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[Boost32]

The majority of the mages still in the Circles and only few of them went with the College and templars still around, so Vivienne still the best to me.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Are you suggesting that Vivienne's selfishness is somehow Leliana's fault?

 

No, no. I was asking your opinion of Leliana doing the exact same thing as what Vivienne is doing.

 

Because Vivienne allowing the College to prop up, because Inquisition (never mind there was no event where the Inquisition saw the rise of said College, much less supported it), to you is OMG SO BAD and going to start some kind of mage civil-war -- ignore the epilogue saying otherwise, because you know better -- and she is doing it only out of spite -- because, again, you say so, when the epilogue itself says she is doing it out of respect for the Inquisition. Yet Leliana allowing the Circle to prop up next to the College somehow does not carry any of those same risks. And once again your explanation stands contrary to what the epilogue itself says. You say it is out of the goodness of her heart, while the epilogue (trusting that the OP is accurate since I cannot find it myself) says that she is trying to rouse the mages into war.

 

rofl... seriously, stop. Just stop. You are ignoring and changing facts to fit your narrative. Just accept that you are wrong about Vivienne being some cartoon villain and Leliana being some saint that can do no wrong, because you are. Honesty is the best policy.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Its annoying that Dean argues so much better than I do >.>

 

This. I saw it only after I sent my reply. I needn't have bothered.

[PrinceLionheart]

Not to be a smartass, but why do people get surprised at this point? Time and again this has been the trend of importing save files. Letting the Council die in ME1, giving the reaper to Cerberus, performing the ritual with Morrigan, killing Anders. All big "story branching decisions" that ultimately amounted to slight deviations.

 

 

The majority of the mages still in the Circles and only few of them went with the College and templars still around, so Vivienne still the best to me.

 

 

#VivienneWasRight

[Dean_the_Young]

In hindsight, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that BW used this DLC to prune a few branches.  Still, it's a little disappointing that this is the branch they chose to hack off, given how important the mage freedom vs normal security has been to the franchise so far, and how little they really devoted to its resolution in Inquisition.

 

Overall I'm not particularly surprised, or disappointed: just a little skeptical on the particulars. I completely expected pro-Circle mages to rally again, with or without Leliana's support: she can take the Mages out of the Circles, but she can't take the Circles out of the mages who want them. I'm a bit more skeptical about Vivienne's arrangement: I was expecting any College equivalent to be an underground movement, not overt and sanctioned. I still need more context and clarity on Divine Vivienne routes.

 

But as far as the mage delimma itself? I'm actually alright with the change of focus: it seems pretty obvious that now the debate hasn't been buried and forgotten (which, for better or worse, I was concerned about) and more shifted from 'mage vs. mundane' to 'mage vs. mage.' It was easy to cast it as 'mages and Teamplars' as if all mages were united- but the thing was, they weren't. And never were.

 

While I think the set-up is a bit wobbly on the Vivienne route, what we're setting up next is a foreseeable, and appropriate, next step of the expansion of mage freedoms that occured in all DAI endings: having achieved a greater measure of autonomy, what will mages actually do about it? The answers will generally not be as catastrophic as the worst doomsayers predict (I say generally because, hey, Solas), but they doubtless will not be as noble, selfless, or ideal as advocates wished.

 

I suspect that we'll find that when you take people with powers and empower them with politics, they act about as gracefully and admirably as anyone else caught up in politics. Which is to say... not very.

 

Maybe not so good for the nations of Thedas, but plenty of drama fodder to be had.

[Dabrikishaw]

Not to be a smartass, but why do people get surprised at this point? Time and again this has been the trend of importing save files. Letting the Council die in ME1, giving the reaper to Cerberus, performing the ritual with Morrigan, killing Anders. All big "story branching decisions" that ultimately amounted to slight deviations.

I supposed a certain level of hopeful improvement on that front was misguided.

[Ryzaki]

Not to be a smartass, but why do people get surprised at this point? Time and again this has been the trend of importing save files. Letting the Council die in ME1, giving the reaper to Cerberus, performing the ritual with Morrigan, killing Anders. All big "story branching decisions" that ultimately amounted to slight deviations.

 

 

 

 

#VivienneWasRight

 

I can't help but be an optimist.

[SgtSteel91]

Templars do get addressed but they're lumped in with Cullen if you have him kick his lyrium habit.

 

If you dissolve the Inquisition Cullen forms a sort of rehab center for ex-Templars recovering from lyrium addiction.

 

If you have the Inquisition serve the Divine he advises on Chantry policies regarding the treatment of Templars who want to leave or struggle with lyrium addiction.

[Boost32]

Or he become a insane beggar.

[dragonflight288]

Wow, that's kind of... awful. Seriously, why does Bioware go on and on about choices and consequences if it never going to amount to anything?

 

I'm guessing to avoid the mistakes of the Mass Effect trilogy. 

 

Too many choices lead to too many variations that have to be handled moving the story forward. 

 

It's easier to deal with dialogue and codex options that discuss the slightly divergent paths that have roughly the same result that wildly different outcomes while moving the game series forward. 

 

But I think the OP is mistaken. 

 

I just beat the game, and actually Leliana who is Divine, didn't restart the Circle. A bunch of loyalists did and voted Vivienne as Grand Enchanter and the Circle and College exist in a sort of forced peace that Leliana (softened) has to constantly negotiate to keep them from fighting. 

 

I think both end up existing, but what changes is how they end up existing and their relationship with each other. 

 

Leliana continued her relationship with the Hero of Ferelden, who is also married to Queen Anora. Quite a scandal that neither Cassandra or Vivienne would bring. 

[Adanu]

In my epilogue, Leliana doesn't allow Vivienne to form a new circle... Vivienne starts a new one herself with her own connections using fear from the new status quo.

 

So yes, I went from being indifferent to Vivienne to loathing her. She and Sera can go die in a fire for all I care about them now.

[leaguer of one]

Currently, there aren't many Divine Leliana endings up yet. Will see if there are any differences between softened and hardened Divine Leliana.

Shadow Leliana is a puppet master behind the scene using shadow over deplomacy. She does not tell Vivi to make a new circle but Vivi use  the end of the inquistion to scare a good part of the mages  to join he is starting a new circle.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Shadow Leliana is a puppet master behind the scene using shadow over deplomacy. She does not tell Vivi to make a new circle but Vivi use  the end of the inquistion to scare a good part of the mages  to join he is starting a new circle.

 

We should have sent her through the Eluvian to me the Dread Wolf so she too, can be a petrified statue. For all of Sera's flaws, at least she grew as a character after 2 years. Vivienne's the same old conniving wench.

[leaguer of one]

We should have sent her through the Eluvian to me the Dread Wolf so she too, can be a petrified statue. For all of Sera's flaws, at least she grew as a character after 2 years. Vivienne's the same old conniving wench.

I don't mind that she did that. I only aligned with the mages to get them to come to me.  I though something like the circle would be made latter but with less regulation.

[Boost32]

We should have sent her through the Eluvian to me the Dread Wolf so she too, can be a petrified statue. For all of Sera's flaws, at least she grew as a character after 2 years. Vivienne's the same old conniving wench.

So you want to kill a woman who didn't commit a crime, but want to save a man responsible for thousands of deaths? That is interesting.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Where is everyone getting that Leliana ordered Vivienne to create circles? My most never said anything like that.

[Adanu]

Where is everyone getting that Leliana ordered Vivienne to create circles? My most never said anything like that.

 

Apparently there's more than one epilogue slide for her... or it might just be a bunch of anger projection.

[Sifr]

Apparently there's more than one epilogue slide for her... or it might just be a bunch of anger projection.

 

The only slide I got for her was Vivienne using her connections to reestablish the Circle on her own.

 

If there is indeed a slide that has Leliana give her the go ahead first, then it would at least come more across as a fair compromise for former Circle Mages (likely Aequitarians or Loyalists) who feel the College would ignore their more moderate or traditionalist views.

 

Otherwise, it just comes across as Vivienne working to create a rival faction, for reasons that mostly involve augmenting her own political power.

 

But giving her the benefit of the doubt (since I honestly don't want to dislike Vivienne), she might have been genuine when she spoke of her desire to safeguard the institution of the Circle and maintain it's status as a safe place for mages in Southern Thedas. That restoring the Circle happens to ensure she retains a degree of power and prestige, was just a benefit (and incentive) for doing so.

[SgtSteel91]

But giving her the benefit of the doubt (since I honestly don't want to dislike Vivienne), she might have been genuine when she spoke of her desire to safeguard the institution of the Circle and maintain it's status as a safe place for mages in Southern Thedas. That restoring the Circle happens to ensure she retains a degree of power and prestige, was just a benefit (and incentive) for doing so.

 

I agree with this. After seeing a lot of her scenes and banters in the game I believe she really cares about the Mages and amasses power so that she can use it to protect them in a world that fears them (but she's cynical/realist enough that she believes using that power to change society into not fearing Mages is a pipe dream). So it would make sense that she would step in and create a new institution that could not only act as a competing institution to test the resolve and feasibility of the College but also be a safety net if the College does fail and the Mages need protection. Especially if the College's greatest ally, the Inquisition, disbands or transitions into the Divine's peace-keepers.

 

I have a new personal headcanon now that, in the same vein Divine Vivienne allows the College to form because of her respect for the Inquisitor or doesn't try to tear down the College in Cassandra is Divine for the same reason, she respects the Inquisitor enough that she won't be gunning to tear down the College with her new Circle if Leliana is the Divine.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The only slide I got for her was Vivienne using her connections to reestablish the Circle on her own.

 

If there is indeed a slide that has Leliana give her the go ahead first, then it would at least come more across as a fair compromise for former Circle Mages (likely Aequitarians or Loyalists) who feel the College would ignore their more moderate or traditionalist views.

 

Otherwise, it just comes across as Vivienne working to create a rival faction, for reasons that mostly involve augmenting her own political power.

 

But giving her the benefit of the doubt (since I honestly don't want to dislike Vivienne), she might have been genuine when she spoke of her desire to safeguard the institution of the Circle and maintain it's status as a safe place for mages in Southern Thedas. That restoring the Circle happens to ensure she retains a degree of power and prestige, was just a benefit (and incentive) for doing so.

Except Vivienne grudgingly admits that the College is a good place to train mentions. Plus, since there are no mentions of any rampant abominations or blood mages, I'd leaning toward the College was working and Vivienne only created the Circle because she's a power hungry shrew.

[Sifr]

I agree with this. After seeing a lot of her scenes and banters in the game I believe she really cares about the Mages and amasses power so that she can use it to protect them in a world that fears them (but she's cynical/realist enough that she believes using that power to change society into not fearing Mages is a pipe dream). So it would make sense that she would step in and create a new institution that could not only act as a competing institution to test the resolve and feasibility of the College but also be a safety net if the College does fail and the Mages need protection. Especially if the College's greatest ally, the Inquisition, disbands or transitions into the Divine's peace-keepers.

 

I agree, I think she does care about mage welfare and approaches it from a realist point of view, rather than optimistically hoping for the best.

 

It's just very hard to work her out when it comes to whether or not she's being genuine or playing the Game, because she so very rarely ever drops the facade of the Iron Lady. The only time that we see the mask drop for certain is when it comes to Bastien's death, but the rest of the time she has her walls up and it makes it very hard to read her, her feelings and her motives.

 

It also doesn't help that we're never really given a glimpse into the more stable Circle she champions, when the only Circle's we've been privy to haven't really given us any reason to trust the Templars, nor see the Circle as something worth keeping;

 

Kinloch Hold: The Mage Warden didn't leave on the best terms and later ended up getting overrun with demons during a failed rebellion.

The Gallows: Meredith operated with draconian rules for both mage and templars alike and ended in a rebellion that tore the city apart city.

White Spire: Lambert's authoritarian crackdowns alienated both Templar and Mages alike, leading to the very rebellion he wanted to stop.

 

She's right that they might have been the exceptions rather than the rule (there are about 19 Circles, supposedly), but as players we've sadly never seen the cultural edifice of learning that was Montsimmard, nor the extremely dull Ostwick Circle that Trevelyan can mention, so our experience of them has always been negative.

[Reznore57]

I picked Cass as Divine so everything goes well.I freed the mages so I already had the annoying College of Enchanters and then regular Circles.

I was worried Fiona would trouble Cassandra and cause a new war...but now Cassandra is keeping Vivienne in check while the echanters pee their pants in terror.

 

All is well.

[Mr.House]

Not to be a smartass, but why do people get surprised at this point? Time and again this has been the trend of importing save files. Letting the Council die in ME1, giving the reaper to Cerberus, performing the ritual with Morrigan, killing Anders. All big "story branching decisions" that ultimately amounted to slight deviations.

 

 

 

 

#VivienneWasRight

Because they give us something like Bulls betrayal, a real consequence and varied endings for companions and advisers, but then screw over the entire Divine ending.

 

This is stupid beyond belief and my only massive issue with the dlc.

[Mr.House]

I picked Cass as Divine so everything goes well.I freed the mages so I already had the annoying College of Enchanters and then regular Circles.

I was worried Fiona would trouble Cassandra and cause a new war...but now Cassandra is keeping Vivienne in check while the echanters pee their pants in terror.

 

All is well.

The problem is people who got the Templar WHERE screwed over. In the base game, we got different slides for them, but now all of a sudden we not only not get them or any mention, we now always get this collage. It's bad enough Bioware tired to too hard to force Hushed Whispers down my throat in the base game, now my own path was ignored.

[Sifr]

The problem is people who got the Templar WHERE screwed over. In the base game, we got different slides for them, but now all of a sudden we not only not get them or any mention, we now always get this collage. It's bad enough Bioware tired to too hard to force Hushed Whispers down my throat in the base game, now my own path was ignored.

 

Yeah, but even if you went pro-Templar in the base game, that doesn't mean that the mage situation didn't need to be addressed at some point? The surviving Templars apparently still exist in some capacity in the pro-Mage state to get absorbed into either the Inquisition or Seekers, so it makes sense that in the pro-Templar worldstate, the Circle and College might have come into existence under both Cass or Leliana as Divine.

 

Although if you went Templar and made Vivienne DIvine and we still get the College slide, I admit, that does seem like a bit of a cheat on Bioware's part, since Vivienne is the Divine least willing to compromise when it comes to giving mages any alternative to the Circle.