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[Addictress]

Except you only get those "loads of times" if you recruit him, and you don't have any reason to recruit him because you haven't seen those conversations. Before then you talk to him twice, and I think one of those is optional. 

 

All you get before then is "boo hoo I hate Orlesians, gonna stab everyone instead of working with them". Now, I've read the books, and I know he is more complex - but none of that is shown in the game. 

Loghains was a vastly more interesting character from the very start.  He's the father of the queen. Who betrayed the queen by allowing her king to die. 

 

My theater teacher always said that character is action. That's how you build character in a play, in a movie, in a book or in game - not by standing there talking about it. In Origins, we meet Cailan and we see the conversation between King Cailan and Loghain revealing he is the father of Cailan's wife (which brings us into this traditional, medieval-type setting), and then we watch, in the heat of battle, as Loghain stops his troops from entering the battlefield, even though they're standing right next to it, and we see Loghain turn his back.

 

It was a very dramatic demonstration of his character which didn't require a lot of dialogue, especially since we already had this impression of Cailan by talking to him first - he's a friendly, handsome, good guy, etc. 

 

That action established Loghain's gravity for the rest of the game.

[Abyss108]

Loghains was a vastly more interesting character from the very start.  He's the father of the queen. Who betrayed the queen by allowing her king to die. 

 

My theater teacher always said that character is action. That's how you build character in a play, in a movie, in a book or in game - not by standing there talking about it. In Origins, we meet Loghain, we see the conversation between King Cailan and Loghain and we see how he is the father of Cailan's wife (which brings us into this traditional, medieval-type setting), and then we watch as Loghain stop his troops from entering the battlefield, and turn his back.

 

It was a very dramatic demonstration of his character which didn't require a lot of dialogue, especially since we already had this impression of Cailan by talking to him first - he's a friendly, handsome, good guy, etc. 

 

That's what established Loghain's gravity for the rest of the game.

 

Killing a likeable person didn't make Loghain interesting. Most villains kills likeable people and betray others. Loghain was utterly generic in the game. If the game did a better job of showing his motivations for that betrayal he could have been interesting, but the game took no time to establish that.

[Addictress]

Killing a likeable person didn't make Loghain interesting. Most villains kills likeable people and betray others. Loghain was utterly generic in the game. If the game did a better job of showing his motivations for that betrayal he could have been interesting, but the game took no time to establish that.

It makes him a solid villain, that's all I'm saying. He's not a black-and-white monster standing around curling his moustache. In addition we'd check back on him as he'd make grand speeches to the people of Denerim 1. Trying to sell his distance from Cailan's fate (with the interjection by Eamon), 2. Trying to sway public opinion in his favor, while his daughter mourns her husband's death and obviously mistrusts her dad.

We established a one-on-one relationship with Cailan. Shook his hand. That's cinematically important. Cailan talked directly to the warden. And he's a KING so the convo wasn't long but you felt honored to have it in the first place.


That battle scene, then, in which you dont just hear about him abandoning battle, but cinematically watch him halt his troops and turn away, sold him as a strong villain.

Corypheus is not a strong villain. He talks about his evil schemes but we don't see anything about his motives in the past - I mean maybe if they had flsh backs or even began the game in ancient Tevinter where we play Corypheus as a magister, that would be facking cool

[Addictress]

Also, another point to consider is that the scenes with Loghain are kind of metanarratively informed by the player-s prior exposure to historical dramas, old films and stuff which already well-established expectations of how these kinds of royal family dramas play out. Tevinter magisters on the other hand do not have that much precedent in other culture except broadly speaking as an evil monster. So again I think they should have played around with more interactive back story or, as someone else mentioned in the thread, shrouded him in extreme mystery and then used the mysticism of the dark city to sell a powerful surprise revelation of his identity near the very end of the game, making the mystery of the villain's identity a major focal point.

[Addictress]

Exposition and back story doesn't have to be lengthy and wordy, even. Theatrical timing and delivery and just the setup of the relationships can just take one or two brief scenes - like we saw with Loghain and Cailan - to make it work.

Not just popping up somewhere, waving hands around and throwing around magical crap with an ugly face ( which actually I always thought Corypheus was beautiful in an awkward way but that's besides the point...I liked his look in the past game more tho, with the awesome masks. I have a thing for masks. Phantom of the Opera fetish)

[Abyss108]

It makes him a solid villain, that's all I'm saying. He's not a black-and-white monster standing around curling his moustache. In addition we'd check back on him as he'd make grand speeches to the people of Denerim 1. Trying to sell his distance from Cailan's fate (with the interjection by Eamon), 2. Trying to sway public opinion in his favor, while his daughter mourns her husband's death and obviously mistrusts her dad.

We established a one-on-one relationship with Cailan. Shook his hand. That's cinematically important. Cailan talked directly to the warden. And he's a KING so the convo wasn't long but you felt honored to have it in the first place.


That battle scene, then, in which you dont just hear about him abandoning battle, but cinematically watch him halt his troops and turn away, sold him as a strong villain.

Corypheus is not a strong villain. He talks about his evil schemes but we don't see anything about his motives in the past - I mean maybe if they had flsh backs or even began the game in ancient Tevinter where we play Corypheus as a magister, that would be facking cool

 

I disagree with most of this. He was black and white as portrayed by the game. We never saw him do anything good. He killed a good person, then lied about it. That's not complex.

 

I never felt honoured to shake the hand of a boy king who had done nothing for me, and acted like the war was a game. Cailan was a moron, and was presented as such.

 

I do agree that Cory isn't a strong villain either. We never saw anything of his motivations, just the same as Loghain.

[Al Foley]

*sigh* To me Loghain was an uninteresting melodramatic blank slate who was trying too hard to be the Illusive Man.  I did not connect to the villain at all.  Only thing that really made it the least bit satisfying in any way was watching Ali take his revenge ust like I was able to do against Arl Rendon Howe.  I preffered greatly Corypheus.  

[Al Foley]

I disagree with most of this. He was black and white as portrayed by the game. We never saw him do anything good. He killed a good person, then lied about it. That's not complex.

 

I never felt honoured to shake the hand of a boy king who had done nothing for me, and acted like the war was a game. Cailan was a moron, and was presented as such.

 

I do agree that Cory isn't a strong villain either. We never saw anything of his motivations, just the same as Loghain.

Actually we did both in the Temple of Dumat plus just enough of his dialog we can easily infer what he was trying to do.  And why.  

[Addictress]

Idk, a lot of it is influenced by your mood first trying out a game. Like DA2 is my favorite, no one else likes it. Idk why.

I love masks so I don't criticize lightly. Witcher 3 had a lovely masquerade

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

Origins sure was a generic "defeat the ancient evil hoard" (though I'm not sure why you brought it up) BUT Origins had a lot going on with the blight as a backdrop rather than the sole focus like in DA:I (and I'd argue that Loghain was a lot more of a character and a lot more interesting than Corypheus). In Origins we were introduced to this whole new world, got to learn about different people and cultures and places not by reading a note on the ground but by going to those places and interacting with the people there, participating in their problems. I loved it . Through the origin stories we got to see where our character came from and experience a little slice of their everyday life before they became a warden rather than being told "you were part of a Tal Vashoth mercenary band." Warden treaties or special magical mark, both are boring. I don't want to be a special snowflake chosen one, I want to fight for and earn everything I get.

 

Why wouldn't the game expect you to care about the Divine? It beats you over the head with her death the first third of the game, two of your inner circle were her advisors, your organization was founded by her, and she died to save you. You should care about her. The game should have developed her if they were going to use her as a major plot point.

 

Cameo was the wrong word. Blatant fanservice inserts would be better. IMO the game would have been much better off with all new characters that the devs had taken the time to flesh out and develop. Using so many returning characters from other things seemed like a blatant excuse to not give them time and attention but rather rely on previous development. For example, people that read the books might have accepted Celine as this brilliant strategist and master manipulator as characters in the game tell us she is (though without giving examples) but she never actually does anything clever. She doesn't even notice the obvious mobs of murderous venatori in her own palace.

 

There's exactly zero tension about Cassandra possibly executing you in the intro. For one the game wouldn't be an hour long, and for another, we already knew Cassandra becomes a companion before the game even came out. If this had happened late in the game it would be a different story. She thinks you lied and betrayed her, she attacks you and you have to kill her or she leaves your party. By that point you'd already know her well and her fate would be up in the air. You also don't do anything to convince Cassandra that you're trustworthy. She hears a convenient magical recording of "somebody help me!" and "what's going on here?" which was enough for her to come to the conclusion that the Divine called out to the inquisitor specifically and that they must be innocent. The hand potentially killing you likewise had zero tension for the same reasons. We all knew that wasn't going to happen. (compare to Trespasser where it was uncertain, kept escalating out of control, and there was a real possibility of death). So yeah it was "climb a hill and fight some generic monsters." Snooze. The only interesting thing to come out of that intro was the possibility that Andraste saved you. Not the mark, not the breach, not the unknown characters that died offscreen before the game started, not the generic demons or the long list of repeat characters.

The daughter of Denali strikes again with words wise and true.

[vbibbi]

I really wanted to like Cory in DAI. He had some good qualities for being an interesting foil to Inky, but they were just never used properly. For all of his bluster, he really was spiritually cast adrift and trying to find some meaning in a world that had passed him by. I like his parting words shouting to Dumat for aid if he ever existed. And Morrigan's epilogue about how Corypheus awoke to a world gone awry. But it was too little too late for me. I wanted to see more of him throughout the game, get better characterization and less hammy dialogue.

 

I think what I really don't get is why he thought returning to the Black City would do anything good. Especially after he opens the Breach and see the destruction that ensues, why would he think ripping open the veil would be helpful? Why did he not just try to take over the Tevinter Imperium in the physical world? The last time he was in the Fade he became a darkspawn. What has changed since that first attempt?

[Al Foley]

I really wanted to like Cory in DAI. He had some good qualities for being an interesting foil to Inky, but they were just never used properly. For all of his bluster, he really was spiritually cast adrift and trying to find some meaning in a world that had passed him by. I like his parting words shouting to Dumat for aid if he ever existed. And Morrigan's epilogue about how Corypheus awoke to a world gone awry. But it was too little too late for me. I wanted to see more of him throughout the game, get better characterization and less hammy dialogue.

 

I think what I really don't get is why he thought returning to the Black City would do anything good. Especially after he opens the Breach and see the destruction that ensues, why would he think ripping open the veil would be helpful? Why did he not just try to take over the Tevinter Imperium in the physical world? The last time he was in the Fade he became a darkspawn. What has changed since that first attempt?

Why I find him so compelling.  But I do agree he was so improperly used in a lot of what they were doing with him.  His first apperance in Legacy was amazing and we learned more in ancient Thedas lore in 3 minutes then we did in almost 2 games...well kinda.  Especially on the Tevinter Imperium which is one of my favorite bits of the Dragon Age, and while we got some shadow of that in DA I...I really wanted to sit down and talk Tevinter with the man.  Him and Ultron actually have a lot in common and I put him as just slightly better executed. 

[Addictress]

Oh my god... They should have so started out in ancient Tevinter, with us playing the role of an unnamed magister.

Holy...

Do it over again Biower

[KaiserShep]

I really wanted to like Cory in DAI. He had some good qualities for being an interesting foil to Inky, but they were just never used properly. For all of his bluster, he really was spiritually cast adrift and trying to find some meaning in a world that had passed him by. I like his parting words shouting to Dumat for aid if he ever existed. And Morrigan's epilogue about how Corypheus awoke to a world gone awry. But it was too little too late for me. I wanted to see more of him throughout the game, get better characterization and less hammy dialogue.
 
I think what I really don't get is why he thought returning to the Black City would do anything good. Especially after he opens the Breach and see the destruction that ensues, why would he think ripping open the veil would be helpful? Why did he not just try to take over the Tevinter Imperium in the physical world? The last time he was in the Fade he became a darkspawn. What has changed since that first attempt?

I imagine that if I was a Tevinter cultist that used mass sacrifice to breach the fade and enter the golden city and got spit out a monster, and then some agent of a weirdo elf gave me an opportunity to try again with a super magic key, I'd be tempted to try again. What's the worst that could happen? XD

[KaiserShep]

Oh my god... They should have so started out in ancient Tevinter, with us playing the role of an unnamed magister.
Holy...
Do it over again Biower

I don't think I'd care for being stuck with one class.

[vbibbi]

Why I find him so compelling.  But I do agree he was so improperly used in a lot of what they were doing with him.  His first apperance in Legacy was amazing and we learned more in ancient Thedas lore in 3 minutes then we did in almost 2 games...well kinda.  Especially on the Tevinter Imperium which is one of my favorite bits of the Dragon Age, and while we got some shadow of that in DA I...I really wanted to sit down and talk Tevinter with the man.  Him and Ultron actually have a lot in common and I put him as just slightly better executed. 

 

He goes through a similar crisis of faith that Cassandra does, that Leliana goes through with Justinia and her role as Hand, that a devout Herald can roleplay after the Fade.

 

Heck, he's also a mirror of Solas. But most of that is confined to headcanon when it could easily have been expanded upon in game. The memory crystals in Dumat's temple are OK but don't contain a lot of details. I wanted more!

[Al Foley]

Oh my god... They should have so started out in ancient Tevinter, with us playing the role of an unnamed magister.

Holy...

Do it over again Biower

 

If the intention was that man would become Corypheus that would have been the single worse idea BioWare could have ever done ever.  

He goes through a similar crisis of faith that Cassandra does, that Leliana goes through with Justinia and her role as Hand, that a devout Herald can roleplay after the Fade.

 

Heck, he's also a mirror of Solas. But most of that is confined to headcanon when it could easily have been expanded upon in game. The memory crystals in Dumat's temple are OK but don't contain a lot of details. I wanted more!

Me too.  It seems to the be curse of DA bad guys.  They are...well...uh... let me think...unknowns.  We just do not get to talk or relate to them.  Aside from the Architect or Arishok which were DAs two best antagonists.  This is one of the reasons I really approve of what they did with Solas. 

[Addictress]

If the intention was that man would become Corypheus that would have been the single worse idea BioWare could have ever done ever.
Me too. It seems to the be curse of DA bad guys. They are...well...uh... let me think...unknowns. We just do not get to talk or relate to them. Aside from the Architect or Arishok which were DAs two best antagonists. This is one of the reasons I really approve of what they did with Solas.

I agree about the Arishok and the Architect, but what's so bad about exploring ancient Tevinter?

[Al Foley]

I agree about the Arishok and the Architect, but what's so bad about exploring ancient Tevinter?

If the intention was to have that character become Corypheus...it wouldn't have worked.....heh.  I just had a better idea.  Why not get to play as your Inquisitor who gets sucked back into Corypheus's memries ala Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets?  

[Addictress]

If the intention was to have that character become Corypheus...it wouldn't have worked.....heh. I just had a better idea. Why not get to play as your Inquisitor who gets sucked back into Corypheus's memries ala Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets?

I was thinking about the Witcher 3. Remember playing as young!Ciri

[Al Foley]

I was thinking about the Witcher 3. Remember playing as young!Ciri

when did we play as Young Ciri?  I remember playing with young ciri.  

[Addictress]

when did we play as Young Ciri? I remember playing with young ciri.

Oh yeah, with

Still! It could work, of course re-arranging everything else

[vbibbi]

If the intention was that man would become Corypheus that would have been the single worse idea BioWare could have ever done ever.  

Me too.  It seems to the be curse of DA bad guys.  They are...well...uh... let me think...unknowns.  We just do not get to talk or relate to them.  Aside from the Architect or Arishok which were DAs two best antagonists.  This is one of the reasons I really approve of what they did with Solas. 

We can learn a bit about him through Samson or Calpernia, but more about how they see him and less about his personal thoughts. If Erimond and Florianne weren't such cartoon villains maybe we could have learned more about him through them, as well.

 

Heck, Erimond could be the foil to Cory as the faded glory of Tevinter's magisters, while Florianne is foil of the modern world's most powerful empire. Again, if they were developed as actual characters and not cardboard cliches.

[Al Foley]

Oh yeah, with

Still! It could work, of course re-arranging everything else

I always thought that DA Is main story could have used a bit more padding.  I would have loved to go to Redcliffe, or Therinfall, had you recruited the other side to close the Breach...investigating what happened.  This could definitly belong.  Especially since the Inquisition did make some effort to find out about Cory's past via the war table.

[Hurbster]

Cut scenes great, poor ending in Trespasser (imo), way WAY too much padding in between the cool stuff.