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(trespasser spoilers)Welp, guess the "Best Divine" arguments have just been ended...


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#51
Sifr

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What does that say about your golden-girl Leliana?

 

She does not let the Circle remain dissolved, either.

 

Are you suggesting that Vivienne's selfishness is somehow Leliana's fault?

 

Leliana's whole policy on the mages if Divine is acceptance and not having the Chantry dictate terms to them, instead letting them make their own decisions and respecting their choices. She offered to dissolve the Circle because the rebel mages wanted it to be dissolved, so it was. When Vivienne's faction wanted to reform it, that was their choice to make and she similarly respected it, even if she does not agree with it.


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#52
Pilchowski

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It doesn't make sense for Leliana at all but BW are determined to have the Circles logic be damned. 

This shouldn't be surprising, look at the mage ending from DA:O when you ask to free the Circle. Did a whole of nothing, despite the original ending saying otherwise.



#53
Amne YA

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well people  here hating on Vivi  , she represent a faction of mages   that  just want the circle back ,
 if some mages do not want the circle back  other want the circle back .  they  have the right to  do that too .  stop  with your  puched freedom for every one you don't  know what sweet  poeple the best .  



#54
ComedicSociopathy

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Anyone catch how if Vivienne is Divine, Cassandra will quickly become disgusted by her for perverting the intent of the Chant, eventually leaving the exalted council? I just thought that was funny since she seems to disagree some of what Leliana does but still ends up respecting her  even though her views on magic are similar to Vivienne's.

 

Just an observation...


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#55
Dean_the_Young

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...because they all literally end exactly the same way.

 

Divine Leliana has Vivienne literally remake the Circle to take advantage of the Inquisition's removal in order to start a mage civil war to destroy the College

 

Divine Cass has the mage civil war which her ending kind of implied

 

Divine Vivienne straight up allows the College to form anyway as thanks for helping the Inquisition. Retcons ahoy!

 

 

Guess we shouldn't be surprised that that situation is exactly the same. Now the argument is basically who you think looks best in the outfit.

 

Honestly, only the Vivienne outcome surprises me- and that only because the College is openly allowed.

 

Lelaiana could disband the Circles in terms of Chantry support for them, but she couldn't change the fact that many mages outright support them. If she gave the mages freedom to associate as they would, Circle organization was naturally going to reform- between mages who wanted them, and mundanes who also wanted them.

 

Vivienne is the more surprising one, since her approach to rebellion was a core part of her epilogue slides. I had expected that the College would be an underground movement.


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#56
MerchantGOL

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Tresspasser just further confirmed mages can't be FN trusted.



#57
Bayonet Hipshot

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Anyone catch how if Vivienne is Divine, Cassandra will quickly become disgusted by her for perverting the intent of the Chant, eventually leaving the exalted council? I just thought that was funny since she seems to disagree some of what Leliana does but still ends up respecting her  even though her views on magic are similar to Vivienne's.

 

Just an observation...

 

That alone should be an indicator of how bad Vivienne can become. Cassandra, at her highest levels of disapprovals with the Inquisitor, only drinks away her problems. She does not leave the Inquisition.

 

This is Cassandra. The strong woman who is all about "Restoring odah !" & if she left, you know some bad crap happened.

 

The fact that Cassandra walked away from the Council when Vivienne is the Divine should tell you a lot about how Vivienne is like. In the beginning of Inquisition, she stated that she left the Seeker Order after she saw what they were doing.

 

Point is, Vivienne is not a good leader.
 


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#58
Dean_the_Young

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It's funny.

 

When Fiona decided she wanted the Circle to seek independence from the Chantry, a decision that split the Circle in two and pitted mages against mages, I seem to recall that Vivienne felt it was a completely idiotic and selfish decision...

 

But when Vivienne decides she wants to restore the Circle (with herself at the top) and seek independence from the College, an action that split the Southern Mages in two and pitted mages against mages.... suddenly, she thinks it's the most splendid and selfless idea in the entire world!

 

<_<

 

It's almost like you're ignoring the other part of why Vivienne thought it was an idiotic and selfish decision.

 

Something... something about views on magic? Or the timing? Or how they went about dealing with mages who dissented?

 

Nah, can't be. Ignore all other reasonings or contexts, hypocrite ahoy!


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#59
Dean_the_Young

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Leliana's whole policy on the mages if Divine is acceptance and not having the Chantry dictate terms to them, instead letting them make their own decisions and respecting their choices. She offered to dissolve the Circle because the rebel mages wanted it to be dissolved, so it was. When Vivienne's faction wanted to reform it, that was their choice to make and she similarly respected it, even if she does not agree with it.

 

This is actually why I'm not surprised Lelianna is faced with a mage-on-mage conflict. Bloody-murder Leliana, perhaps, but then that might be a reflection of her limitation rather than her character.

 

It's still the Game. Vivienne, and other like-minded pro-Circlers, are well established within it. But the fact that many Mages disagree with her and think the Circle was right was well-known in advance. Them playing the game to reverse her 'reforms' are, well, expected.



#60
Dean_the_Young

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That alone should be an indicator of how bad Vivienne can become. Cassandra, at her highest levels of disapprovals with the Inquisitor, only drinks away her problems. She does not leave the Inquisition.

 

This is Cassandra. The strong woman who is all about "Restoring odah !" & if she left, you know some bad crap happened.

 

The fact that Cassandra walked away from the Council when Vivienne is the Divine should tell you a lot about how Vivienne is like. In the beginning of Inquisition, she stated that she left the Seeker Order after she saw what they were doing.

 

Point is, Vivienne is not a good leader.
 

 

If the qualification for 'good leader' is 'Cassandra is on your advisory board,' sure. Others might find that a reach- especially if you don't ignore the differences.

 

Cassandra wouldn't walk away from the Inquisition because Corypheus was still a threat to the entire world- or that's what she claims in the base game. There's no equivalent threat compelling or needing common cause with Vivienne. The world was likely to end if Corypheus wasn't stopped, so she stayed. The world isn't particularly more likely to end if she leaves Vivienne. So she leaves.

 

She gets jaded with the lack of idealism of a role she believes should have a fair deal of idealism. That's a few steps away from what a 'good leader' means by many different measures.

 


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#61
Nixou

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It's Councilor Udina situation all over again.

 

I don't even know why they let us choose in the firsrt place if they're gonna do this.

 

 

What I for one do not understand is how, given the medium's inherent limitations, people are still surprised to see the story being streamlined as it progresses.

 

***

 

If the Hero of Ferelden romances her, he or she returns from their quests, continues their romance with her

 

 

Wait... WHAT?

They sent the surviving HoF outside of Thedas for perfectly understandable reasons (as his/her presence would have messed Inquisition's narrative), and now they bring him/her BACK?

Was it that hard to have Leliana say "S/He's still busy looking for a way to purge the taint from his/her bloodstream"? Now they won't be able to even mention the damned White Chantry without renewed cries of "Where's the Warden?" with "Why isn't the Warden helping with the quest against Solas, s/he still has both his/her arms!" as an added bonus

 

Now I'm more convinced than ever: they need to write the Warden Commander of Ferelden back into the story, and if s/he happens to be the Hero of Ferelden, drop a wolf-shaped anvil on his/her head and be done with the character for good



#62
Qun00

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It gets better. Here is a post from Leliana's thread:





If the Hero of Ferelden romances her, he or she returns from their quests, continues their romance with her and best of all, Leliana subsequently allow all Chantry members to have romantic relationship by using Andraste as an example and by stating that love is Maker's greatest gift.


I understand that the Morrigan romance already got its share in the main game, but is there a teeny weeny side note in the DLC?

#63
Dean_the_Young

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Except that Vivienne forgets the other key point raised by Machievelli in The Prince;

 

"Still, a prince should make himself feared in such a way that if he does not gain love, he at any rate avoids hatred"

 

Which ironically is what she's advocating, she wants to restore the Circle and go back to the system where mages were feared, hated and reviled by the people of Thedas, who consider them better locked away for their own good and that of others.

 

We could raise up that Vivienne has never read Machievelli, and so can not be condemned for failing to understand it, because Machievelli does not exist in the Dragon Age universe.

 

We could also point out that Machievelli's line, as you quote it, is poorly applicable because the nature of political power is that some is always going to dislike what you do. The 'avoiding hatred' line is not a prescription for taking unpopular positions... or rather, if it is, it's a poor one because the only leaders who avoiding taking hated positions are the poor leaders who don't take any position worth noting.

 

But far more relevantly is the weird misunderstanding that Vivienne's desire is (was) the re-establishment of the Circles, then reforms, because she does consider it in everyone's good interests.

 

 

 

Furthermore, this shows the flaw in her leadership style and why she was never able to actually seem to rally the loyalists into a cohesive faction during the Mage-Templar war, as we saw they instead were either scattered to the wind or ended up de facto part of the Rebellion.

 

 

 

?

 

The loyalist mages sat out the war and the rebellion. Which was rather the point.

 

The bigger question/issue is why there weren't enough loyalist mages left to help the Inquisition close the breach, but that's something Bioware never really thought about because they needed the 'our solution has to be in Redcliffe' plot. It takes, what, a dozen mages to support the Inquisitor's mark? And the Inquisition's own mages, and those who fled and went underground, or the loyalists couldn't amount to that?

 

 

 

While ruling through fear works in the short term and is useful when playing The Game, this does not breed any sense of loyalty towards her from people over the long term, as people know that Vivienne will discard anyone who does not suit her goals or help her gain power.

 

 

Unlike, say, Bloody Murder Leliana, or 'I quit jobs that don't agree with me when the glitter rubs off' Cassandra?

 

Hey, if you can claim that Vivienne discards anyone, why not smear those two the same way? At least they have examples to point towards: still waiting for the list of people that Vivienne has discarded or betrayed.

 

It's fairly clear that you don't like Vivienne. It's far less so why you expect most, or even many, people in Thedas to hold the share view.

 

 

 

Except that in the Divine Leliana ending with the College, the mages in southern Thedas are actually being accepted.

 

 

For the moment.

 

As alluring as that moment can be, the honeymoon period always has a shelf-life: see world-saving Inquisition in Trespasser. There was also always going to be roll-back- especially when Leliana's moment of accomplishment doesn't actually address the concerns of her opponents.

 

 

Vivienne's new civil war risks ending up putting the common people of Thedas in the crossfire and earning their ire, since it'd only prove that mages cannot control themselves without supervision, reinforcing the position of those who'd rather things return to the previous flawed system.

 

 

In other words, vindicating Vivienne's warnings and views? It's almost like she'd win even if she lost or something. If she wins, she can re-assert the control and oversight she thinks is proper. If she loses, the victors either assert control and oversight to prevent it- thus furthering her agenda- or they don't, and it occurs again.

 

People have argued about the inevitable futility of the Circle system, because it would always breed resentment and attempts to rebel. Now free-mage advocates are going to have to address the inverse: the ever-present forces and actors who will roll-back what many see as dangerous freedoms and lack of accountability. If you give people freedom to choose what they want, you're always going to have issue of people who don't want what you want.

 

 

 

 

Not, mind you, that we know how this Circle-vs-College conflict shapes... or if it even merits being called a civil war in the first place. It's two separate, distinct organizations: only by forcing them under a single identity could it be considered a civil war in the first place, and to date we've only heard enough to get a sense of, hey, the Game is still being played.

 

We really haven't heard, or seen, anything to suggest that it's All Vivienne's Fault. Anymore than the Mage-Templar conflict was All -Insert Faction's- Fault.

 

 

 

That is suicidal, because Vivienne is slapping aside the first olive branch that mages have been extended in a long time, simply because she wants a little bit more power and prestige than she already had.

 

This seems strangely at odds with the facts. The mages were offered a series of olive branches for some time even before the Inquisition: the Ferelden Crown, Divine Justinia, Redcliffe, even the Inquisition. Even without Vivienne and just Fiona, many of these olive branches were burned- and many of them by the mage side. Unless we're considering a handful of years 'a long time', the last decade for Thedas has had a number of mage-mundane developments that included better efforts.

 

On the other hand, this 'olive branch' of the College wouldn't really be an olive branch to anyone who doesn't agree with its premise. The College isn't 'peace between mundanes and mages', anymore than the Circles were. The College is 'the form of mage freedom and (lack of) oversight that some find desirable.'

 

If you do not find the College desirable, it's extension is not an olive branch. It is the problem.
 

 

 

Fiona, regardless of whether you agree with her, was at least was thinking of other people, while Vivienne is only out for herself here.

 

If we ignore Vivienne's stated, and regularly supported, motivations that involve other people, sure.

 

And if we ignore all the people that Fiona wasn't particularly thinking about, or only thought about when it supported her.


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#64
Bayonet Hipshot

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I wish Fen'Harel could have given Vivienne a demonstration, a taste of real magic and petrified her with the rest of the Qunari with his eyes. The horned hat makes her look like a Qunari anyway.


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#65
Qun00

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Do we need another endless Vivienne/ Circles debate? We've had two threads already.
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#66
Dean_the_Young

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Except that from what we're told about it, the new College of Enchanters is basically just the Circle with a massive overhaul, where those who attend are there of their own free will and not kept under house arrest at the whim of ever-watchful and ever-present jailors.

 

Part of what sparked the rebellion was the frustration felt by the mages that they were being forced to be in the Circle and a complete lack of choice, which they now have. That the College even exists in the first place speaks to that many mages given the choice, would like to remain with their follow mages to learn and study magic, but they'd rather do so on their own terms rather than those imposed on them.

 

 

Choice matters.

 

Part of what also sparked the rebellion was mage supremacists who wouldn't accept any sort of oversight or restrictions despite very real malevolence they were able and willing to inflict on mundandes- and the College-without-restrictions doesn't addresss that.

 

'Learn magic on their own terms' is fine for the mages who actually want that- it's not so fine for the mages, or anyone else, who disagrees. Fortunately, those who disagree have a choice on how to oppose things they view are wrong.

 

 

 

 

Having mages able to actually interact with regular people and show they are not monsters to be feared, will go a long way to allying a lot of the prejudice that they face. This will also remove the stigma of magic, something that as we saw in both Redcliffe with Connor and at Chateau D'onterre, can lead to disaster when someone is ashamed of a magical child and attempts to hide them, leaving them with little to no training to keep their power in check.

 

 

Alternatively, having mages interact with regular people can prove they are powers who are deserving as fear, because 'shame of a magical child' isn't what motivated Connor to accidentally kill a major settlement. 'Fear for a family member' was, and the College doesn't address that- because the College can not, and does not, enforce its lessons.

 

Because that's rather the point of 'learning on your own terms.' If your own terms are 'no', then either the College either imposes rules and restrictions, or doesn't.

 

 

Frankly, Leliana's epilogue isn't ridiculous fanservice, it's common sense about how to try to integrate mages and regular people into normal society, so they can better avoid these kinds of problems and friction between the two in the future.

 

Alternatively, it's the common-sense prelude for the common sense of why people with inherently volatile powers aren't quite the same as everyone else.

 

Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it, and all that. Thinking you can better avoid these kinds of problems, and stumbling right back into older problems, are two different things.

 

Classic security-freedom tension. People forget why security states were created, dismantle the security aparatus when they view it as the problem, and pat themselves on the back until circumstances give them cause to remember.
 

 

As Divine, Leliana promotes acceptance, Cassandra promotes tolerance, whereas Vivienne just promotes fear.

 

 

If we're going to just give arbitrary labels that fit our views, why not the other side?

 

Leliana promotes recklessness, Cassandra promotes caution, Vivienne just promotes responsibility?

 

 

By helping to form the Circle in opposition to the College, Vivienne is causing a civil war in the making. The slides say that while there's minimal conflict for the time being, both sides are vying for power... a struggle that would not exist if the Circle remained dissolved.

 

 

 

It also would not exist if the Circle remained in place and the College was not created. Your argument works both ways.

 

But really, if Vivienne is able to create a civil war so soon just by creating a rival with minimal conflict, then that's a rather damning indictment of the durability of the College system. A system's resiliance isn't going to be considered on the basis of how well it worked if no one opposed it or tried to undermine it. A system's resiliance is going to depend on how it handles opposition, both internal, and external.

 

If the mere existence of an alternative to the College system, of a rival who thinks the College is wrong and is credible enough to gather support both within and without the mage community, is enough to promote a crisis that is a 'civil war in the making...' that suggests a rather fragile system, and not one suited for dealing with malcontents that inevitably exist.

 

The Circle system endured for a millenia. It did so despite the existence of alternative mage systems (Tevinter, tribals), it did so despite the inherent sins of the system, it did so despite creeping corruption and outside agitators, it did so despite multiple world catastrophes. It survived despite deliberate attempts to outright tear it down, from within and without and even above. How much longer it will survive without it's chief patron of the Chantry is unclear, but evidentally it has enough support and successes that it can do so for some time more.

 

If the College can barely endure for a decade because some mage-politician disagrees with their direction? If the lack of absolute conformity to a system threatens its stability because of people who make the wrong choice it was meant to provide? If the mere existence of a Circle as an alternative creates a existential threat?

 

Perhaps it's not such a solid idea after all.


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#67
Bayonet Hipshot

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Vivienne is capable of creating a Circle that causes conflict not because the Circle was an attractive idea to mages, but because the Circle was able to pull more political power and play the Game.

 

The epilogue even says so where the College of Enchanters have more mages but Circle has more political power. So the Circle was not recreated due to the inherent validity of its idea. What's more the Circle endured because there was Templars and Seekers,not because the idea was valid. Without them, the Circles will fall and give way to Tevinter-style Circles or College of Enchanters. What's more, the Circle continued to exist because the Chantry needed someone who give them magical support to fight multiple Exalted Marches. The Qunari wars are won because of Circle Mages.

 

Point is, the Circle as an idea is false and it was only upheld because it has enforcers and overlords that ensured it so. Not because it was a good idea. Its just like marriage. If you look at the real world, you will see the marriage rates dropping worldwide. That is happening because society has advanced to a point where marriage is unnecessary. Marriage was only preserved in the past due to religious institutions as well as lack of technologies such as birth control and economic circumstances. Once these were gone, marriage started to go the way of the dodo. The same is true of the Circle. Once the Templars and the Seekers are gone and once the Chantry is in no need for it, it falls away...Unless if you have a Machiavellian mage trying to ensure it to be otherwise.

 

It was created and Leliana had to allow it because Vivienne went the political route and use the Game to make it that way. With Leliana making radical reforms such as allowing romances for Chantry members, restoring Shartan's canticle and opening priesthood to all race and gender, she had to sacrifice something else.

 

That something else is letting Vivienne form her Circle. Contrary to what many believe or what many a making it out to be, the Circle is not  a popular thing with Southern mages because they do not have the numbers to rival the College of Enchanters. They merely have political power and Game prowess, which does not translate to inherent superiority in magical power or magical ability at all. It simply means they can gain more favors from nobles.

 

If there was ever a war, the College of Enchanters under Divine Leliana's rule and an Inquisitor who freed the mages will be victorious. Not only does the College of Enchanters have the sheer numbers, they also will have the backing of the Inquisitor who willingly sided with them and the backing of Leliana, who would probably pick the College over the Circle.

 

If I was part of the College of Enchanters, I would simply wait for Vivienne to die. According to the Nightmare at Adamant, she is quite old now and does not have long to live. She is not an Elf so possible immortality is not an issue. After she dies, the College will be able to get the majority of the members of the new Circle back.


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#68
riverbanks

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Ya'll fighting about Vivienne versus Leliana, but the real gold of this choice is in making Divine Cassandra wear funny pope hats, punch the Chantry into shape and make Blessed & Holy [disgusted noises] at everyone.

 

(meanwhile Vivienne just busies herself wearing pretty dresses to fancy parties, and Leliana retires to play lute and breed nugs, fitting ends for everyone!)


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#69
d1ta

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Thanks for the spoilers :)

I guess I'm gonna have to go with Leliana (despite how I loathe loosing any of my advisors. Which why I used to always put Cassandra on the sunburst throne)

It's her acknowledging the Canticle of Shartan that won me over. And playing mainly as an elf, naturally that means a lot to me.

Although I disagree of her disbanding the templars completely
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#70
Boost32

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It sounds like you haven't actually tried that scenario, so I will just wait for confirmation.

It sounds like you are trying to delude yourself.

I didn't have Vivienne in my game at all, but there's a slide with a Vivienne-like figure that says that a Circle of Magi arose (on itself, I presume, it wasn't said that Divine Victoria aided them in any way) and began rivaling the College. They're in uneasy coexistence or something like that.



#71
Steelcan

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Its annoying that Dean argues so much better than I do >.>

#72
TK514

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In hindsight, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that BW used this DLC to prune a few branches.  Still, it's a little disappointing that this is the branch they chose to hack off, given how important the mage freedom vs normal security has been to the franchise so far, and how little they really devoted to its resolution in Inquisition.

 

Maybe they're in a rut, and realize that mages and elves, and elf mages, are all they really know how to write for this setting.



#73
Bayonet Hipshot

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When Cassandra calls someone a tyrant, I think it is generally wise to believe her.


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#74
MisterJB

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Me before reading the thread: Oh boy, darkone is going to tell us what the best ending is.

 

But it's actually a valid thread.

 

If that is all there is to it, I am disappointed. I had Cassandra as Divine and Allied Templars.

There were no mention of Templars, only of mages within the Inquisition forming a college that stood against the Circle.

 

If it's the same regardless of Divine and Templar/Mages Allied/Conscripted, that is a big let down.

 

I guess they just really want to move on from this issue. As was hinted by Cassandra's letter, even the developers think it has been discussed to death.


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#75
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Me before reading the thread: Oh boy, darkone is going to tell us what the best ending is.

 

But it's actually a valid thread.

 

If that is all there is to it, I am disappointed. I had Cassandra as Divine and Allied Templars.

There were no mention of Templars, only of mages within the Inquisition forming a college that stood against the Circle.

 

If it's the same regardless of Divine and Templar/Mages Allied/Conscripted, that is a big let down.

 

I guess they just really want to move on from this issue. As was hinted by Cassandra's letter, even the developers think it has been discussed to death.

 

 

The handling of the mage/templar decision is my only major grievance with the DLC. I don't think there is a single mention of the templars political situation in it and all of the ending slides seems to be written with In Hushed Whispers in mind. 


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