482 réponses à ce sujet

[PrettyFrog]

Bioware, was it really so much to ask for the chance to hit the egg elf in the face with a jar of bees?

[Korva]

Oh, and Cole still loves him so we have hope

 

(I meant to post something like this in the Cole thread, but that one looks dead again so I'll post it here instead.)

 

See, that's what I held on to when I feared for the worst after that post-credits revelation cutscene and after Solas messing with Cole's mind. Turns out it's a lot worse than what I feared, and now I'm concerned that Cole -- who already had by far the least content in Trespasser for no explicable reason -- is going to be used as less of a character in his own right and more of an author's mouthpiece to push a future redemption arc. The bond between Solas and Cole was real, definitely more real than Solas' pretend-friendships with the rest of the Inquisition. But the writers can't keep stretching that bond without freely acknowledging two things: 1) the sheer scale of the horror that Solas is planning and has always been planning, and 2) the fact that Cole is not a wet blanket who doesn't know where to draw the line. All the references to the good Solas did in the distant past and how sad he is and how he doesn't really want to hurt people mean jack sh*t when Solas IS in fact hurting people and shows no inclination to stop.

 

On the more-spirit path, Cole explictly speaks about his feelings about fighting and killing alongside us: it's hard for him because people could change if they wanted to ... but if they choose to hurt others, they must be stopped. How does this not apply to Solas as well? Obviously, at this point Solas is likely beyond any physical harm that even a super-fast, super-deadly killer like Cole could inflict. It might well be that any future confrontation with Solas will never be a generic bossfight (in fact, I'd welcome that). Still, there are other ways of opposing Solas' atrocious plans, and then writers need to show Cole doing that. It's one thing to have Compassion incarnate point out that Solas is hurting -- that's fine, of course Cole feels it, of course he'd rather heal it. But Solas' pain isn't the only pain, nor does it override the pain of his many past and intended future victims, even if they are "collateral damage" instead of targets of deliberate malice. If they continue to only use Cole to push the "poor sad Solas" angle, it'll break the character ... and he deserves better than that.

 

Again: I WISH I could see a redemptive angle in all this. I really do, or all this wouldn't worry and upset me as much it does. However, the scale of what Solas is doing and already has done is something that even my favourite Bioware companion (Cole) can't balance anymore.

Modifié par Korva, 14 septembre 2015 - 09:56 .

[Hellion Rex]

It depends. I have recently theorized Solas might be bound to Mythal's Will as the Inquisitor is if they drink from the Well. He hints at it when he is angry at you for drinking from it. He says you will do and think things that are for her and not yourself. I think he was once her slave (why he hates slavery and forced servitude), rebelled and removed his markings, but because he is bound, he did everything for her. Either we kill him to save him from his enslavement or find what remains of Mythal and sever the ties.

I disagree with a lot of that. I think he was never her slave. I think he became Evanuris when the others did.

[Dean_the_Young]

(I meant to post something like this in the Cole thread, but that one looks dead again so I'll post it here instead.)

 

See, that's what I held on to when I feared for the worst after that post-credits revelation cutscene and after Solas messing with Cole's mind. Turns out it's a lot worse than what I feared, and now I'm concerned that Cole -- who already had by far the least content in Trespasser for no explicable reason -- is going to be used as less of a character in his own right and more of an author's mouthpiece to push a future redemption arc. The bond between Solas and Cole was real, definitely more real than Solas' pretend-friendships with the rest of the Inquisition. But the writers can't keep stretching that bond without freely acknowledging two things: 1) the sheer scale of the horror that Solas is planning and has always been planning, and 2) the fact that Cole is not a wet blanket who doesn't know where to draw the line. All the references to the good Solas did in the distant past and how sad he is and how he doesn't really want to hurt people mean jack sh*t when Solas IS in fact hurting people and shows no inclination to stop.

 

On the more-spirit path, Cole explictly speaks about his feelings about fighting and killing alongside us: it's hard for him because people could change if they wanted to ... but if they choose to hurt others, they must be stopped. How does this not apply to Solas as well? Obviously, at this point Solas is likely beyond any physical harm that even a super-fast, super-deadly killer like Cole could inflict. It might well be that any future confrontation with Solas will never be a generic bossfight (in fact, I'd welcome that). Still, there are other ways of opposing Solas' atrocious plans, and then writers need to show Cole doing that. It's one thing to have Compassion incarnate point out that Solas is hurting -- that's fine, of course Cole feels it, of course he'd rather heal it. But Solas' pain isn't the only pain, nor does it override the pain of his countless future victims, even if they are "collateral damage" instead of targets of deliberate malice. If they continue to only use Cole to push the "poor sad Solas" angle, it'll break the character ... and he deserves better than that.

 

Even though I don't actually like Cole myself, I've wondered if he's too useful a character for the authors to let go. Character himself aside, his abilities for insight and cryptic **** was very important for understanding the lore and various actors of the game, which in many places made him the defacto Voice of God in-setting about what certain people's views were.

 

Even if Cole himself doesn't return, I wonder if we're going to get more Cole-like spirits- beings that can discern and decipher characters motivations and fade-echoes- that serve his narrative role. We've had, what, a spirit companion or abomination every game so far? Wynn (kinda-abomination), Justice (spirit- though not with the mind-reading), Vengeance-Anders, and Cole. Each time they've gotten more relevant for understanding characters and context as subject matter experts.

 

I wonder what our next spirit-influenced companion will be. A Rivaini witch with a spirit side? A benign (or at least non-malevolent) Desire demon?

[Hellion Rex]

 A benign (or at least non-malevolent) Desire demon?

*slams fist on the table*

 

Yes. Gimme!

[Steelcan]

*slams fist on the table*

 

Yes. Gimme!

ugh we had one

 

choice

 

spirit

[Lady Elsa]

 

 

Again: I WISH I could see a redemptive angle in all this. I really do, or all this wouldn't worry and upset me as much it does. However, the scale of what Solas is doing and already has done is something that even my favourite Bioware companion (Cole) can't balance anymore.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure if Solas's story is supposed to be redemptive in a positive sense? At least I didn't get that feeling. My human warrior chose to try and change his mind (they were friends in the end despite disagreeing on many things) but I feel like Solas's story is meant to be inherently tragic? - his plan could very well back-fire or have unwanted consequences in which case his 'redemption' might be to sacrifice himself to fix it. He might already fear that it would be a disaster but still feels compelled to try because of pride or because he feels he has nothing to lose. For me he is an intriguing character, a great antagonist, but I don't feel sorry for him as his troubles are of his own making. In my opinion he can not be saved (from destruction) any more but he might be influenced to change his actions when it counts...

[Ramification]

Oh, is it? Because that's exactly what he said. Everybody besides him and his elvhen buddys are tranquil to him. Inferior.

I think most of the races in Thedas have a superiority complex. They all fail in their own special ways. Humans haven't been kind to the elves and parts of their history could be labeled as a type of genocide. The Qun has some pretty terrifying ideas about world domination too. From an outsider perspective, I just don't see any race as deserving to be in the drivers seat.


Weirdly enough, Solas strongly argues against nationalism and racial bias in several conversations. He's one confused elf. I personally don't believe he views his plan as a racial cleansing. It's more like he blames himself for messing up what he considered to be a beautiful world and believes a hard restart will set it right. He's being super short sighted and distracted by his own importance/role in the current state of affairs. Instead of "superiority" I would accuse him of fatalism, stubbornness and a certain narrow mindedness around this subject.

In the end all the races are screwed if someone doesn't go all Ghandi on that hot mess.


I want to add that although I think you make valid points, bringing Nazi's into any discussion winds up feeling loaded. No one wants to argue a pro Nazi agenda so it essentially shuts everyone down. This is true on any forum really. Either way, I do appreciate your thoughts and responses and I do think you have a very valid point in not agreeing with Solas at all! I Just want you to understand my comment about Godwin's Law.

[Ramification]

(I meant to post something like this in the Cole thread, but that one looks dead again so I'll post it here instead.)

 

See, that's what I held on to when I feared for the worst after that post-credits revelation cutscene and after Solas messing with Cole's mind. Turns out it's a lot worse than what I feared, and now I'm concerned that Cole -- who already had by far the least content in Trespasser for no explicable reason -- is going to be used as less of a character in his own right and more of an author's mouthpiece to push a future redemption arc. The bond between Solas and Cole was real, definitely more real than Solas' pretend-friendships with the rest of the Inquisition. But the writers can't keep stretching that bond without freely acknowledging two things: 1) the sheer scale of the horror that Solas is planning and has always been planning, and 2) the fact that Cole is not a wet blanket who doesn't know where to draw the line. All the references to the good Solas did in the distant past and how sad he is and how he doesn't really want to hurt people mean jack sh*t when Solas IS in fact hurting people and shows no inclination to stop.

 

On the more-spirit path, Cole explictly speaks about his feelings about fighting and killing alongside us: it's hard for him because people could change if they wanted to ... but if they choose to hurt others, they must be stopped. How does this not apply to Solas as well? Obviously, at this point Solas is likely beyond any physical harm that even a super-fast, super-deadly killer like Cole could inflict. It might well be that any future confrontation with Solas will never be a generic bossfight (in fact, I'd welcome that). Still, there are other ways of opposing Solas' atrocious plans, and then writers need to show Cole doing that. It's one thing to have Compassion incarnate point out that Solas is hurting -- that's fine, of course Cole feels it, of course he'd rather heal it. But Solas' pain isn't the only pain, nor does it override the pain of his many past and intended future victims, even if they are "collateral damage" instead of targets of deliberate malice. If they continue to only use Cole to push the "poor sad Solas" angle, it'll break the character ... and he deserves better than that.

 

Again: I WISH I could see a redemptive angle in all this. I really do, or all this wouldn't worry and upset me as much it does. However, the scale of what Solas is doing and already has done is something that even my favourite Bioware companion (Cole) can't balance anymore.

Such a good post and great insights here. I also don't want to lean on Cole to believe Solas can be saved. I want to see it with my own eyes. 

 

I do think he can be saved but much like real life, he will need to do most of the work himself. That means toppling an entire belief systems that he seems to have pretty well shored up. 

 

BTW I think Solas's plans for world death include his own death. Living is the harder path to walk. In this I think he's acting the coward. 

 

But you know I could see this going down all "Raistlin" style in the end too. 

[Reznore57]

I disagree with a lot of that. I think he was never her slave. I think he became Evanuris when the others did.

 

I don't think the 9 Creators got their status at the same time.

It seems the first were Mythal and Elgarn'han , and Ghilan'nain and Solas came after .

Andruil pushed for GHilan'nain godhood , and Mythal probably helped Solas.

But it seems at first he was only her champion , she may have made him "ascend" when she figured out the other Creators were getting out of hands , and she needed an ally.

[GrinningRogue]

"We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."

 

I think Solas will succeed in tearing down the veil, no matter what. Guessing the next thing is for us to make sure as many people as possible survive that change. My guess for a way out: we make everyone tranquil and hope the fade blasting into reality restores everyone. That way everyone will be on autopilot for survival during the worst times. And since tranquils are pretty peaceful by nature, they wouldn't start more problems and wouldn't panic. They would also not attract demons. Everyone would be like Javik being blasted into the future via cryogenic, but with less scarring.

 

tbh though, I do want to see what it would be like if there's no veil. It would definitely solve the mage problem for good (since everyone would probably be a mage). I just don't like the loads of people dying part.

[Tielis]

Sandal said it too.

 

"One day the magic will come back - all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see."

 

Solas is going to succeed.

 

And I welcome it.  I don't welcome the clean up job, but I think a new setting would be very interesting.

[Korva]

That's how he felt when he first woke-up, if you befriended him he doesn't believe that anymore. It doesn't change what he feels like he needs to do, but he doesn't view all the other people as being not people though.

 

Doesn't he? In the stream I watched, the (human) Inquisitor had clearly been on good terms with him before but chose quite a few confrontational replies here, among them the bitter accusation that "we are not even people to you". He didn't try to lie, but he also didn't have spine enough to admit the truth, so his response was just a brief telling silence followed by a change of subject.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure if Solas's story is supposed to be redemptive in a positive sense? At least I didn't get that feeling. My human warrior chose to try and change his mind (they were friends in the end despite disagreeing on many things) but I feel like Solas's story is meant to be inherently tragic?

 

[...]

 

For me he is an intriguing character, a great antagonist, but I don't feel sorry for him as his troubles are of his own making. In my opinion he can not be saved (from destruction) any more but he might be influenced to change his actions when it counts...

 

Yes, I agree that if I can imagine a working redemption angle at all, it won't be like Blackwall's who truly turned himself around through much (if flawed) atonement and struggle and became a better person living a better life. At best it might be a Darth Vader-style sacrificial death followed by one final moment of re-connecting with his friend(s) ... maybe the inadvertedly freed "gods" will be the Emperor to his Vader, or maybe his own plans will be his Emperor. Both might work. Still. I do think that we are clearly "supposed" to feel bad for Solas in some way, and Cole is a tool for pushing that angle to a degree that I am worried it makes him less himself and more of an author's mouthpiece.
 

Such a good post and great insights here. I also don't want to lean on Cole to believe Solas can be saved. I want to see it with my own eyes.

 

Thank you. Cole, especially Cole-as-our-friend, definitely got the short end of the stick in this DLC -- I'd loathe to see Weekes "sacrificing" one of his characters to prop up an intended redemption angle for the other. We absolutely do need some actual signs from Solas himself that he might be saved before I can believe it ... and a sign that even Cole's compassion isn't without bounds, not when it would mean ignoring others' hurts in favor of "poor sad Solas".

 

I do think he can be saved but much like real life, he will need to do most of the work himself. That means toppling an entire belief systems that he seems to have pretty well shored up.

 

Agreed. That could make for a truly fascinating and very different climax compared to the usual obligatory bossfights ... and  I definitely want both the Inquistor (under player control!) and Cole to be part of it.

[Cobra's_back]

Well yeah most people would want to kill him but the reason why he likes you so much is because you have an open mind and you are thoughtful. Hence he leaks approval when you ask him questions and you are observant about stuff. He would expect you to try and kill him but instead you wish to save him from himself and that's why he likes you so much. 

 

That's why he wishes you to prove him wrong because you have done it so many times you are always beating his expectations hence why he believes you can do it. 

 

Let's hope we have the option. I'm not sure we will get one. It might take removing "dread wolf" from Solas. 

[Arlee]

 

Doesn't he? In the stream I watched, the (human) Inquisitor had clearly been on good terms with him before but chose quite a few confrontational replies here, among them the bitter accusation that "we are not even people to you". He didn't try to lie, but he also didn't have spine enough to admit the truth, so his response was just a brief telling silence followed by a change of subject.

 

Huh, that's interesting. I've only finished this DLC on my human Cullenmace IQ but in this convo when that part came up Solas specifically said he felt that way at first. but the Inquisitor showed him how wrong he had been.

[Arlee]

Bugs most likely. Lots of saves are not importing to the DLC correctly and quests and approval are set to as if we did nothing.

 

High approval Solas will admit you are people now. Low approval Solas will not.

 

Sounds right for me then. I know this IQ had pretty much perfect approval from him. This was even the one PT I did where I exiled the Wardens ><

[Korva]

Ugh, the bugs. Releasing a game-ending DLC in such a state is something they should be ashamed of. So is high-approval Solas supposed to admit he was wrong, "even" when the Inquisitor is confrontational? He does view others as people and isn't trying to convince himself that they aren't? I'm ... not quite sure how I feel about that, i.e. is it a good sign or a bad one. What kind of utter mental compartmentalization is this guy capable of if he lives with us for three years, comes to see us as people and even friends, but still plans to destroy our world ASAP during that whole time?

 

Maybe I need to try to find another video of a non-romance, high-approval but confrontational (without trying to attack) version of the talk and hope it's not bugged ...

[Xilizhra]

Ugh, the bugs. Releasing a game-ending DLC in such a state is something they should be ashamed of. So is high-approval Solas supposed to admit he was wrong, "even" when the Inquisitor is confrontational? He does view others as people and isn't trying to convince himself that they aren't? I'm ... not quite sure how I feel about that, i.e. is it a good sign or a bad one. What kind of utter mental compartmentalization is this guy capable of if he lives with us for three years, comes to see us as people and even friends, but still plans to destroy our world ASAP during that whole time?

 

Maybe I need to try to find another video of a non-romance, high-approval but confrontational (without trying to attack) version of the talk and hope it's not bugged ...

I can understand it completely. He just has to believe that the prize--the healing of the world and the restoration of the elves--is worth it. He seems himself as necessarily evil.

[Cobra's_back]

Hmm, I'm not sure if Solas's story is supposed to be redemptive in a positive sense? At least I didn't get that feeling. My human warrior chose to try and change his mind (they were friends in the end despite disagreeing on many things) but I feel like Solas's story is meant to be inherently tragic? - his plan could very well back-fire or have unwanted consequences in which case his 'redemption' might be to sacrifice himself to fix it. He might already fear that it would be a disaster but still feels compelled to try because of pride or because he feels he has nothing to lose. For me he is an intriguing character, a great antagonist, but I don't feel sorry for him as his troubles are of his own making. In my opinion he can not be saved (from destruction) any more but he might be influenced to change his actions when it counts...

 

I agree. Solas is the villain that sees himself as the savior. Power and endless time corrupts. He is not saving the elves. They really aren't like him. That was the problem before. His kind enslaved the others. The real problem with the elves was a lack of independence, because they relied on his kind. Some elves managed to change with their removal. Sera a modern elf is independent, and doesn't need them. 

 

All living organisms are flawed, and Solas can't handle flaws. He destroys in the hope of finding perfect which can't exist. His kind makes this worst because they live forever and never evolve. 

 

As a villain he is one of the best because he thinks he is doing the right thing and is very charming. I had my elf romance him, and stated she would try to change his mind knowing that might end him. 

[AstraDrakkar]

Just a thought: Solas is the Dread Wolf. The Dread Wolf has been associated with trickery at least by some. I have a feeling that whatever decision our PC would make regarding his redemption or destruction, it will be the wrong one because "he has fooled us". In other words, there will be repercussions no matter what our decision.......

 

Despite that, I still feel that the only way to eliminate the danger permanently is to kill him.

[Cobra's_back]

I can understand it completely. He just has to believe that the prize--the healing of the world and the restoration of the elves--is worth it. He seems himself as necessarily evil.

 

That is his flawed logic. Since he can't heal the world. It will always be flawed. It also makes him the ideal villain.