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[jellobell]

If they can't, they need to learn empathy for their enemies and how to resist bias with their friends. Because Solas is, and now we know always has been, the real enemy of Dragon Age Inquisition.

To be fair, my main Inquisitor is the type to try and redeem pretty much everyone. But they're also only human (or elfen, or dwarven...) They're going to feel bad about killing someone they've known and loved for years any way you shake it.

 

Remember ye long time ago at the start of Dragon Age Inquisition? The Breach and the whole demonic invasion? That wasn't Corypheus's plan going awry. That was Solas's plan going right. Solas wasn't tricked out of his orb, some victim of desperation and confusion: he knew what Corypheus was going to do, and why, led him to do it. The Inquistiion's mandate about finding who was behind the Breach? Corypheus might have been behind the Breach, but Solas was behind Corypheus- and not by accident.

Indeed. Though he underestimated Cory, thinking that he'd be killed upon opening it rather than taking control of the orb himself. He never wanted the demonic invasion to happen.

 

I find Solas's ambitions about as sympathetic as Corypheus's- the fact that they both thought they were both dealing with displacement culture shock, believed they were doing something really good for the world, and took it upon themselves to play god to 'fix' things doesn't really change what they're responsible for. Solas expressing a bit more empathy doesn't change that he's a mass murderer, and aspires to even greater atrocities.

The explosion at the conclave was more of a mass-manslaughter, but I agree. Understanding why Solas is doing what he's doing doesn't excuse his actions (it's a lot of fun to talk about though). But he also hasn't gone completely off the cliff yet. Ideally, I'd like to stop him by convincing him to halt his plans, which he already seems conflicted about. I really like stories where you can talk the villain down (like Saren in mass effect 1). 

 

Me, myself, and millions of other people who don't consider 'genocide' an appropriate solution to homesickness and guilt.

 

If you're driven by guilt, take it out on yourself- not on (even more) innocents.

 

You do not save the village by burning it to the ground. You do not recreate the past by destroying the present. And killing perfectly content people is not putting them out of their misery.

No argument here. But there's hints that with the veil up, the world itself may be dying. The elven race certainly is. What if your choice was to sacrifice a million people so that an asteroid wouldn't wipe out all life on earth? Not saying that's a perfect comparison, but there are still things we don't know.

 

Alternately, there's the In Hushed Whispers example again. What if Solas's plan involves a similar "reset" strategy? Future!Leliana goes off on Dorian for not treating the people in that timeline and their suffering as "real". They still existed. And the inquisitor still used their sacrifices as a way to get the world back to normal.

 

Anyways, not trying to justify Solas's plan or his actions. I very much want to stop him. But I also have a lot of fun analyzing his motivations. Which I don't believe counts as sweeping his negative qualities under the rug.

[Vit246]

But think of all hats we could design now that we don't have to accommodate their silly pointy ears. At least consider genocide from a purely fashion angle. 

 

Haven't you learned by now that hats in dragon age are a fashion abomination?

 

Well.... Solas's hat in the winter palace was pretty ghastly.....

[Vit246]

the post was probably a bit flippant

 

but as i expanded i dislike the "elven trope" that is used in every fantasy film/rpg/book/comic/fanfic that they are the superior/artistic/nature loving perfection of the world that was ruined by the arrival of man,which this dlc actually shows they caused most of it themselves

 

*shrug* Well, the elves in Dragon Age were never perfect and the arrival of man did result in centuries of enslavement and loss of knowledge.

[Hellion Rex]

And remember, people:

 

No matter how many millions of people have been killed, enslaved, or otherwise suffered as a direct result of your actions and intentions... being interesting (and attractive) makes it all go away.

 

 

If they can't, they need to learn empathy for their enemies and how to resist bias with their friends. Because Solas is, and now we know always has been, the real enemy of Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

Remember ye long time ago at the start of Dragon Age Inquisition? The Breach and the whole demonic invasion? That wasn't Corypheus's plan going awry. That was Solas's plan going right. Solas wasn't tricked out of his orb, some victim of desperation and confusion: he knew what Corypheus was going to do, and why, led him to do it. The Inquistiion's mandate about finding who was behind the Breach? Corypheus might have been behind the Breach, but Solas was behind Corypheus- and not by accident.

 

I find Solas's ambitions about as sympathetic as Corypheus's- the fact that they both thought they were both dealing with displacement culture shock, believed they were doing something really good for the world, and took it upon themselves to play god to 'fix' things doesn't really change what they're responsible for. Solas expressing a bit more empathy doesn't change that he's a mass murderer, and aspires to even greater atrocities.

 

Solas isn't someone who screwed up in the distant past, but may commit a deliberate crime in the indefinite future if not stopped. Solas is someone who screwed up in the distant past, but deliberatly initiated the apocalypse a second time not three years ago, and having seen that has decided that third time's the charm, for reals this time.

 

 

 

 

 

Me, myself, and millions of other people who don't consider 'genocide' an appropriate solution to homesickness and guilt.

 

If you're driven by guilt, take it out on yourself- not on (even more) innocents.

 

You do not save the village by burning it to the ground. You do not recreate the past by destroying the present. And killing perfectly content people is not putting them out of their misery.

Preach it, Prophet Dean!

 

[Dean_the_Young]

To be fair, my main Inquisitor is the type to try and redeem pretty much everyone. But they're also only human (or elfen, or dwarven...) They're going to feel bad about killing someone they've known and loved for years any way you shake it.

 

 

Indeed. Though he underestimated Cory, thinking that he'd be killed upon opening it rather than taking control of the orb himself. He never wanted the demonic invasion to happen.

 

Yes, Solas did.

 

The demonic invasion was the consequence of the fade merging with the real world by the Breach. The Breach was caused by the explosion that accompanied unlocking the orb. Unlocking the orb was the entire point of giving it to Corypheus with the 'how to' notes.

 

Unless I completely misunderstood the end-conversation, Solas's plan was 'Corypheus would die activating the orb, I'd take the anchor and go into the Fade, and Thedas would burn while I pushed my plans forward.'

 

The demonic invasion wasn't a bug. It was the feature.

 

 

The explosion at the conclave was more of a mass-manslaughter, but I agree. Understanding why Solas is doing what he's doing doesn't excuse his actions (it's a lot of fun to talk about though). But he also hasn't gone completely off the cliff yet. Ideally, I'd like to stop him by convincing him to halt his plans, which he already seems conflicted about. I really like stories where you can talk the villain down (like Saren in mass effect 1). 

 

 

He thinks genocide will allow him to restore a world that only he and a handful of others remember. Solas's ambition is as insane as Corypheus's idea of restoring Tevinter.

 

So was Tevinter irrevocably shattered, so are the Elves. The elves that remain are not his culture. They are not his people. And killing many of them, and most everyone else, will not bring his people back.

 

Solas is insane.

 

 

 

 

No argument here. But there's hints that with the veil up, the world itself may be dying. The elven race certainly is. What if your choice was to sacrifice a million people so that an asteroid wouldn't wipe all life on earth? Not saying that's a perfect comparison, but there are still things we don't know.

 

 

And there are things we have no reason to believe- such as that the world itself is dying. This isn't a perfect comparison- it's an outright false comparison.

 

Solas isn't acting to save the world. He specifically rejects that justification. Solas is working to destroy the world, so that he can have it the way he wants it.

 

 

 

Alternately, there's the In Hushed Whispers example again. What if Solas's plan involves a similar "reset" strategy? Future!Leliana goes off on Dorian for not treating the people in that timeline and their suffering as "real". They still existed. And the inquisitor still used their sacrifices as a way to get the world back to normal.

 

 

Solas is not casting his argument in terms of 'I'm going to prevent this from happening.' Solas casts his argument in terms of 'I'm going to kill a lot of innocent people.'

 

 

Anyways, not trying to justify Solas's plan or his actions. I very much want to stop him. But I also have a lot of fun analyzing his motivations. Which I don't believe counts as sweeping his negative qualities under the rug.

 

 

Start by accepting that he is insane, and immoral, and we can begin analysing the motivations for his depravity. Because, by any current mainstream standard I can think of, Solas's moral justifications at this stage fit 'depraved.'

 

If you wish to avoid any confusion or suspicion of sweeping Solas's negative qualities under the rug, I suggest you don't invent justifications for him that he does not use that would do just that.

[Hellion Rex]

. And killing many of them, and most everyone else, will not bring his people back.

 

Solas is insane.

Um, point of order, Dean. At one point, Cole reads Solas's mind, and mentions something that made it sounds like there are ancient elves locked in either stasis or some type sleep, perhaps even uthenera. So they may possibly not be dead.

 

Found the quote.

 

Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same.

Cole: You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't.

Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them... (Gasps.) Where did it go?

[Dean_the_Young]

Um, point of order, Dean. At one point, Cole reads Solas's mind, and mentions something that made it sounds like there are ancient elves locked in either stasis or some type sleep, perhaps even uthenera. So they may possibly not be dead.

 

Found the quote.

 

Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same.

Cole: You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't.

Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them... (Gasps.) Where did it go?

 

Ah, forgive me. I was making the mistake of forgetting that Solas isn't simply a racist, but a cultural chauvinist.

 

The modern elves are not 'his people,' so to be fair he can get as many of them killed as he wants.

[Hellion Rex]

Ah, forgive me. I was making the mistake of forgetting that Solas isn't simply a racist, but a cultural chauvinist.

 

The modern elves are not 'his people,' so to be fair he can get as many of them killed as he wants.

I wasn't disputing you, I was just clarifying that he could possibly "resurrect the ancient elves" while still killing the modern elves in the process.

[psychocandy]

*shrug* Well, the elves in Dragon Age were never perfect and the arrival of man did result in centuries of enslavement and loss of knowledge.

 no it didn't.....humans didn't cause any of the loss of knowledge..someone else did that...maybe an elf?

[Hellion Rex]

Also, I've been thinking about the modern elves who have supposedly left to join FH's group. Are they really getting a seat at the table, or are they just pawns to be used in the name of the ancient elves?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The inaccuracies that are present here are astounding. Corypheus did not try to destroy the Veil. The Veil has already come into existence during his time.

 

What he wanted, what Corypheus truly craved was to simply gain access to the Black City so that he may gain something and then rule from the Black City as a god and raise Tevinter up.

 

Destroying the Veil was never part of Corypheus plans. He merely wishes to assault the heavens and enter the Fade physically. That is all he actually sought. The Veil tearing up the way it did in the dark future is probably a side effect. Recall FleMythal who says that Corypheus is:- "The Tevinter magister that grasps beyond his reach". She knew he would go out of control.

 

What's more, further exploration will reveal that Solas actually had a very good reason for creating the Veil:- http://forum.bioware...are-the-titans/

 

The Evanuris were doing something really f**ked up with the Titans. I would not surprised if that something involves creation of the Blight. They were also killing Titans off for Lyrium.

 

Additionally they engaged in civil wars (most likely using Red Lyrium and/or the Blight, which can be seen in Elven drawings where Elves are marching to war looking like zombies with a red mark on them) which threatened to destroy the world. Recall Solas saying that Falon'Din's vanity caused enough people to die so as to have enough blood to fill oceans.

 

The Evanuris are bad news. Perhaps creating the Veil was the right answers. As for him wanting to tear it down now, I do not think it is a good idea for him to do it because evil Evanuris but I do not see the point of killing him. Depowering him or talking him out of it ? Yes. Killing him ? He is the last of the ancient Elvhen figure of leadership. I do not want to simply kill someone like that away. Its like killing off Urthemiel without performing the Dark Ritual. Magics of old and powers that were must be preserved.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Not only is Solas's plan crazy, it will probably not even work as he will intend it to.

 

Hmm... a cup with dark, steaming liquid. Why don't I take a sip of that.... *sips* ... eew, tea! I loathe the stuff.

 

Yeah, gee, who would have thought there would be tea in a teacup?? Real curveball right there.

[Hellion Rex]

 Magics of old and powers that were must be preserved.

Nope. Off with his head!

 

One of my favorites lines in DAI was Flemeth admonishing Morrigan for being so desperate to preserve the powers that were. I got the sense that Mythal knew that the time of the elves was over. So, in my opinion, it's best to let the ancient elven people and magic fade into history.

[myahele]

Um, point of order, Dean. At one point, Cole reads Solas's mind, and mentions something that made it sounds like there are ancient elves locked in either stasis or some type sleep, perhaps even uthenera. So they may possibly not be dead.

 

Found the quote.

 

Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same.

Cole: You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't.

Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them... (Gasps.) Where did it go?

Yeah, prior to the DLC I thought that was talking about the Elvhen Pantheon. Given that he doesnt seem to have any remorse for them then I think it could be that he sealed in up many of his freed slave/ companion in an eluvian so they all can wait it out and be safe when the veil went up.

 

Seems like the plan was they all go to sleep when the veil goes up, wake up and enjoy the new world ... but clearly something went wrong. For one thing, he wasnt awakened until a year prior to DAI 

[ComedicSociopathy]

 Not only is Solas's plan crazy, it will probably not even work as he will intend it to.

 

Hmm... a cup with dark, steaming liquid. Why don't I take a sip of that.... *sips* ... eew, tea! I loathe the stuff.

 

Yeah, gee, who would have thought there would be tea in a teacup?? Real curveball right there.

 

Calling it right now. His plan blows up in his face and he ends up freeing the elven gods.

 

Dalish, beware. Andruil's calling a hunting season on your asses. 

[jellobell]

Yes, Solas did.

 

The demonic invasion was the consequence of the fade merging with the real world by the Breach. The Breach was caused by the explosion that accompanied unlocking the orb. Unlocking the orb was the entire point of giving it to Corypheus with the 'how to' notes.

 

Unless I completely misunderstood the end-conversation, Solas's plan was 'Corypheus would die activating the orb, I'd take the anchor and go into the Fade, and Thedas would burn while I pushed my plans forward.'

 

The demonic invasion wasn't a bug. It was the feature.

The reason the breach was a problem was that Cory was missing the anchor and thus couldn't fully control the orb. The Inquisitor was shown to be able to use the anchor in order to physically enter the Fade without calling down a demonic invasion.

 

I guess the problem I'm having is, why try to stop Cory at all if what he wanted was exactly what happened? The sense that I got was that tearing down the veil the "right" way would cause unspecified chaos (Solas says the world would "burn") but not create any demons. Because Solas was always so horrified at how the veil tears were turning innocent spirits into demons.

 

I mean, it doesn't really make it any better, but I still don't think a demonic invasion was in the cards for Solas.

[Hellion Rex]

The sense that I got was that tearing down the veil the "right" way would cause unspecified chaos (Solas says the world would "burn") but not create any demons. Because Solas was always so horrified at how the veil tears were turning innocent spirits into demons.

I disagree. Mixing reality with the Fade would hardly stop demons and spirits wreaking havoc across the mortal plane. The sense that I got from Solas saying the world would burn would be the people down below on the earth would suffer from a rejoining of the worlds where demons and spirits run loose and destroy the world, while the ancient elves look down from on high.

[jellobell]

I disagree. Mixing reality with the Fade would hardly stop demons and spirits wreaking havoc across the mortal plane. The sense that I got from Solas saying the world would burn would be the people down below on the earth would suffer from a rejoining of the worlds where demons and spirits run loose and destroy the world, while the ancient elves look down from on high.

Bleh. Then why teach the Inquisitor how to shut veil tears? Or help them stop Cory at all? You may be right, but it's all just so vague.

 

Like his reason for alerting the Inquisitor to the Qunari invasion; so people will be happy before he destroys the world? And why save the Inquisitor at all? He keeps contradicting himself. Like he's vacillating between caring and not caring. 

[Aren]

The most funny thing is that he says eternal suffering in the fade is a fair punishment for the elven gods because they killed Mythal, but he killed Muthal too and doesnt seem to upset because of that, lol.

what what,when he killed Mythal? He took willingly her power by Mythal concession,which is vastly different,from what you said.

Mythal wasn't killed by Solas,at best you can say that Flemeth was

[ThePhoenixKing]

Calling it right now. His plan blows up in his face and he ends up freeing the elven gods.

 

Considering how every single one of his other plans have completely blown up in his face, I really can't imagine there'd be any other outcome here.

[myahele]

Flemeth was not Elvhen so he killed her. Human vessel for Mythal is such an insult to him.

[chsskatze]

Solas fucked it up once,the result of that leading to the world we know today. It's been a thousand years since he created the veil or something like that right? A thousand years is A LOT of time,time enough for something,even as big as what he did,to "fade away". It was just part of Thedas' history now and the world has passed that,changed,evolved. The thing is,for him it wasn't a thousand years,it's all still too fresh in his memory,he still feels guilty and responsible for it. Does he really seem to have complete control and knowlegde about what he wants to do? What if he's wrong? What if it doesn't help at all? What if he fucks up again trying to undo his **** and ends up destroying the world,and who knows maybe the fade as well,and whatever he thinks would happen doesn't really?

 

Also, he said he locked the evanuris away but what happened to the other elves? You'd assume if they lost their immortality they'd be dead by now wherever they were,and if he destroys this world including elves then who is going to be left? Does he expect that the current elves gain their immortality/magic back?

 

I'd be all about tearing the veil down if it wouldn't cause the world to go to **** or everyone to die or whatever really would happen. He's not very clear about it. Thing is,this is about him,not really trying to fix things that don't need to be fixed anymore,or making elves' lives better. Not his ****** place to decide what to do with the world too.

 

I'll try my best to convince him not to **** up again,but if I really,really can't,then I'll have no problem with killing him. What I would do for sure is spread the word of what really happened to the elves and the evanuris,tell the dalish to ****** chill on the superiority and keep trying to make life better for the elves

[PorcelynDoll]

Do you think it won't mean as much if you can redeem him since, (I'm assuming because we have a new protag every game) it won't be the Inquisitor that ultimately deals with him? DA:4's hero won't have had any personal feelings or interactions with him so I'm interested to see how it's handled. Just to be clear the majority of my characters want him dead, I choose attack him option on my dwarf lol, but I am curious.

[Boost32]

what what,when he killed Mythal? He took willingly her power by Mythal concession,which is vastly different,from what you said.
Mythal wasn't killed by Solas,at best you can say that Flemeth was

Lol at willingly.

[Andromelek]

what what,when he killed Mythal? He took willingly her power by Mythal concession,which is vastly different,from what you said.
Mythal wasn't killed by Solas,at best you can say that Flemeth was

Kill someone by surprise does not count as willingly.