167 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

The Circles will be back anyway. Its clear they want to make everything the same.

It sounds like you haven't actually tried that scenario, so I will just wait for confirmation.

[iheartbob]

I had shadowy Leliana as Divine on my first run through and I can confirm Vivienne does indeed still get elected as First Enchanter of the new college. And there's a rumored civil war amongst the mages brewing.

[PrinceofTime]

Hahah, wow. Well done Bioware, in end the choices dont mean diddly squat.

[darthnick427]

Meh, I picked Vivienne as Divine anyway. Sounds fine to me. I can understand why others might be pissed but it only justifies my Divine choice.

[Dabrikishaw]

It's Councilor Udina situation all over again.

 

I don't even know why they let us choose in the firsrt place if they're gonna do this.

I can't disagree here. I may not like Udina but that all-Human council still sounded interesting.

 

Leliana is still the best outcome for Divine regardless of the shafting. She restores the Canticle of Shartan and opens the priesthood to all races and sexes. No other Divine does this. What's more, Cassandra will only be part of the Exalted Council if Leliana is Divine. She leaves the Council and the Chantry if Vivienne is a part of it.

Well thank god for that at least. Shartan was long due his proper credit in my opinion. Also, males can be priests now.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Well thank god for that at least. Shartan was long due his proper credit in my opinion. Also, males can be priests now.

 

It gets better. Here is a post from Leliana's thread:

 

 

Well I replayed the DLC with her as the (soft)Divine and was pretty funny as she plays the exact same role as if she's not Divine but is wearing her robes instead of the nutcracker outfit . It seemed odd that she was

Spoiler

back in her spymaster outfit for the credit stinger though.

I do like how they gave her romance some resolution as I thought the base game had some head scratching moments in that regard.

 

As far as I can tell the Warden romance parts are these. (I assume the later part of the Divine epilogue is because of the romance but don't know )

 

 

 

 

 

If the Hero of Ferelden romances her, he or she returns from their quests, continues their romance with her and best of all, Leliana subsequently allow all Chantry members to have romantic relationship by using Andraste as an example and by stating that love is Maker's greatest gift.

 

Vivienne does not do that. Cassandra definitely does not do this even if you romance her.

 

Leliana is the best Divine, period.
 

[thesuperdarkone2]

It gets better. Here is a post from Leliana's thread:

 

 

 

If the Hero of Ferelden romances her, he or she returns from their quests, continues their romance with her and best of all, Leliana subsequently allow all Chantry members to have romantic relationship by using Andraste as an example and by stating that love is Maker's greatest gift.

 

Vivienne does not do that. Cassandra definitely does not do this even if you romance her.

 

Leliana is the best Divine, period.
 

Yep. I get to be with Cass and Leliana does all these reforms. Still sucks that scumbag Viv undoes all my good work. She's officially on my ****-list

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yep. I get to be with Cass and Leliana does all these reforms. Still sucks that scumbag Viv undoes all my good work. She's officially on my ****-list

 

Which is why she is the worst choice for Divine. With her as Divine, all I can foresee is more people joining Dread Wolf's cause. With Leliana as Divine, she makes the Chant of Light and Andrastianism extremely appealing to pretty much everybody. Especially Elves given that Shartan is restored to his former glory within the Chant of Light, It would make less Elves want to join the Dread Wolf.

 

The more you look at it, the more you will see that Leliana is the best Divine and that Vivienne is a Machiavellian b**ch. At least she treated us to some spa.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Which is why she is the worst choice for Divine. With her as Divine, all I can foresee is more people joining Dread Wolf's cause. With Leliana as Divine, she makes the Chant of Light and Andrastianism extremely appealing to pretty much everybody. Especially Elves given that Shartan is restored to his former glory within the Chant of Light, It would make less Elves want to join the Dread Wolf.

 

The more you look at it, the more you will see that Leliana is the best Divine and that Vivienne is a Machiavellian b**ch. At least she treated us to some spa.

Don't forget how in Divine Leliana's ending, she's perfectly willing to start a war just because she doesn't have power. **** YOU Vivienne. Sera at least matures in this DLC. Viv continues to be the same power-hungry elitist I've always hated.

[Fredward]

Mmmm, so why does !FREEDOM FOR EVERYONE! Leliana want the College destroyed?

[Sifr]

It's funny.

 

When Fiona decided she wanted the Circle to seek independence from the Chantry, a decision that split the Circle in two and pitted mages against mages, I seem to recall that Vivienne felt it was a completely idiotic and selfish decision...

 

But when Vivienne decides she wants to restore the Circle (with herself at the top) and seek independence from the College, an action that split the Southern Mages in two and pitted mages against mages.... suddenly, she thinks it's the most splendid and selfless idea in the entire world!

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

It's funny.

 

When Fiona decided she wanted the Circle to seek independence from the Chantry, a decision that split the Circle in two and pitted mages against mages, I seem to recall that Vivienne felt it was a completely idiotic and selfish decision...

 

But when Vivienne decides she wants to restore the Circle (with herself at the top) and seek independence from the College, an action that split the Southern Mages in two and pitted mages against mages.... suddenly, she thinks it's the most splendid and selfless idea in the entire world!

 

 

Vivienne has always ever been "pro-more power for herself" kind of person.She is a Machiavellian. Understand this and you understand Vivienne as well as her intentions.

[Ynqve]

It's funny.

 

When Fiona decided she wanted the Circle to seek independence from the Chantry, a decision that split the Circle in two and pitted mages against mages, I seem to recall that Vivienne felt it was a completely idiotic and selfish decision...

 

But when Vivienne decides she wants to restore the Circle (with herself at the top) and seek independence from the College, an action that split the Southern Mages in two and pitted mages against mages.... suddenly, she thinks it's the most splendid and selfless idea in the entire world!

 

 

It's almost as if she's written to be a selfish and power hungry social climber who doesn't care if other people get hurt by her actions, as long as she gets out on top.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Divine Leliana has Vivienne literally remake the Circle to take advantage of the Inquisition's removal in order to start a mage civil war to destroy the College

 

WTF! Why the hell would she do that??

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It's funny.

 

When Fiona decided she wanted the Circle to seek independence from the Chantry, a decision that split the Circle in two and pitted mages against mages, I seem to recall that Vivienne felt it was a completely idiotic and selfish decision...

 

But when Vivienne decides she wants to restore the Circle (with herself at the top) and seek independence from the College, an action that split the Southern Mages in two and pitted mages against mages.... suddenly, she thinks it's the most splendid and selfless idea in the entire world!

 

 

Maybe because Vivienne's plan was not remotely as suicidal as Fiona's?

 

Just a thought...   

[Steelcan]

So I was right, it won't matter what Divine you choose and the Status Quo is going to be preserved.

[Sifr]

Vivienne has always ever been "pro-more power for herself" kind of person.She is a Machiavellian. Understand this and you understand Vivienne as well as her intentions.

 

Except that Vivienne forgets the other key point raised by Machievelli in The Prince;

 

"Still, a prince should make himself feared in such a way that if he does not gain love, he at any rate avoids hatred"

 

Which ironically is what she's advocating, she wants to restore the Circle and go back to the system where mages were feared, hated and reviled by the people of Thedas, who consider them better locked away for their own good and that of others.

 

Furthermore, this shows the flaw in her leadership style and why she was never able to actually seem to rally the loyalists into a cohesive faction during the Mage-Templar war, as we saw they instead were either scattered to the wind or ended up de facto part of the Rebellion.

 

While ruling through fear works in the short term and is useful when playing The Game, this does not breed any sense of loyalty towards her from people over the long term, as people know that Vivienne will discard anyone who does not suit her goals or help her gain power.

 

Maybe because Vivienne's plan was not remotely as suicidal as Fiona's?

 

Just a thought...   

 

Except that in the Divine Leliana ending with the College, the mages in southern Thedas are actually being accepted.

 

Vivienne's new civil war risks ending up putting the common people of Thedas in the crossfire and earning their ire, since it'd only prove that mages cannot control themselves without supervision, reinforcing the position of those who'd rather things return to the previous flawed system.

 

That is suicidal, because Vivienne is slapping aside the first olive branch that mages have been extended in a long time, simply because she wants a little bit more power and prestige than she already had.

 

Fiona, regardless of whether you agree with her, was at least was thinking of other people, while Vivienne is only out for herself here.

[Steelcan]

Except that Vivienne forgets the other key point raised by Machievelli in The Prince;

 

"Still, a prince should make himself feared in such a way that if he does not gain love, he at any rate avoids hatred"

 

Which ironically is what she's advocating, she wants to restore the Circle and go back to the system where mages were feared, hated and reviled by the people of Thedas, who consider them better locked away for their own good and that of others.

 

Furthermore, this shows the flaw in her leadership style and why she was never able to actually seem to rally the loyalists into a cohesive faction during the Mage-Templar war, as we saw they instead were either scattered to the wind or ended up de facto part of the Rebellion.

 

While ruling through fear works in the short term and is useful when playing The Game, this does not breed any sense of loyalty towards her from people over the long term, as people know that Vivienne will discard anyone who does not suit her goals or help her gain power.

 

 

Except that in the Divine Leliana ending with the College, the mages in southern Thedas are actually being accepted.

 

I think she'd disagree and would say that mages were more feared when they sought to shed themselves of the Circles and I think you'd be hardpressed to argue against that.  What Vivienne proposes is a return to a situation that the vast majority of common folk found acceptable, until Leliana's utterly ridiculous fanservice epilogue came about, and was then somewhat retconned in this DLC.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Except that in the Divine Leliana ending with the College, the mages in southern Thedas are actually being accepted.

 

Divine Leliana's ridiculous ending has nothing to do with Fiona throwing her charges into an unwinnable war.

 

It is only by dumb-luck (an awakened Tevinter magister darkspawn waking up and destroying the side that is fighting her while the Inquisitor stupidly decides to walk into an obvious trap) that the mages might survive it at all.

If Leliana's reforms were so great, why has she now decided to rebuild the Circle? I am a Circle proponent and fail to understand it.

 

Vivienne's new civil war risks ending up putting the common people of Thedas in the crossfire and earning their ire, since it'd only prove that mages cannot control themselves without supervision, reinforcing the position of those who'd rather things return to the previous flawed system.
 
That is suicidal, because Vivienne is slapping aside the first olive branch that mages have been extended in a long time, simply because she wants a little bit more power and prestige than she already had.

 

Check your facts; Vivienne does not create civil-war.

Viv's epilogue says that the College and Circle coexist with minimal conflict, if barely.
 

Fiona, regardless of whether you agree with her, was at least was thinking of other people

 
Thinking of how to get them killed, maybe. The Templars pinned them to the wall and an atrocity against Tranquil under her watch (or, as is more likely, she was not thinking of anything/anyone but "FREEDAHM!!!").

[Sifr]

I think she'd disagree and would say that mages were more feared when they sought to shed themselves of the Circles and I think you'd be hardpressed to argue against that.  What Vivienne proposes is a return to a situation that the vast majority of common folk found acceptable, until Leliana's utterly ridiculous fanservice epilogue came about, and was then somewhat retconned in this DLC.

 

Except that from what we're told about it, the new College of Enchanters is basically just the Circle with a massive overhaul, where those who attend are there of their own free will and not kept under house arrest at the whim of ever-watchful and ever-present jailors.

 

Part of what sparked the rebellion was the frustration felt by the mages that they were being forced to be in the Circle and a complete lack of choice, which they now have. That the College even exists in the first place speaks to that many mages given the choice, would like to remain with their follow mages to learn and study magic, but they'd rather do so on their own terms rather than those imposed on them.

 

Choice matters.

 

Having mages able to actually interact with regular people and show they are not monsters to be feared, will go a long way to allying a lot of the prejudice that they face. This will also remove the stigma of magic, something that as we saw in both Redcliffe with Connor and at Chateau D'onterre, can lead to disaster when someone is ashamed of a magical child and attempts to hide them, leaving them with little to no training to keep their power in check.

 

Frankly, Leliana's epilogue isn't ridiculous fanservice, it's common sense about how to try to integrate mages and regular people into normal society, so they can better avoid these kinds of problems and friction between the two in the future.

 

As Divine, Leliana promotes acceptance, Cassandra promotes tolerance, whereas Vivienne just promotes fear.

 

Check your facts; Vivienne does not create civil-war.

Viv's epilogue says that the College and Circle coexist with minimal conflict, if barely.

 

By helping to form the Circle in opposition to the College, Vivienne is causing a civil war in the making. The slides say that while there's minimal conflict for the time being, both sides are vying for power... a struggle that would not exist if the Circle remained dissolved.

[Patchwork]

WTF! Why the hell would she do that??

 

It doesn't make sense for Leliana at all but BW are determined to have the Circles logic be damned. 

[Kulyok]

I really wish we hadn an option to assassinate Vivienne in the game. She's bad news for free mages, clearly - and has enough influence to be a problem.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It doesn't make sense for Leliana at all but BW are determined to have the Circles logic be damned. 

 

Sad but very true. Vivienne allowing the College, because Inquisition, was similarly WTF-worthy. This Inquisition did not even recruit the mages, much less see the College formed. 

 

 

I really wish we hadn an option to assassinate Vivienne in the game. She's bad news for free mages, clearly - and has enough influence to be a problem.

 

lulz, as if a rank upstart could assassinate her. Vivienne is a seasoned Game player. She holds off worse every day.

[Kulyok]

We could hire Marquis of Serault to kill her, I guess. He's good at the Game and he has enough skill to make it an accident, like poisoning that rebel Chantry sister. Or Morrigan - I bet she'd be delighted. And, of course, there're always Crows and the Inquisitor herself.

 

But seriously, Vivienne was too blandly written to be a player of the Game, at any level. To me, she's a cardboard character wearing funny hats and saying "darling" in every other phrase. I just feel the designers put her into the game to have a voice for conservative mages and to annoy people.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

By helping to form the Circle in opposition to the College, Vivienne is causing a civil war in the making. The slides say that while there's minimal conflict for the time being, both sides are vying for power... a struggle that would not exist if the Circle remained dissolved.

 

What does that say about your golden-girl Leliana?

 

She does not let the Circle remain dissolved, either.