482 réponses à ce sujet

[Dabrikishaw]

If the choice to talk Solas down or kill him comes up, I'll flip a coin. If.

 

I don't think Bioware would want to deal with the kind of world removing the Veil would create, so I don't see it happening at all.

[Bigdoser]

Well cole does say he can be redeemed and if you are friends/romance he sounds a lot more conflicted on what he is trying to do. Its going to be interested in what people the inquisitor is going to support because only people who he does not know can face him and stop him. 

[Aren]

 I think he thinks he's making the right decision for the world at large (lifting the veil would help spirits, stop the elves from dying out, return magic to the world, save the people he loves)

Yes but what about demons,the fade have them too.

Did Solas plan include demons invasion?

[Bigdoser]

Yes but what about demons,the fade have them too.

Did Solas plan include demons invasion?

Thing is demons were created because of the perception of spirits from the people of the current world, according to solas I expect there were not many demons back in his day or any at all. 

 

Problem is that we have no idea what effect bringing down the veil will have but one thing I know for sure is doing so will destroy the current world order which is well bad. 

[diaspora2k5]

The guy whose name is Pride in elven wants to destroy the world... again. AW SHUCKS, WHAT SHALL I DO

[SgtSteel91]

Thing is demons were created because of the perception of spirits from the people of the current world, according to solas I expect there were not many demons back in his day or any at all. 

 

Problem is that we have no idea what effect bringing down the veil will have but one for I know for sure doing so will destroy the current world order which is well bad. 

 

I think Imshael and the other Forbidden ones may have been the first Demons in existence.

[Nixou]

Given the back & forth between the pro-redemption and pro-kill-the-mad-dog advocates, I'm pretty sure that Gaider, Weekes & co are making that face right now:

 

 

***

 

a spirit of Valor thought it'd be downright dandy to have a duel to the death with a novice mage in the middle of their Harrowing

 

 

A novice who happened to be a freak with enough raw power to go toe to toe with Mythal and Urthemiel: I'm.... not going to feel sorry for the mage Warden.

 

***

 

No argument here. But there's hints that with the veil up, the world itself may be dying. The elven race certainly is.

 

 

 

The Elvhen culture is already dead. Pure blooded Elves are probably going extinct in the long run, but as a result of interbreeding with humans. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually learn that all human mages are actually elven blooded: there's probably tens of millions of people with Elvhen ancestors alive through Thedas who'll most probably end up as collateral if Solas succeeds. So who cares about maintaining the purity of an ethnicity which probably is at most a handful of generations away from bottlenecking itself into an unsustainable inbreeding depression?

[Andromelek]

Given that he shows some despise towards Dalish, I assume he only wants to benefit the Ancient Elves, that sounds really stupid:

"Abelas, buddy, look, I've destroyed the world so you and your remaining fellow survivors can live in peace, by the way, I released the false gods and I have plans to deal with them, like if Andruil and Anaris would be powerless puppies that I defeated by my own."

[diaspora2k5]

"What Corypheus Solas seeks to restore, no longer exists."

[Andromelek]

"What Corypheus Solas seeks to restore, no longer exists."

Even Corypheus never truly wanted to destroy the world, he was an awful tactician, but at least he had some ideas of how achieve his goal without screwing everyone.

[Vit246]

Even Corypheus never truly wanted to destroy the world, he was an awful tactician, but at least he had some ideas of how achieve his goal without screwing everyone.

 

Wha....? Elaborate.

[Bigdoser]

Wha....? Elaborate.

 

^

 

Yeah I think you are going to have to explain that one to me Andromelek. 

[Aren]

Lol at willingly.

 

Kill someone by surprise does not count as willingly.

lol on both,Flemeth was aware that Solas was coming,and she was aware that he would have killed her as well she was prepared no surprise,and no he haven't steal her power,Mythal give it to him her powers.

or do you truly believe that Mythal do not want to help the elves?

In her own way for centuries Mythal was awakening dangerous beasts for her own purposes and was using Flemeth

they act in different way but their goal is similar.

[Andromelek]

^
 
Yeah I think you are going to have to explain that one to me Andromelek.

He wanted to restore the Imperium, his original plan was enter to the city again and become a God (likely would unleash another mess but that was not his intend) when his main plan was screwed, he managed to control Mages/Templars, spread chaos in Orlais and gain a demon army through the Wardens, it was stated that Lucius wanted to go further than Corypheus as well.

[Abyss108]

Solas achieved the Breach, and the Breach is a world-destroying crime. One whose aftermath (just the demons even) is felt for months or years afterwards.

 

That whole bad future of 'Hushed Whispers' in which demons overrun the land killing everyone? That wasn't Corypheus's villainous plan: that was Solas's intention.

 

Solas wanted to stop the Breach because he didn't get his orb and the anchor so it wouldn't work for him, not because the Breach was against his desires.

 

No, Solas specifically said that world was an abomination and should never happen. That's not what he wants. What he wants is equally bad for the people of this world, but that wasn't it. 

[themageguy]

Calling it right now. His plan blows up in his face and he ends up freeing the elven gods.

Dalish, beware. Andruil's calling a hunting season on your asses.

So that's why Sera doesn't like the dalish?

Id really want to see a meeting between Fenris and Solas.

[Korva]

Yeah it does make sense I mean the man leaks approval by just asking questions. I think when he first meets you he is actually relieved that he has found someone that actually "Listens" to him. Plus his line when you agree that spirits are people as well after his explanation you can hear the small shock in his voice and he noted he never expected to find someone who would think the same. 

 

There is something grotequely hypocritical in him railing about mortals' prejudice against spirits when to him, said mortals are non-people that can be wiped out as fully acceptable "collateral damage" in his master plan. It doesn't make him wrong about spirits, and I still appreciate the new perspective I learned from him, but ... every moment with and every word from him are now bitterly tainted by knowing just what he thinks about this world and those within it. IMO that, not his loneliness or self-pity, is the tragedy in the whole mess that is Solas. He was a hero once, a protector and savior of the abused. He does have knowledge worth learning. He does have insights worth listening to. But his horrendous attitudes mean that he isn't just shooting himself in the foot when trying to get his "message" heard, he's blowing both legs right off and blasting a crater halfway to the core of the planet. All the faults that he blames others for having, he has in himself. (And I think that at least sometimes, he's self-aware and honest enough to realize it. i.e. the way he first explodes at post-Revelations Blackwall and later apologizes to him for that.) In a way, he is a coward taking the easy way out -- and in doing so, becoming very much like what he once fought against.
 

Honestly that conversation in skyhold in your room where he tells you he respects you greatly considering majority of your race act in a typical fashion. (which they do most of the time *looks at the Qunari in the trespasser DLC*)

 

I really dislike that scene, because I loathe this kind of ... is "exceptionalism" the right word for such an attitude? It's dangerous and never, ever a true compliment. As I said before, it didn't make me feel "honored" or "special" in any way, it made me furious.

[Cz-99]

 

Just replace those names with Solas and co. and it fits perfectly.

 

And hopefully, like Reznov, we can solve our problem(s) with said 'people.'

 

Spoiler

 

tl;dr: When it comes to elves...

[Dean_the_Young]

Calling it right now. His plan blows up in his face and he ends up freeing the elven gods.

 

Dalish, beware. Andruil's calling a hunting season on your asses. 

 

Oh, I'll give you one better. Not only will his plan free the elven gods...

 

...but he'll discover that a few millenia of elven collective displacement have fundamentally changed the Fade, so that now it makes someone other than the elves super-special-awesome. Humans? Qunari? Take your pick.

[Dean_the_Young]

The reason the breach was a problem was that Cory was missing the anchor and thus couldn't fully control the orb. The Inquisitor was shown to be able to use the anchor in order to physically enter the Fade without calling down a demonic invasion.

 

Corypheus was never meant to receive the anchor or control the orb- he was supposed to die in the explosion that caused the Breach.

 

The Inquisitor entered the Fade physically once the demonic invasion already began. The Anchor isn't the issue- it's the Breach, which was the sundering of the Veil that would have unraveled it had it not been stopped, and we know that removing the Veil was Solas's intention, and that having Corypheus trigger the explosion was his plan.

 

 

 

I guess the problem I'm having is, why try to stop Cory at all if what he wanted was exactly what happened? The sense that I got was that tearing down the veil the "right" way would cause unspecified chaos (Solas says the world would "burn") but not create any demons. Because Solas was always so horrified at how the veil tears were turning innocent spirits into demons.

 

 

Because Corypheus needing to be stopped was not what he wanted. The issue wasn't 'the apocalypse'- it was 'the apocalypse that benefits someone else.' Corypheus was supposed to die, Solas was supposed to regain his orb powers, and Solas intended to use the anchor to move into the Fade and wait it out.

 

Instead Corypheus survived, Solas lost his orb-derived god powers, and the anchor went to someone else. If the Fade unraveled now, Solas wouldn't have been able to pull off his plans and complete his ambitions, which are more than just the removal of the Fade.

 

Solas being horrified at turning innocent spirits into demons is no different than Solas being horrified at the suffering of innocent mundanes. It doesn't mean he wouldn't do it anyway- this man, and it bears repeating, is intending genocide even as he admits that he's inflicting suffering and death on innocents.

 

That's not 'unspecified chaos' in some vague, gentle term: he's expecting people to die when the Fade and Real world merge. Why do you think that is, considering what we've already seen what happens where the veil thins or is broken?

 

 

 

I mean, it doesn't really make it any better, but I still don't think a demonic invasion was in the cards for Solas.

 

 

Solas is merging the Fade and the Real World. The Fade is already filled with beings that we would consider demons, the confusion and chaos of the merging is what was driving spirits mad, and the chaos that causes suffering and death of so many mortals was inevitably going to be reflected in the Fade as it always has- by drawing and fueling demons.

 

The demonic invasion is the inevitable consequence of the merger.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I suppose I have a decent memory and I am sure some of you here do too.

 

Remember back in the old post DAO days, where everyone hated Loghain Mac Tir for doing the crap he did ? Yeah I remember that time quite well.

 

Remember how many of Loghain's haters were converted and sympathized with him when The Stolen Throne came out ? Yeah I remember that well too.

 

Remember how quite a few people are okay with sparing the Architect ? I remember those moments.

 

Remember how these same people decided that they hate the Architect and want to kill him after The Calling ? I remember those too.

 

With regards to Solas, I will say this...

 

I am willing to bet good money on the fact that if someone at Bioware published a well written novel detailing the time of ancient Elvhenan, what was it like, what happened, what were the stakes and why Solas had to create the Veil and there was little alternative...Many would either start loving Solas back or sympathize with him instead of blindly hating him now...

 

Humans really do have short memories and fickle stances, don't we ?

 

I am not saying I support the Wolfgod Egghead, I don't but blindly hating him without any context is ridiculous. As for his plans to tear down the Veil, I think it will backfire like it always has. He will inadvertently cause Titans to wake up, cause Great Dragons to regain sentience, release some or all of the Evanuris by accident on top of killing lots of people...But blind hatred of him is foolish...Tis' better to try to talk him out of it or to try and depower him or try and lock him away or send him somewhere else using Time Magic...

 

Killing Solas will not stop the problem or solve anything. For one, Solas can be as powerful as the Evanuris and the Evanuris do not die so easily. Neither will Solas. I will not be surprised if he has Horcrux backup like Mythal ready. Secondly, Solas' plans can always be carried out by someone else, preferably another Ancient Elf who is his agent. Yes his agent might not have Solas' power but as we saw from In Your Heart Shall Burn, you do not really need a single individual with the power. You can draw from multiple power sources to obtain sufficient power for your goals. To effectively stop Solas, you will have to kill him and every ancient Elf that exists in Thedas. That amounts to genocide and makes us no different than he is.

 

In the movie Justice League The Flashpoint Paradox, Nora's Allen who is Flash's mother says this in the beginning of the animated movie:- "...when I was a little girl, Grandma taught me a prayer: Accept the things you cannot change. Have the courage to change the things you can... and have the wisdom to know the difference."

 

That is the lesson Solas needs to ultimately learn. He cannot change anything and everything without serious consequences, especially unexpected consequences. That is not accomplished by killing him.

[Korva]

I think it's less that he thinks "modern people are broken and thus must be actively purged", and more "this whole world is fucked and I owe it to the people who loved and trusted me to un-fuck it." Viewing people as not real is a coping mechanism so he can get on with what he feels he has to do.

 

Not actively purged, no, but definitely "broken" and other and less. It strikes me as part coping mechanism and part sincere and horrible conviction. The latter does waver as he gets to know people in the Inquisition, but it never goes away ... if anything, it likely only has grown stronger again since he left us and as a result is no longer challenged by having "non-people" around and close to him.

 

One reason why I love Cole's spirit path so much is that, to me, it's a direct challenge to our tendency towards equating "like me" with "superior/good/right" and "not like me" with "inferior/bad/wrong". I loathe that tendency, I know how much damage it does (though I'm not quite stupid enough to think I can't fall for it regardless), and I truly was grateful and glad that Solas helped pave the way to embracing that challenge. Still am, because it is worth it and Cole is worth it, though the hideous truth about Solas taints this too. It's a fitting irony that the Inquisitor acts a similar challenge to Solas, except that it doesn't stick because he ends up running away from it. Instead of being the "mentor" who brings that important lesson, he is the one who needs to learn it the most.

 

... I'm currently quite sleep-deprived and forgot half of the point I wanted to make by bringing this up. Bleh.

 

And I'm with you on wanting to kick his ass. My emotions are some weird combination of affection, sadness, and FURY. Which is why I'm loving the setup at the end of the DLC. The Inquisitor putting themselves in opposition to Solas's goals and ideals, while still thinking of him as a friend, and being determined to stop him. It's a solution that perfectly turns my mixed feelings into a plan of action.

 

I'm confused by the setup. Mutilating the player character feels like a massive "up yours" and a justification for that entirely arbitrary "one game per protagonist" rule. We're supposed to stop Solas, and maybe he kind-of-sort-of wants us to, but we also can't because of that arbitrary rule and because he allegedly knows us too well. So where is this going? I think it's clear that for many people, the resolution of Solas' arc (which I guess will mark the end of the series) could only ever be handled in a satisfying manner by the Inquisitor -- not as a potentially wholly OOC cameo with no player input beyond a BS choice like whom to leave behind in the Fade, but as the player character. It would feel "wrong" to do it with any other character, even someone who maybe has also earned Solas' reluctant respect for their actions and attitudes, because that original bond between Solas and the Inquisitor (be it friendship or rage or any mix of emotion) is basically Chekov's Gun now.

[Boost32]

(snip)

"Blindly hating Solas"? Are you serious?
The guy gave his Orb to Corypheus and it caused a lot of deaths, if he had succeded he would kill even more people , joined the Inquisition only to recover his Orb, not to repair the damage he had done and now he wants to continue his mad plan that will only bring more pain and suffering. There is no blind hate, his actions and motivations are clear as crystal.

You can like him, but it doesn't mean he is not a lunatic mass murderer who needs to be stopped and pay for his crimes.

And about killing all ancient elves, they started the war on the base of killing everyone else, if they are wipped out, the blame ia on them.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

And about killing all ancient elves, they started the war on the base basis of killing everyone else, if they are wipped wiped out, the blame ia it on them.

 

I just had to correct those spelling errors.

 

Ancient Elves as a collective did not start a war to kill everyone else. There is no evidence of this anywhere. All we know is the Evanuris wage war against each other and that they waged war against the Titans. Not all ancient Elves.

 

The premise...

 

Ancient Elves started a war on the basis of killing everyone else and if they are all wiped out they should have only themselves to blame = Orlesians started a war to conquer Ferelden and so if all the Orlesians were wiped out they should have only themselves to blame = Kirkwall Chantry members started a conflict with the Qunari so if all the members of the Kirkwall Chantry were wiped out they have only themselves to blame.

[Andromelek]

I don't think it's fair compare Solas to Loghain, Loghain was fighting for a more real cause, he left Cailan to die because the dude was a deluded that would throw the army on a grave in the name of glory, his actions later were wrong but trying to fund an army to stand the Civil War and the Darkspawn, the worst thing he did was try to execute all the Wardens because that would make impossible kill the Archdemon, but the dude didn't knew that only a Warden could kill him and even was unaware that there was indeed an active Archdemon.

In the other hand we have Solas, the creation of the Veil can be justified because the Evanuirs were nasty bastards that would destroy the world, thus, screwing the elves and seemingly the Titans and Dragons paid the price too. Now the dude has decided that he cares for nothing but for his own people, even when they are long gone and the means to possibly achieve such goal require fall as deep as the other Evanuirs and ultimately unleash those morons again.