855 réponses à ce sujet

[Al Foley]

Oh definitely, I don't mind hiding Cory's identity for a while. We could have still met Justinia without revealing the flashback of the explosion, we would just meet her at a separate instance at the Conclave.

 

 

Random tangent, but a thought just occurred. What could have been cool is if the Conclave had us doing a series of tasks to help people, including the Grey Wardens. Somehow, the PC is responsible for securing a private audience with the Wardens and the Divine. So we inadvertently ARE partially responsible for her death by allowing Cory access to her. That would help explain how the Wardens got her alone, and why we were in the vicinity. We would find this out in the Fade memories, and could then roleplay feigning ignorance about this revelation or come clean to Cassandra and admit that we had a part to play in the explosion. Of course, I'm sure this could be seen as character assassination to people, or railroading the player into a negative outcome, like Anders and the chantry.

I like it.  And given the PCs amenisia this works really well because imagine the revelation on the part of the characters when they figure it out, we the players would know, but take Cass with you to the Fade and discover that big oh **** moment. 

 

Though sadly this is a thing that would really only work in full for one play through because a new player would not know that the Wardens are baddies just yet so they would be helping quite ignorantly. 

[Guitar-Hero]

Wasn't a failure. Some people liked it, some didn't and most people thought it was alright.

 

Biggest problem i had and alot of the people i talked to about it was boredom and gradual loss of interest. 

[vbibbi]

I like it.  And given the PCs amenisia this works really well because imagine the revelation on the part of the characters when they figure it out, we the players would know, but take Cass with you to the Fade and discover that big oh **** moment. 

 

Though sadly this is a thing that would really only work in full for one play through because a new player would not know that the Wardens are baddies just yet so they would be helping quite ignorantly. 

True, the power of the revelation is weakened after the first playthrough. And I can see it being frustrating for players to be forced to help the Wardens when they know the consequences.

[Flurdt Vash]

I honestly loved every damn second of the game, and Im still playing it   I have several characters and more hours logged then is probably healthy lol   This is the first time we were able to explore Thedas in such an open manner, and the companions were so real. They all felt like individuals to me instead of just, "John is a Warrior, use him to hit people". Origins will always hold a special place in my heart, but Inquisition truly has become my favorite of the series so far. 

[Addictress]

The Orlesian map was infintisimally small.

You spent a huge amount of time in the war room clicking through dialogue prompts of things happening....instead of actually experiencing them.

The things you do experience are full of extremely rote fetch & kill quests and collection quests.

The ending boss is laughably simple and the rest of your war team is nowhere to be found and you don't see them get involved in the action in any way.

[fizzypop]

DAI isn't a failure as much as it was mostly mediocre.

[Morroian]

And yet Origins was the most generic "save the world from ancient evil" plot there ever was. As least Cory was a character (not a great one), and not just a big evil dragon. And I much prefer the having the Mark as an excuse for why people turn to you, rather than in Origins, where everyone just immediately turns to you for absolutely no reason and acts like you're the most special person in the world who can solve all of their problems and lead all the armies from every race in the country.

 

DAO had Loghain as the more personal antagonist for much of the game and he was far more interesting than Cory. As for why people flock to you in Origins it was because of the mystique of the Grey Wardens and what you actually achieved for each faction. The game gave us plenty of reasons why.

[Abyss108]

DAO had Loghain as the more personal antagonist for much of the game and he was far more interesting than Cory. As for why people flock to you in Origins it was because of the mystique of the Grey Wardens and what you actually achieved for each faction. The game gave us plenty of reasons why.

 

How was Loghain a personal antagonist when you only talk to him once? I found him as utterly generic as Cory.

 

If you count the "mystique of the gray wardens" as a valid reason, why not the mark? You did nothing to earn either of them, they are both just handed to you. And you achieve plenty in Inquisition to get people to join you - you support factions, you talk with political leaders, you help refugees, you take fortresses, etc.

[vbibbi]

If the number of rifts were reduced by 75% I think that would go a long way for me in terms of replayability. They become such a chore after the first playthrough, I don't find them fun and they become obstacles to avoid when crossing the maps. They are the #1 element that feels like an MMO. And it highlights how segregated actual gameplay is from the narrative concept. The environment is unaffected by the rifts and demons pouring from them. And apparently they only occur in remote wilderness areas, not in urban areas where we would have heard about mass evacuations or quarantines. The cult surrounding one of the rifts is apparently able to survive without fear of the demons coming out at any point.

[Morroian]

How was Loghain a personal antagonist when you only talk to him once? I found him as utterly generic as Cory.

 

If you count the "mystique of the gray wardens" as a valid reason, why not the mark? You did nothing to earn either of them, they are both just handed to you. And you achieve plenty in Inquisition to get people to join you - you support factions, you talk with political leaders, you help refugees, you take fortresses, etc.

 

OK Loghain is more complex and he makes it personal by hounding you.

 

On the second point I didn't say anything about the mark. Both DAI and DAO gave good reason for people to follow you. Its not either/or.

[vbibbi]

How was Loghain a personal antagonist when you only talk to him once? I found him as utterly generic as Cory.

 

If you count the "mystique of the gray wardens" as a valid reason, why not the mark? You did nothing to earn either of them, they are both just handed to you. And you achieve plenty in Inquisition to get people to join you - you support factions, you talk with political leaders, you help refugees, you take fortresses, etc.

Well, I consider the Origin as the reason why Duncan recruits us. It proves our mettle and suitability for the Wardens. As it plays out, it truly is blind luck that we stumble into the scene with the Divine and Cory. And then we still have to go in the Korcari Wilds and fight off darkspawn.

 

As silly as the cutaway scenes with Loghain and Howe were, they did put a face to our antagonist and what he was up to while we were in the field. And sending Zevran after us, the soldiers in the tavern tricking Warden supporters, the bounty hunters in the Frostback pass and guards at the gate, hiring Jowan to poison Eamon, allying with Uldred, all the influence of Loghain against us.

[Elhanan]

If the number of rifts were reduced by 75% I think that would go a long way for me in terms of replayability. They become such a chore after the first playthrough, I don't find them fun and they become obstacles to avoid when crossing the maps. They are the #1 element that feels like an MMO. And it highlights how segregated actual gameplay is from the narrative concept. The environment is unaffected by the rifts and demons pouring from them. And apparently they only occur in remote wilderness areas, not in urban areas where we would have heard about mass evacuations or quarantines. The cult surrounding one of the rifts is apparently able to survive without fear of the demons coming out at any point.

Personally like closing rifts, and the experience and rewards are so much better than the Bottles of Thedas; my own personal thorn. But I keep seeing this bit about them not affecting the environs, and that is not always the case.

The Hinterlands, Exalted Plains, Crestwood, The Lion, and the Emerald Graves seem to all include locations majorly affected by rifts. The Hinterlands even has a major storyline moment on the way to Redcliffe, as well as showing other towers and fortifications that have been decimated. Crestwood also has major storyline moments indicating the danger, and all of the Dales settings have the local populace being terrorized and affected by these rifts and the demons wandering from them. While not every rift has such illustrations, they are included in the game.

These are also the locations with more of a non-nomadic population, while the Storm Coast, Fallow Mire, Western Approach, Hissing Wastes, and the Forbidden Oasis are less centralized generally. These contain the rifts that may seem less hazardous as there are fewer humanoids as a rule. Still, even these rifts, and much like the Dragons they house are seemingly a danger like the others.

[Nefla]

And yet Origins was the most generic "save the world from ancient evil" plot there ever was. As least Cory was a character (not a great one), and not just a big evil dragon. And I much prefer the having the Mark as an excuse for why people turn to you, rather than in Origins, where everyone just immediately turns to you for absolutely no reason and acts like you're the most special person in the world who can solve all of their problems and lead all the armies from every race in the country.

 

I agree the plot should have been about the Mage/Templar war. They set that expectation up in the previous games, and it sucks it went no where. 

 

The game never expected you to care about the Divine. I don't know where you ever got that idea from. You meet her in the fade later and she helps you get your memories back, but you are not asked to care about her. And Cassandra follows you because she thinks her God sent you. You can talk to her about this, and it's an interesting conflict for characters that are not Andrastian.

 

I actually have no idea what you are talking about when you say "cameos". Every character you meet is important to the plot and stays around for the rest of the game.

 

The first quest isn't "climb a hill and fight monsters", it's "climb and hill and fight monsters in order to stop your own hand from killing you, and convince a very important character that you didn't blow up the conclave so she doesn't execute you". It's a plot that has very important personal stakes for both your characters, and what you do there sets up your character as the Herald, aka affects the rest of the game.

Origins sure was a generic "defeat the ancient evil hoard" (though I'm not sure why you brought it up) BUT Origins had a lot going on with the blight as a backdrop rather than the sole focus like in DA:I (and I'd argue that Loghain was a lot more of a character and a lot more interesting than Corypheus). In Origins we were introduced to this whole new world, got to learn about different people and cultures and places not by reading a note on the ground but by going to those places and interacting with the people there, participating in their problems. I loved it . Through the origin stories we got to see where our character came from and experience a little slice of their everyday life before they became a warden rather than being told "you were part of a Tal Vashoth mercenary band." Warden treaties or special magical mark, both are boring. I don't want to be a special snowflake chosen one, I want to fight for and earn everything I get.

 

Why wouldn't the game expect you to care about the Divine? It beats you over the head with her death the first third of the game, two of your inner circle were her advisors, your organization was founded by her, and she died to save you. You should care about her. The game should have developed her if they were going to use her as a major plot point.

 

Cameo was the wrong word. Blatant fanservice inserts would be better. IMO the game would have been much better off with all new characters that the devs had taken the time to flesh out and develop. Using so many returning characters from other things seemed like a blatant excuse to not give them time and attention but rather rely on previous development. For example, people that read the books might have accepted Celine as this brilliant strategist and master manipulator as characters in the game tell us she is (though without giving examples) but she never actually does anything clever. She doesn't even notice the obvious mobs of murderous venatori in her own palace.

 

There's exactly zero tension about Cassandra possibly executing you in the intro. For one the game wouldn't be an hour long, and for another, we already knew Cassandra becomes a companion before the game even came out. If this had happened late in the game it would be a different story. She thinks you lied and betrayed her, she attacks you and you have to kill her or she leaves your party. By that point you'd already know her well and her fate would be up in the air. You also don't do anything to convince Cassandra that you're trustworthy. She hears a convenient magical recording of "somebody help me!" and "what's going on here?" which was enough for her to come to the conclusion that the Divine called out to the inquisitor specifically and that they must be innocent. The hand potentially killing you likewise had zero tension for the same reasons. We all knew that wasn't going to happen. (compare to Trespasser where it was uncertain, kept escalating out of control, and there was a real possibility of death). So yeah it was "climb a hill and fight some generic monsters." Snooze. The only interesting thing to come out of that intro was the possibility that Andraste saved you. Not the mark, not the breach, not the unknown characters that died offscreen before the game started, not the generic demons or the long list of repeat characters.

[vbibbi]

 

There's exactly zero tension about Cassandra possibly executing you in the intro. For one the game wouldn't be an hour long, and for another, we already knew Cassandra becomes a companion before the game even came out. If this had happened late in the game it would be a different story. She thinks you lied and betrayed her, she attacks you and you have to kill her or she leaves your party. By that point you'd already know her well and her fate would be up in the air. You also don't do anything to convince Cassandra that you're trustworthy. She hears a convenient magical recording of "somebody help me!" and "what's going on here?" which was enough for her to come to the conclusion that the Divine called out to the inquisitor specifically and that they must be innocent. The hand potentially killing you likewise had zero tension for the same reasons. We all knew that wasn't going to happen. (compare to Trespasser where it was uncertain, kept escalating out of control, and there was a real possibility of death). So yeah it was "climb a hill and fight some generic monsters." Snooze. The only interesting thing to come out of that intro was the possibility that Andraste saved you. Not the mark, not the breach, not the unknown characters that died offscreen before the game started, not the generic demons or the long list of repeat characters.

Yeah that plot died pretty quickly. And the reasoning why she immediately believed your innocence is pretty flimsy. Solas mentions that the Fade is a reflection of everyone's viewpoint, so it's not an accurate historical record. He couldn't say what happened at Ostagar because he saw the differing views of the participants.

 

I wish there was more exploration of the Anchor and what it means. At no point in the base game is there an investigation into its nature or how to use its powers. JOH gives a new power, so why couldn't we ask Your Trainer or someone else about it? And did Ameridan have similar powers, if the memories he provided were activated by using the Anchor? I still have no idea what it really is, besides a way of opening and closing rifts. If Solas took it away, why can't he immediately use it to bring down the veil like his original plan?

 

[IanPolaris]

Wasn't a failure. Some people liked it, some didn't and most people thought it was alright.

 

Biggest problem i had and alot of the people i talked to about it was boredom and gradual loss of interest. 

Indeed.  I don't think even the so-called DAI critics on this thread are calling it a 'failure' (and indeed I said just the opposite on my initial post in this thread).  However, the boredom does go right back to my initial criticism that DAI is a mile wide (making a great first impression) but an inch deep (no staying power).

[Al Foley]

Yeah that plot died pretty quickly. And the reasoning why she immediately believed your innocence is pretty flimsy. Solas mentions that the Fade is a reflection of everyone's viewpoint, so it's not an accurate historical record. He couldn't say what happened at Ostagar because he saw the differing views of the participants.

 

I wish there was more exploration of the Anchor and what it means. At no point in the base game is there an investigation into its nature or how to use its powers. JOH gives a new power, so why couldn't we ask Your Trainer or someone else about it? And did Ameridan have similar powers, if the memories he provided were activated by using the Anchor? I still have no idea what it really is, besides a way of opening and closing rifts. If Solas took it away, why can't he immediately use it to bring down the veil like his original plan?

Maybe the anchor has some unique mind controlling properties.  

 

Though in all seriousness the vision they saw in the Fade really was not a reflection of any of the participants.  Cassandra was suspicious about the Survivor at the time and unsure whether they were responsible or not.  Varric seemed relatively neutral on the whole concept, and wasn't even there, so it couldn't have been him.  The Inquisitor did not remember at the time either and had some personal doubts of his innocence.  This leaves Solas, who has the knowledge to manipulate such visions, Divine Justinia, or Corypheus himself as the only beings who the fade could have drawn their individual preceptions from.  Two of which were actual eye witnesses deeply involved in what happened.  As for the rest, Cassandra probably bowed to popular pressure and you did just seal off the first rift. 

[IanPolaris]

Maybe the anchor has some unique mind controlling properties.

 

Though in all seriousness the vision they saw in the Fade really was not a reflection of any of the participants.  Cassandra was suspicious about the Survivor at the time and unsure whether they were responsible or not.  Varric seemed relatively neutral on the whole concept, and wasn't even there, so it couldn't have been him.  The Inquisitor did not remember at the time either and had some personal doubts of his innocence.  This leaves Solas, who has the knowledge to manipulate such visions, Divine Justinia, or Corypheus himself as the only beings who the fade could have drawn their individual preceptions from.  Two of which were actual eye witnesses deeply involved in what happened.  As for the rest, Cassandra probably bowed to popular pressure and you did just seal off the first rift. 

 

Also bear in mind that given the numbers and relative power of the people directly at the site of the original breech, the memories we hear are almost certainly from them, i.e. from Corypheaus.  Certainly that's what Solas think and while you might not think he's the most reliable of character witnessesses, Seekers and Templars generally have at least passing knowledge of the fade (if only to do their jobs) and it made sense to both Cullen and Cassandra.  I also note that spirit information and testimony generally is acceptable in Thedas although it isn't considered the most reliable....but if there's physical evidence that backs it, I can see why Cassandra would think that the PC did not kill the Divine afterwords.

 

All that said, the game makes it sound like what was seen is totally exculpatory and it's really not.  The fade isn't a flight-data recorder.

[Addictress]

The first time I started out in Origins, I thought the darkspawn looked cartoonish and the intro seemed like some random dime-a-dozen "good vs evil" situation *yawn* BUT

 

But then I noticed the depth of the game. When you walked into the first Grey Warden camp in Ostagar, and you click on Wynn, just standing there, and learn about the fade. That very first map - when you hadn't even began the game - already had so many little side quests, where you learned about mabari war hounds, mages, tranquil... and all of them added rich codex entries. And that first grey warden camp where you take the chalice was just a doorway to the rest of the game.  Not only that but the background theme in just that camp alone was incredible. Remember?

 

 

O______O  That song. Among the ruins. Brought tears to my eyes.  

 

Then when you're walking around Denerim, some random nameless house would turn out to be an hour-long dungeon that beats your team to smithereens. It was so hardcore.

 

Most importantly, it had the charm of those intimate cut-scene conversations with team members in the middle of quests, while walking. This made the game that much more interesting because you would always be able to test out how it would be to interact with a crew members during a journey - it made the quest itself more...meta? More interactive, and complex. 

 

It's hard to describe. It had this character.... idk

[Abyss108]

Well, I consider the Origin as the reason why Duncan recruits us. It proves our mettle and suitability for the Wardens. As it plays out, it truly is blind luck that we stumble into the scene with the Divine and Cory. And then we still have to go in the Korcari Wilds and fight off darkspawn.

 

As silly as the cutaway scenes with Loghain and Howe were, they did put a face to our antagonist and what he was up to while we were in the field. And sending Zevran after us, the soldiers in the tavern tricking Warden supporters, the bounty hunters in the Frostback pass and guards at the gate, hiring Jowan to poison Eamon, allying with Uldred, all the influence of Loghain against us.

 

Killing a few nobles/soldiers/treking through a small dungeon/whatever other minor task is in the origins I didn't play is not a reason to be able to lead an army. Neither is killing a few darkspawn. It's blind luck that Duncan saves you at the end of your origin. Both protagonists only become the protagonist due to luck, in fact the other origins still happen if you don't pick them, the character just died at the end because Duncan wasn't there. So I consider there to be equal part luck.

 

Cory also takes action in the game. He attacks Haven, he attacks Celene, he turns the wardens against you. I hated the cutaway scenes from origins, so I'm glad those were removed. I don't want the game giving me knowledge my character doesn't have.

 

 

Origins sure was a generic "defeat the ancient evil hoard" (though I'm not sure why you brought it up) BUT Origins had a lot going on with the blight as a backdrop rather than the sole focus like in DA:I (and I'd argue that Loghain was a lot more of a character and a lot more interesting than Corypheus). In Origins we were introduced to this whole new world, got to learn about different people and cultures and places not by reading a note on the ground but by going to those places and interacting with the people there, participating in their problems. I loved it . Through the origin stories we got to see where our character came from and experience a little slice of their everyday life before they became a warden rather than being told "you were part of a Tal Vashoth mercenary band." Warden treaties or special magical mark, both are boring. I don't want to be a special snowflake chosen one, I want to fight for and earn everything I get.

 

Why wouldn't the game expect you to care about the Divine? It beats you over the head with her death the first third of the game, two of your inner circle were her advisors, your organization was founded by her, and she died to save you. You should care about her. The game should have developed her if they were going to use her as a major plot point.

 

Cameo was the wrong word. Blatant fanservice inserts would be better. IMO the game would have been much better off with all new characters that the devs had taken the time to flesh out and develop. Using so many returning characters from other things seemed like a blatant excuse to not give them time and attention but rather rely on previous development. For example, people that read the books might have accepted Celine as this brilliant strategist and master manipulator as characters in the game tell us she is (though without giving examples) but she never actually does anything clever. She doesn't even notice the obvious mobs of murderous venatori in her own palace.

 

There's exactly zero tension about Cassandra possibly executing you in the intro. For one the game wouldn't be an hour long, and for another, we already knew Cassandra becomes a companion before the game even came out. If this had happened late in the game it would be a different story. She thinks you lied and betrayed her, she attacks you and you have to kill her or she leaves your party. By that point you'd already know her well and her fate would be up in the air. You also don't do anything to convince Cassandra that you're trustworthy. She hears a convenient magical recording of "somebody help me!" and "what's going on here?" which was enough for her to come to the conclusion that the Divine called out to the inquisitor specifically and that they must be innocent. The hand potentially killing you likewise had zero tension for the same reasons. We all knew that wasn't going to happen. (compare to Trespasser where it was uncertain, kept escalating out of control, and there was a real possibility of death). So yeah it was "climb a hill and fight some generic monsters." Snooze. The only interesting thing to come out of that intro was the possibility that Andraste saved you. Not the mark, not the breach, not the unknown characters that died offscreen before the game started, not the generic demons or the long list of repeat characters.

 

I brought it up because people seemed to be saying the plot of origins handled everything much better compared to Inquisition, so I assumed that's what things were being compared to - sorry if that wasn't the case!

 

I disagree about Origins having less reading though. I've been replaying and there are a lot of quests that are just writing. The chanters board/mercenary groups/mages etc are all just pure text. And so far in my game they have all been "go here, kill monster", or "collect items", or "go here, talk to generic npc". Maybe they get better as the game goes on? - I honestly forgot these things existed before I restarted... There are a lot of other quests as well that are just reading notes.

 

And the game does not want you to care about the Divine. The fact that other characters who did know who cared, does not mean that you, who never did is supposed to. Her death is a plot point, because of how it affects Thedas, not because her death is supposed to make you feel very sad. 

 

I'd agree it would be better if they didn't reuse characters, though that might just be because they used characters I never really cared about (Leiliana, Cullen). 

 

I don't think Celene is supposed to be seen as brilliant though. If you keep her in power, the game tells you how precarious her situation is after the game. She only stays in power because you put her there, and both the game, and your character (in Trespasser) outright state this. She may have used to be good at the Game, but not anymore. 

 

So you feel any character/plot that threatens you in the first 100 hours of a game is pointless, because the game won't kill your character at that point? I guess thats technically true, but a game requires a certain suspension of disbelief. I found the interaction a lot more interesting than I would have talking to a few generic mage/templar NPCs at the start of the game.

 

Eh, evidently the game didn't work for you. It worked for me and a lot of other people though. Can't please everyone, and I don't think we are going to agree on this.

[Nefla]

Eh, evidently the game didn't work for you. It worked for me and a lot of other people though. Can't please everyone, and I don't think we are going to agree on this.

Yeah, I think at this point all we're doing is saying the same things over and over and annoying each other Even if one side convinced the other, it would change nothing. It's not like the devs are going to base anything about the next game on this thread.

[vbibbi]

Killing a few nobles/soldiers/treking through a small dungeon/whatever other minor task is in the origins I didn't play is not a reason to be able to lead an army. Neither is killing a few darkspawn. It's blind luck that Duncan saves you at the end of your origin. Both protagonists only become the protagonist due to luck, in fact the other origins still happen if you don't pick them, the character just died at the end because Duncan wasn't there. So I consider there to be equal part luck.

 

Cory also takes action in the game. He attacks Haven, he attacks Celene, he turns the wardens against you. I hated the cutaway scenes from origins, so I'm glad those were removed. I don't want the game giving me knowledge my character doesn't have.

 

I don't think Celene is supposed to be seen as brilliant though. If you keep her in power, the game tells you how precarious her situation is after the game. She only stays in power because you put her there, and both the game, and your character (in Trespasser) outright state this. She may have used to be good at the Game, but not anymore. 

 

Well no, combat skill is not a good reason to lead an army, but that's not what happens in Origins. We only lead our small band of misfits for much of the game, and use historically-based treaty documents in order to conscript the army. It's not like we're saying "Hey I know you might not be invested in stopping the darkspawn if you could just feel but will you join me anyway lol?" We are telling the groups "I have these ancient treaties which your ancestors agreed to abide by because they understood the danger posed by the Blight and I would not be using them if the need weren't dire." We're not a special snowflake asking for people tp believe our word alone. Even at the final battle, we're not leading the army, Eamon and Alistair/Anora are leading the troops. We have access to some of our conscripted troops to help us, but I see that more as leading a strike force to target strategic areas rather than directing the entire army.

 

Whereas in DAI, while we don't become the Inquisitor until after Haven and prove ourselves (at that point it's deserved), it seemed like Cassandra and the advisors should have taken the leadership role. I know it's mostly gameplay trumping narrative, but it would make more sense to me if we were given assignments we had to accomplish before being made Inky, rather than having the ability to do whatever we want. There is no shift in tone or attitude from the advisors or Cassandra in Haven than there is in Skyhold, IMO. They treat us with deference and allow us to make all of the decisions, even when we're ostensibly just an agent of the Inquisition.

 

As for your point about Cory, you're right and I didn't go into enough detail there. Cory is the chessmaster moving all of the pieces, but we only SEE him a very few times. As I said, the cutscenes with Loghain were silly and a bit jarring to our point of view, but at least they kept his presence active in the game. And we had the chance to talk with him in Ostagar, and saw his role there. The only dialogue we have with Cory is at Haven, and it's pretty cheesy and doesn't explain much. We don't talk to him in Mythal's temple, we again spew cliches at the final fight, and that's his entire active presence in the game.

 

Honestly, to better fit the idea of an Inquisition, I feel like it would have been better if Cory hadn't shown his true form for much of the game. Realistically, I don't think most people, even the most patriotic Tevinter citizen, would think following an enormous darkspawn is a good idea. Really? REALLY? If anything, he represents the downfall of ancient Tevinter and is a major reason for their diminished status today. And this is the leader you're going to let repeat his original mistake of entering the Black City?

 

It would make more sense if he was hiding in a Warden body, and only became his true form at the Temple when he is killed by the defenses. We would have to find out his true identity like an actual inquisition, and start spreading dissent through his ranks by revealing how he's actually an ugly darkspawn who wants to potentially unleash more Bad Things from the Fade.

 

 

In game Celene isn't shown as politically brilliant, no. But mentions of her in DAO and then her entire arc in The Masked Empire indicates that she is a political mastermind. She was not next in line for the throne, Gaspard was next, but she outmaneuvered him to take the throne. And we learn about a lot of horrible actions she took to gain and keep power. But in the game, she falls victim to Bond villain Florianne if we don't step in.

[vbibbi]

Yeah, I think at this point all we're doing is saying the same things over and over and annoying each other Even if one side convinced the other, it would change nothing. It's not like the devs are going to base anything about the next game on this thread.

I have to say, though, I've enjoyed the discussions on this thread, title notwithstanding. Everyone has been respectful and rational about the game. So a thank you to everyone for keeping the discussion going without it devolving into a flame war!   And some people have made some points which have made me reevaluate some of my opinions and thoughts about aspects of the game.

[Nashimura]

How was Loghain a personal antagonist when you only talk to him once? I found him as utterly generic as Cory.

 

 

 

Oh wow... the complexities of Loghain's character really were lost on you huh? I spoke to him more than once too... once at ostagar, once at the lands meet then loads of times when he was a companion. 

 

But this simplistic attitude of yours is exactly why bioware are trotting out antagonists like Corypheus and Kei Lang instead of Saren,Master Li and Loghain... because people truly do not care about good villains with complex motivations anymore.

[Elhanan]

Well no, combat skill is not a good reason to lead an army, but that's not what happens in Origins. We only lead our small band of misfits for much of the game, and use historically-based treaty documents in order to conscript the army. It's not like we're saying "Hey I know you might not be invested in stopping the darkspawn if you could just feel but will you join me anyway lol?" We are telling the groups "I have these ancient treaties which your ancestors agreed to abide by because they understood the danger posed by the Blight and I would not be using them if the need weren't dire." We're not a special snowflake asking for people tp believe our word alone. Even at the final battle, we're not leading the army, Eamon and Alistair/Anora are leading the troops. We have access to some of our conscripted troops to help us, but I see that more as leading a strike force to target strategic areas rather than directing the entire army.
 
Whereas in DAI, while we don't become the Inquisitor until after Haven and prove ourselves (at that point it's deserved), it seemed like Cassandra and the advisors should have taken the leadership role. I know it's mostly gameplay trumping narrative, but it would make more sense to me if we were given assignments we had to accomplish before being made Inky, rather than having the ability to do whatever we want. There is no shift in tone or attitude from the advisors or Cassandra in Haven than there is in Skyhold, IMO. They treat us with deference and allow us to make all of the decisions, even when we're ostensibly just an agent of the Inquisition.
 
As for your point about Cory, you're right and I didn't go into enough detail there. Cory is the chessmaster moving all of the pieces, but we only SEE him a very few times. As I said, the cutscenes with Loghain were silly and a bit jarring to our point of view, but at least they kept his presence active in the game. And we had the chance to talk with him in Ostagar, and saw his role there. The only dialogue we have with Cory is at Haven, and it's pretty cheesy and doesn't explain much. We don't talk to him in Mythal's temple, we again spew cliches at the final fight, and that's his entire active presence in the game.
 
Honestly, to better fit the idea of an Inquisition, I feel like it would have been better if Cory hadn't shown his true form for much of the game. Realistically, I don't think most people, even the most patriotic Tevinter citizen, would think following an enormous darkspawn is a good idea. Really? REALLY? If anything, he represents the downfall of ancient Tevinter and is a major reason for their diminished status today. And this is the leader you're going to let repeat his original mistake of entering the Black City?
 
It would make more sense if he was hiding in a Warden body, and only became his true form at the Temple when he is killed by the defenses. We would have to find out his true identity like an actual inquisition, and start spreading dissent through his ranks by revealing how he's actually an ugly darkspawn who wants to potentially unleash more Bad Things from the Fade.
 
 
In game Celene isn't shown as politically brilliant, no. But mentions of her in DAO and then her entire arc in The Masked Empire indicates that she is a political mastermind. She was not next in line for the throne, Gaspard was next, but she outmaneuvered him to take the throne. And we learn about a lot of horrible actions she took to gain and keep power. But in the game, she falls victim to Bond villain Florianne if we don't step in.

I contend that everything that is done while stationed in Haven is a test, and that by saving many of the Inquisition is what allowed the bump in status. And remember, there are penalties in Approval if making decisions that are not in line with another's POV.

Cory is only directly met a few times, but is discussed a great deal by others. Varric, Solas, Hawke, Mother Giselle etc offer possible insights to his behavior and motives. But almost the entire map offers evidence of his actions, as well as a trip to the future to glimpse at what may happen if not stopped.

And Cory was hiding in the body of a Warden (ie; DA2 Legacy DLC); may be a main factor as to how the Warden's were lured to their fates. This was referenced briefly in the game.

[Abyss108]

Oh wow... the complexities of Loghain's character really were lost on you huh? I spoke to him more than once too... once at ostagar, once at the lands meet then loads of times when he was a companion. 

 

But this simplistic attitude of yours is exactly why bioware are trotting out antagonists like Corypheus and Kei Lang instead of Saren,Master Li and Loghain... because people truly do not care about good villains with complex motivations anymore.

 

Except you only get those "loads of times" if you recruit him, and you don't have any reason to recruit him because you haven't seen those conversations. Before then you talk to him twice, and I think one of those is optional. 

 

All you get before then is "boo hoo I hate Orlesians, gonna stab everyone instead of working with them". Now, I've read the books, and I know he is more complex - but none of that is shown in the game.