482 réponses à ce sujet

[Serza]

The best ways of dealing with Solas

 

1) Talking him out his plans.

 

2) Working with him to minimize the destruction that will happen from removing the Veil.

 

3) Using Seeker abilities to block him from using his magic and imprison him in a place that is covered in runes & glyphs that do something similar.

 

4) Find some method to sap him off his powers and make him mortal.

 

Solas is as powerful, if not more powerful than the Evanuris. If the Evanuris cannot die so easily, I don't think he can as well.

 

I wished Bioware would have allowed our protagonist to point out the fact that we will have to deal with the Blight seeping out of Black City, the Titans waking up again, Great Dragons regaining sentience once more, everyone having magic and creatures such as the Nightmare in Adamant...to point all these out to Solas in the epilogue and explain to him that none of his plans will be good enough or foolproof enough to deal with all this.

 

I agree. This is why he has to be stopped. His plans literally CAN NOT negate all of... THAT.

 

Their sacrifice will be honored in the coming empire.

 

Thus spake the Avatar of Vengeance.

[AllThatJazz]

I'd love to see a scenario in DA4 where we discover (fairly early game) that Solas's plan - regardless of his personal motivations - is the lesser of two evils, much like his creation of the veil in the first place. Then we have to choose - try to stop Solas, temporarily saving the world but dooming it for certain in the long run, or be help him carry out his plan, horrible though it is, because even though loads will die in the short term, Thedas itself is saved. Imagine if Thedas is dying of Blight (which we know is a possibiilty, given how much Blight and Taint is around and it seems to getting worse as we progress through the series), and the only way to save it is to lift the veil - with all the chaos it will cause - because veilfire can burn away blight or something.

 

Of course, helping Solas would end up with our protagonist being seen as much of a villain as Fen'Harel is by the Elves, regardless of reason or intent - but then there are plenty on the Bioware forum who go on about how cool it would be to play as a villain for a change, and our favourite villains tend to be those whose motives we can understand or sympathise with - maybe DA4 is our chance to play just such a character. I'd find it interesting to explore ideas of 'having to live with committing great evil' with my goody two-shoes Inquisitors - or whoever we play as in DA4.

[wright1978]

Thus spake the Avatar of Vengeance.

 

Well my Dalish elf has the vallasin of Elgar'nan; Gof of vengeance.

[Korva]

Most of what happened that Solas caused during Inquisition was accidental.  He did not favor the Breach.  That particular method of merging the Fade and the real world was too traumatic for spirits, and Solas felt that the rifts needed closing.  So we know that is not his intention.

 

Your interpretation is more generous than mine, here. Didn't he say he intended to step through the Breach and finish his work from there? I didn't play it myself, but that's what I vaguely remember from a stream. Plus, what threw a spanner in his plans was that Corypheus didn't obligingly stay dead and somehow managed to regain the orb (I'm still completely baffled as to how he did that). So of course Solas had to favor closing the Breach and the rifts -- he had no way of surviving them or continuing his plans while Corpyheus still had his little toy.

 

Solas is afraid he's going to become a monster.  I personally think he hasn't--yet.  When he actually starts on his goals, when he starts to kill thousands if not millions of people (intentionally this time) that's when he'll be a monster.  At the moment he is at a crossroads.  The atrocities he has committed have been the results of accidents or unintentional collateral damage.  He's still responsible for them, though he did a lot to make up for it by helping the Inquisition.

 

That is where I struggle. His mindset and plans are monstrous enough already. And did he really "make up" for anything when it was in fact simply a necessity of survival for him? Looking back, pretty much everything he said and did in Inquisition (aside from his honest care and kindness for Cole) is tainted now by knowing what he thinks of us all and what he is planning. It's really painful.

Do I feel sorry for him?  No.  I told some friends via chat that I don't feel sorry for him at all even though I think that maybe we're supposed to.  I feel very sorry on the other hand for an Inquisitor who befriended or romanced him, and now has their friend or lover telling them these horrible things as if their relationship had never mattered.  Moreover, I agree with those who perceived that Solas wants to be proven wrong.

 

Agreed with all of this. They need to walk a very thin line here -- we're clearly supposed to feel something for Solas beside fury, but fostering that can't come at the cost of ignoring the harm he has already done, including to those who thought him a friend.

 

My personal take?  If the Fade and real world could be merged without killing everyone, I'd actually be all for it.  But the whole "everybody's going to die" thing?  Nope, I can't support that.  Sandal's prophecy implies it's going to happen no matter how we oppose it, though.  And it sort of fits with what I think DA's overarching theme is.  In other fantasy, you see magic and wonderment dying out.  In Dragon Age, we may be seeing magic's triumphant return.

 

You are definitely right that this is an unusual theme, and that if it wasn't for the horrendous cost, it would be both fascinating and refreshing. And I say that as someone who couldn't be arsed to play a mage in any DA game yet because I'm Team Warrior Tank all the way even when the crappy gameplay for that playstyle frustrates me. (The only reason why I'm even considering it now is the mutilation, which would likely affect a mage the least. Bleh. Still a horrible thing, though.) So I'm far from a mage-fanatic. But a truly high-magic setting, a ubiquitous-magic setting even, with the alienness as spirits nonetheless accepted as equals and all sorts of other wonders, could be a terrific background for a very different kind and "feel" of RPG than the more generic low-fantasy pseudo-medieval fare.

 

Of course if wouldn't be a utopia. The old elven empire wasn't. Cruely and selfishness don't disappear with more power, and there will always be there who have no use for the potential to develop greater understanding of others when said others can be enslaved instead. But it would be fascinating. Maybe that is why the horrendous cost and the reminder that the old days had plenty of horror too are there: so people don't jump on the bandwagon too readily.

[Dean_the_Young]

The best ways of dealing with Solas

 

1) Talking him out his plans.

 

2) Working with him to minimize the destruction that will happen from removing the Veil.

 

3) Using Seeker abilities to block him from using his magic and imprison him in a place that is covered in runes & glyphs that do something similar.

 

4) Find some method to sap him off his powers and make him mortal.

 

 

 

If you can do 3 and 4, you might as well kill him (since that's ultimately what will happen without his magic and/or immortality).  2 rather misses the point that the destruction of removing the Veil is the feature, not the bug, in the plan.

 

So either we talk him out of his plans, and hope/ensure he doesn't get any bright ideas in the future... or we kill him in an indeterminate amount of time.

 

 

Solas is as powerful, if not more powerful than the Evanuris. If the Evanuris cannot die so easily, I don't think he can as well.

 

 

 

If Solas were as powerful as the Evanuris, he would have overthrown them. He couldn't, and didn't.

 

 

 

I wished Bioware would have allowed our protagonist to point out the fact that we will have to deal with the Blight seeping out of Black City, the Titans waking up again, Great Dragons regaining sentience once more, everyone having magic and creatures such as the Nightmare in Adamant...to point all these out to Solas in the epilogue and explain to him that none of his plans will be good enough or foolproof enough to deal with all this.

 

 

You could point it out all you want. But you might have forgotten that Solas, ahem, is a bit prideful. And more than willing to accept rivers of blood if it furthers his goals.

 

Plus, 'deal with' is a relative term, and assumes Solas cares. That he thinks the Titans wakin would be a bad thing, or that he views the Great Dragons as a problem. That the Nightmare somehow disproves of the spirits he llikes.

 

But everyone having magic? That's kind of the point- by his own admission, a world without everyone having magic is like a world of Tranquil.

[Dean_the_Young]

But it's not about just the people or empires however. The very world of Thedas lives in an unnatural state. This is not how things should be. To Solas is more about restoring the natural order then restoring the ancient elves.

 

'Should' and 'natural' are two different things. Nor does 'natural' mean 'good.'

 

The state of the world now is not the way it once was. This alone is not justification to do things.

 

 

 

 

And you don't have a huge ego to think you know better then a guy that understands the world much more then you do?

 

 

No- on two grounds.

 

First, my ego doesn't confuse me on the distinction between 'understanding the world' and thinking I should do whatever I want to it.

 

Two, if Solas understood the world as much as he thought he did, he'd be far more successful.
 

 

You may criticize Solas, but what is *your* qualification on deciding on how the world should or shouldn't be?

 

 

Moral sanity.

 

That should be a beating qualifier over everyone who lacks it, right?
 

 

Pray you don't feel the horror of realizing you're not too different from Solas. People aways think they are the exception. They aways think they know better.

 

 

It's less that we think we're the exception, and more that we don't think we're the exception and can recognize Solas as an outlier.

[Dean_the_Young]

Your interpretation is more generous than mine, here. Didn't he say he intended to step through the Breach and finish his work from there? I didn't play it myself, but that's what I vaguely remember from a stream. Plus, what threw a spanner in his plans was that Corypheus didn't obligingly stay dead and somehow managed to regain the orb (I'm still completely baffled as to how he did that). So of course Solas had to favor closing the Breach and the rifts -- he had no way of surviving them or continuing his plans while Corpyheus still had his little toy.

 

 

Specifically, Solas says he was going to use the mark to enter the fade to tear down the Veil, with the expected outcome of the world burning in 'raw chaos' while he set up his deliberate racial supremacy society.

 

 

That is where I struggle. His mindset and plans are monstrous enough already. And did he really "make up" for anything when it was in fact simply a necessity of survival for him? Looking back, pretty much everything he said and did in Inquisition (aside from his honest care and kindness for Cole) is tainted now by knowing what he thinks of us all and what he is planning. It's really painful.

 

 

Never forget that the Breach is when Solas 'actually starts on his goals.' He bumbled it- it threw the world into a chaos that didn't benefit him- but it was pre-meditated attempt to start his intended course of action.

 

The dynamic for Solas isn't 'I'll stop him before he tries to commit an atrocious crime.' It's 'I'll stop him before he DOES commit an atrocious crime AGAIN.'

 

Solas isn't pending an attempt to shove the world off a cliff. He already did.

[diaspora2k5]

The best part is realizing that he was sad about the shattered Orb at the end not because it's a lost piece of history, but because its power is lost to him and delays his plans probably.

[Reznore57]

The best part is realizing that he was sad about the shattered Orb at the end not because it's a lost piece of history, but because its power is lost to him and delays his plans probably.

 

"Solas , are you alright?I'm sorry about the orb.Maybe we can repair it."

"No, it's too late.there's nothing we can do Inquisitor."

"There's more , isn't it?"

"I was planning on killing you all and destroying  the world , too.Please , leave me Inquisitor , I need a moment."

 

[Korva]

... it's a scary thought to consider that it wasn't the conclave disaster that brought the world closest to ruin, but the defeat of Corypheus. If the orb had remained intact, that would have been it right then and there.

[Jaison1986]

'Should' and 'natural' are two different things. Nor does 'natural' mean 'good.'

 

The state of the world now is not the way it once was. This alone is not justification to do things.

 

 

 

 

No- on two grounds.

 

First, my ego doesn't confuse me on the distinction between 'understanding the world' and thinking I should do whatever I want to it.

 

Two, if Solas understood the world as much as he thought he did, he'd be far more successful.
 

 

Moral sanity.

 

That should be a beating qualifier over everyone who lacks it, right?
 

 

It's less that we think we're the exception, and more that we don't think we're the exception and can recognize Solas as an outlier.

 

Not when all your options are ****, since separating the fade was the least destructive outcome compared to just letting the elven gods raze the planet to the ground. Understanding the world does not stop the people from it to screw things over.

 

No. Moral sanity is subjective. Morality is an human concept and human beings are the most flawed creatures in the world. Our flaws don't allow us to dictate what is absolute when it comes to morality.

 

For example, if killing 80% of the human population on earth gave us the guarantee that future generations would be able to live in a utopic lifestyle indefinitely, wouldn't that be better then letting everyone live at the cost of constant threath of extinction brought by overpopulation, war, famine and destruction of our natural resources to supply the masses? Some times, there no easy answers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not when all your options are ****, since separating the fade was the least destructive outcome compared to just letting the elven gods raze the planet to the ground. Understanding the world does not stop the people from it to screw things over.

 

The consequences of Solas raising the Veil is an example of unintended consequences even as they're a demonstration that he doesn't understand the world. But, because they were unintended and unknown, that is a mitigating factor- not an excusing one, but a mitigating one. As if the fact that god-tyrants were already procuring abilities (like the Blight) that could have destroyed the world. There were costs, but they were unknown at the time, and arguably not as severe as the alternative. This is why I do not lambast Solas for what he did in the past compared to what he intends to do in the present, except to point out the fallible nature of his intent.

 

Solas tearing down the Veil, on the other hand, has no such mitigating factors. The Veil is a limiting factor, not the enabler, of god-tyrants destroying the world for everyone else. The consequences are known. The needs and wellbeing of the many are not being served by tearing it down.

 

 

 

No. Moral sanity is subjective. Morality is an human concept and human beings are the most flawed creatures in the world. Our flaws don't allow us to dictate what is absolute when it comes to morality.

 

 

Moral sanity is a subjective, but a collective subjective. Our flaws don't allow us individually dictate what is absolute, but our culture allows us to come to a consensus about what is and is not morally acceptable. Extreme outliers- such as those that think mass genocide of people who don't see the world as they do is acceptable- can be identified for the deviants they are. That subjectivity comes not from them being deviant, but what the consensus was: Solas's genocide ambition would be morally defensible (or at least morally non-insane) if there was a signficiant consensus that genocide-because-personal-preference was a morally righteous thing.

 

If you wish to disregard basic morality in defending Solas, feel free to do so- but an appeal for ammorality, in defense of immorality, is one that no one else has to accept.

 

 

 

For example, if killing 80% of the human population on earth gave us the guarantee that future generations would be able to live in a utopic lifestyle indefinitely, wouldn't that be better then letting everyone live at the cost of constant threath of extinction brought by overpopulation, war, famine and destruction of our natural resources to supply the masses? Some times, there no easy answers.

 

 

Sometimes there aren't. In this case there is.

 

Solas is not offering future generations a utopic lifestyle indefinitely. Forget a guarantee, he's not even suggesting he has a solution to overpopulation, war, famine, destruction of natural resources, or threat of death or extinction. He is promising to deliver all of that, in an attempt to bring back a past era where all of that still applied.

[Dean_the_Young]

... it's a scary thought to consider that it wasn't the conclave disaster that brought the world closest to ruin, but the defeat of Corypheus. If the orb had remained intact, that would have been it right then and there.

 

Eh. Maybe, maybe not- Corypheus had access to the power of the orb, but he was still defeated. It's not clear how much stronger Solas could have been with it.

 

Even if Corypheus had died, Solas's plan would still have failed... because the Herald of Andraste still possessed the anchor, denying Solas the entrance to the Fade that he sought.

[Alpha452]

For Solas's crimes there is only one punishment suitable: Tranquility. He can't seem to learn from his own mistakes because each time he tried to make things better..he only succeeded in making them worse. So I say make him Tranquil and if that somehow doesn't work then use the solution derived during the French Revolution "Off with his head". I can see my Inquisitor doing it now while saying "Sorry Solas, in the end there can be only one."

[TEWR]

He wants to kill everyone who isnt an Ancient Elf, how is it not necessary?

 

Because he also wants to be proven wrong.

 

Fen'Harel the arrogant ancient Elf sees it as a necessary thing to do. Solas, the guy we came to know in the base game, understands how it's horrible and wants to be shown that it doesn't need to happen and welcomes being proven wrong again.

[Solas]

... it's a scary thought to consider that it wasn't the conclave disaster that brought the world closest to ruin, but the defeat of Corypheus. If the orb had remained intact, that would have been it right then and there.

(ʘ ᗩ ʘ)

[Boost32]

Because he also wants to be proven wrong.
 
Fen'Harel the arrogant ancient Elf sees it as a necessary thing to do. Solas, the guy we came to know in the base game, understands how it's horrible and wants to be shown that it doesn't need to happen and welcomes being proven wrong again.

And what about the people who were killed because of him? And what about those who will be killed because of him?
He is insane, he deserves to die to pay for his crimes.

[Jaison1986]

And what about the people who were killed because of him? And what about those who will be killed because of him?
He is insane, he deserves to die to pay for his crimes.

 

Huh, interesting I never saw you use that argument against the templars and other Chantry members, who also got countless people killed for their own goals. Oh wait, you actually support that kind of people.

 

He deserves to die for what he did, but the Chantry doesn't? As far as I remember, killing is killing no matter how you try to suggar coat it. So long as Solas doesn't complete his plan, he is no less irredeemable then anyone else.

[Hellion Rex]

Because he also wants to be proven wrong.

 

Fen'Harel the arrogant ancient Elf sees it as a necessary thing to do. Solas, the guy we came to know in the base game, understands how it's horrible and wants to be shown that it doesn't need to happen and welcomes being proven wrong again.

Why in the hell should we need to "prove him wrong"? He deserves nothing from us except death. Doesn't matter how bad he feels about what he must do. He will still do it, period.

[Boost32]

Huh, interesting I never saw you use that argument against the templars and other Chantry members, who also got countless people killed for their own goals. Oh wait, you actually support that kind of people.
 
He deserves to die for what he did, but the Chantry doesn't? As far as I remember, killing is killing no matter how you try to suggar coat it. So long as Solas doesn't complete his plan, he is no less irredeemable then anyone else.

The templars? The ones who were corrupt should be punished. And the mages they killed in the rebellion were a threat, they chose to rebel and were dangerous, I feel no pity for them. And one more time, mages prove me that they shouldnt be free, Solas is just one more drop in a barrel full of water.

You seem to think I like the Chantry, never cared about it until I put someone worth on the Sunburst Throne. And what crimes are you saying? The Exalted March on the Dales was justified, the elves attacked first, and the humans Qunari in Rivaini were brainwashed, putting them down was a favor.

Solas is already a monster, the Breach is his fault too. And why dont you answer my question? What about e people who were killed by his plan and the people who will die because of it? Its ok that they died? He is insane, he thought Corypheus blowing up thousands of people was ok, you are blind.

[Korva]

Eh. Maybe, maybe not- Corypheus had access to the power of the orb, but he was still defeated. It's not clear how much stronger Solas could have been with it.

 

Even if Corypheus had died, Solas's plan would still have failed... because the Herald of Andraste still possessed the anchor, denying Solas the entrance to the Fade that he sought.

 

Good point, actually. Hm. I'm not sure how Solas' original plan was supposed to work. If Corypheus had been the last person to touch the orb before it went boom, wouldn't he have had the Anchor -- meaning it would have been lost with his death? So Solas would have an active orb but not the Anchor, no safe passage through the Fade.

 

And I still want to know how Corypheus got the orb back.

[Dean_the_Young]

Good point, actually. Hm. I'm not sure how Solas' original plan was supposed to work. If Corypheus had been the last person to touch the orb before it went boom, wouldn't he have had the Anchor -- meaning it would have been lost with his death? So Solas would have an active orb but not the Anchor, no safe passage through the Fade.

 

And I still want to know how Corypheus got the orb back.

 

Between you, me, and the forum, I don't think they thought that part through.

[berelinde]

Good point, actually. Hm. I'm not sure how Solas' original plan was supposed to work. If Corypheus had been the last person to touch the orb before it went boom, wouldn't he have had the Anchor -- meaning it would have been lost with his death? So Solas would have an active orb but not the Anchor, no safe passage through the Fade.

 

And I still want to know how Corypheus got the orb back.

Solas: "I never said it was a good plan."

 

I don't know how much of this Solas actually thought through. Maybe he was groggy after waking up from uthenera. Seriously, dude, no more megalomanic plans to destroy the world before coffee, okay?

 

I'm joking, in case that wasn't immediately obvious. But that is one of Solas's failings. He and Isabela seem to approach long range goals the same way.

[sandalisthemaker]

Yep, Solas must die alright.

 

Ugh.  I refrained from attacking him on sight simply because I knew, I just *knew* that I wouldn't actually be able to do it, and attempting to do so would only make the Inquisitor look stupid and make Solas look all high and mighty.   I saw the result of "attacking" him on youtube and was right.

 

I have never wanted yolk to spill more than I do now. 

[S.W.]

For Solas's crimes there is only one punishment suitable: Tranquility. He can't seem to learn from his own mistakes because each time he tried to make things better..he only succeeded in making them worse. So I say make him Tranquil and if that somehow doesn't work then use the solution derived during the French Revolution "Off with his head". I can see my Inquisitor doing it now while saying "Sorry Solas, in the end there can be only one."

 

You might as well kill him if you don't trust him to not make more terrible, world-ending decisions.

 

Tranquillity is just cruel.

 

You could make a case for him deserving that punishment based on his deeds - that it would be just. But if your priority is damage prevention, it's an unnecessary step.