it would make sense to use the GOTY awards as proof that DAI is a well received game and so on. But that isn't the argument that Nefla and others are making. They aren't denying the fact that DAI was a popular game and a critical as well as financial success, hell, even I would admit that even though it pains me. No, what Nefla and others are saying is that despite the success of DAI both financially and critically, there were still some flaws that many owners of DAI have noticed and hope to be addressed in DA4 and one of those concerns is that DAI was heavy on the "tell but not show" style of storytelling. I do not care if DAI won 300+ GOTY Awards and was Electronic Art's highest selling game of all time, that does not make the game perfect nor does it shield the game from criticism. 
 
Finally, if you think that Bioware is just going to copy and paste DAI's approach when crafting DA4 just cause DAI was a success, then again, you really are clueless. What makes Bioware a great developer is that they aren't static. They will take BOTH positive AND negative feedback from their past work while creating their current work. When DA4 is being developed, assuming we get a DA4, they will look at the things that MOST/MANY people liked about DAI and try to recreate that experience again in DA4. However on the flip side, they will look at the things that MOST/MANY people disliked about DAI and either try to polish it better or just eliminate it all together with the latter being what they usually do. Bioware is not going to get big headed, sit back and put their feet on the table and say, "Guys, DAI won 130+ GOTY Awards so we do not need to honor any of the feedback recieved from DAI (As well as MEA possibly) while developing DA4 because it was a financial and critical success. So team, everything we did with DAI, we are just going to copy and paste that over to DA4 and make DA4 basically DAI with better graphics." Lol, do you honestly think Bioware will take that approach?
 
Again, we all get it by now, you are big on head cannon and DAI is the Bioware game that required the most headcannon in a long time. You would have to go all the way back to the BG or NWN days to find a similar experience to DAI as starting with KOTOR, things got very cinematic and "set characters" that sort of blocked head cannon. So yeah, we understand that you do not want Bioware to heed our concerns because you would hope that DA4 is very similar to DAI in that regard so you will fight this argument as long as the argument exist. That is fine, but please do no act like just because DAI got many accolades that somehow that protects DAI from criticism, means that there is absolutely nothing that could be improved on or could have been done better, or that somehow Bioware will actively ignore any feedback.

Asked; answered.

When those that attempt to demean the quality of the writing, storytelling, etc, these Awards appear to indicate that those in and outside of the industry differ.

[Majestic Jazz]

Asked; answered.

When those that attempt to demean the quality of the writing, storytelling, etc, these Awards appear to indicate that those in and outside of the industry differ.

 

But that does not mean that the approach to the storytelling could be improved on in the next game. You seem like because of those 130+ GOTY Awards, then that somehow meant that the "tell and not show" method was a hit with everyone which isn't true. Have you ever considered that DAI probably got those awards for OTHER reasons and not because of the "tell and not show" approach?

 

Of course there will always be differing opinions. However, you love to throw those 130+ Awards out all the time as some sort of shield which is just illogical. Yes, DAI was a financial and critical success. But that does not mean that there could have been some aspects to DAI that either fell short, or could be worked on/improved upon in DA4 or other future Bioware titles for that matter.

[Nefla]

I do see a difference.

 

Th people in the tower were supposed to be your friends/family. The templars are your enemy. These were all people your character was supposed to know and care about. So the game takes the time to try to build that up.

 

The people at the Conclave were a bunch of strangers you were never expected to care about. You are not supposed to care about them in the same way as those from origins. They are not your friends, not your family, not your enemies. You are expected to care about their deaths as much as you would any other strangers death. You are expected to care about the explosion because of the mark on your hand. If you game kept giving you multiple options to act like you knew those people, if Justinia was supposed to be your friend, if an old enemy died in there, I'd agree not including that build up would be bad. But they are supposed to be a bunch of strangers, so they game keeps them that way.

The backgrounds state that you are there with people you know (aside from the Dalish elf I think). The human rogue/warrior is even supposed to be there with family members. The difference is we never see them. Relying on the human instinct to care about the death of others doesn't work when those dead people aren't real and aren't shown. BioWare does nothing to make it real or make any of it hit home. It was like playing a game where the protagonist survived their ship being wrecked in a storm and was the only survivor. Instead of showing the storm, she ship breaking apart and going down, the crew members' fear and desperation, people dying, the game starts with the player sleeping in a shack on the beach and the fisherman there tells them "hey bro, you're the only survivor of a shipwreck, let's go look at the debris." Are you really arguing that this is good storytelling? That it's the best it could have possibly been?

 

When I watched the demo before the game came out it was the entire intro and I thought "this is really abrupt and amateurish" and it didn't hook me in the slightest but I assumed there was more to it. I was wrong.

[Elhanan]

But that does not mean that the approach to the storytelling could be improved on in the next game. You seem like because of those 130+ GOTY Awards, then that somehow meant that the "tell and not show" method was a hit with everyone which isn't true. Have you ever considered that DAI probably got those awards for OTHER reasons and not because of the "tell and not show" approach?
 
Of course there will always be differing opinions. However, you love to throw those 130+ Awards out all the time as some sort of shield which is just illogical. Yes, DAI was a financial and critical success. But that does not mean that there could have been some aspects to DAI that either fell short, or could be worked on/improved upon in DA4 or other future Bioware titles for that matter.

And there will always be those that nit and pick it apart; will leave that to them, and continue to play and enjoy the games themselves.

[Abyss108]

The backgrounds state that you are there with people you know (aside from the Dalish elf I think). The human rogue/warrior is even supposed to be there with family members. The difference is we never see them. Relying on the human instinct to care about the death of others doesn't work when those dead people aren't real and aren't shown. BioWare does nothing to make it real or make any of it hit home. It was like playing a game where the protagonist survived their ship being wrecked in a storm and was the only survivor. Instead of showing the storm, she ship breaking apart and going down, the crew members' fear and desperation, people dying, the game starts with the player sleeping in a shack on the beach and the fisherman there tells them "hey bro, you're the only survivor of a shipwreck, let's go look at the debris." Are you really arguing that this is good storytelling? That it's the best it could have possibly been?

 

When I watched the demo before the game came out it was the entire intro and I thought "this is really abrupt and amateurish" and it didn't hook me in the slightest but I assumed there was more to it. I was wrong.

 

No I agree its terrible if you were supposed to be there with people you knew. If that's true - I didn't know that was an option.

 

I've only played Elf, where you are a complete outsider who doesn't know anyone, and the game never told me I was supposed to care about anyone who died, only about how it affected me. I assumed it was the same for a human, and you also wouldn't be expected to know anyone there. If the game tells you that you knew people there, that seems like a pretty big oversight.