167 réponses à ce sujet

[Nixou]

Either way, hopefully we learn more next game, especially if it tackles what happened to the Wardens at Weishaupt.

 

 

I'd rather they kept the Grey Wardens uninvolved in the next game: there's already enough plot threads hanging to let that one rest for another game. The Warden Commander of Ferelden's absence was a problem in Inquisition because the game heavily involved both Ferelden and the Grey Wardens: it wasn't a problem in the Kirkwall-centric DA2 because its events happened on the other side of the Waking Sea: when Grey Wardens were involved in this game, they came from the Free Marches' branch and not Ferelden, and the one event that could have sprang the Fereldan Commander into taking action personally (his/her protégé Anders blowing up the Chantry) happened during the game's final stretch.

 

Long story short: so long as the Grey Warden's internecine strife and the "Cure-the-Taint" threads are not directly involved in the next game's plot, they should lay dormant for another game.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Apparently Divine Vivienne has to deal with the Silver Shield AKA Templars who refuse to serve her because they hate mages.

 

https://youtu.be/6jydMBhWPEg?t=2m49s

 

 

Did anyone else get this or does that always happen?

[z-r0]

I find the endings vastly different (well, not that Circle part, of course). Electing Cass as the new Divine seems to be the only choice I can "live" with. Leliana brings trouble with those terrible reforms she so anxiously wants to happen. Viv is just typical Viv, power hungry as ever and even with that not able to have every mage under her leach at Circles. And even with Cass you'll have to live with mages pretty much freed (I mean: not under Seeker/Templar control), but appart from that everything else seems fine. I understand Bioware couldn't make an ending where most of the mages (those who opposed templars in general) were made tranquil (I know, most of you hate me for even suggesting such), so saddly we have to live with these choices. And actually on the other hand I find it more interesting to have an ending where most of the things differ from the situation where you would want them to be.

 

I do understand however that some of you are rather angry to Bioware for merging some parts of endings concerning the Circles. I suppose they "need" the possibility of conflict around that area for future.

 

But even with this amount of merging and canonizing they risk a terrible amount of alternative dialog in the next game perhaps.

[Sifr]

I don't mind them being unspoken, but I'd have preferred Varric to narrate them. And they go by too fast to both read and appreciate the artwork. I think they're aware of that now, though.

 

Yeah, the ending slides went by a little too fast unless you are able to speak-read, I only really noticed the artwork on my second playthrough. I've seen several let's plays of Trespasser where people tried to narrate them, only for the game to skip to the next slide before they were even halfway through a single sentence, which goes to show how quickly it rushed through them.

[Kakistos_]

Wat? In my epilogue, Lelianna didn't do anything with Vivienne.

 

Vivienne reformed her own group of idiots but it was in DIRECT competition with the college of enchanters that Fiona made. Lelianna had nothing to do with that, Vivienne just did it cause she's a B.

Yes, I saw nothing to suggest that Vivienne's Circle was connected to Leliana in any way. I imagine that Leliana would be opposed to Vivienne trying to control the now successfully free Mages. As would an peace keeping Inquisition and Mage allied Inquisitor.

[leaguer of one]

I find the endings vastly different (well, not that Circle part, of course). Electing Cass as the new Divine seems to be the only choice I can "live" with. Leliana brings trouble with those terrible reforms she so anxiously wants to happen. Viv is just typical Viv, power hungry as ever and even with that not able to have every mage under her leach at Circles. And even with Cass you'll have to live with mages pretty much freed (I mean: not under Seeker/Templar control), but appart from that everything else seems fine. I understand Bioware couldn't make an ending where most of the mages (those who opposed templars in general) were made tranquil (I know, most of you hate me for even suggesting such), so saddly we have to live with these choices. And actually on the other hand I find it more interesting to have an ending where most of the things differ from the situation where you would want them to be.

 

I do understand however that some of you are rather angry to Bioware for merging some parts of endings concerning the Circles. I suppose they "need" the possibility of conflict around that area for future.

 

But even with this amount of merging and canonizing they risk a terrible amount of alternative dialog in the next game perhaps.

Liliana's reforms work and she as the understanding to how to support them.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Liliana's reforms work and she as the understanding to how to support them.

Not to mention the inquisition can become her personal peacekeeping force

[Bleachrude]

Leliana's reforms quite frankly, SHOULDN'T work and I'm not talking only about the magic issue.. At the least, there should be a split within the church a la whenever major Reforms happens IRL (with the traditionalist remaining the majority of the Chantry and Leliana forming her own new "chantry"). Even Luther and Calvin weren't as radicalized as leliana is....

 

Leliana is chaning a culture that for almost 1000 years has had SINGLE, FEMALE, HUMAN, NON-MAGE as the spiritual leader of the community. We now can have a married, male elven mage as the leader of the community and this doesn't split the congregation? Especially given that there wasn't much outcry against the female-only, single aspect of the clergy and the human aspect didn't seem to be a big issue among the community either.

 

This is what people mean when they say Dragon age has become disneyified since even in our world, female priests causes big uproars.

[SgtSteel91]

My Leliana ending has her reforms creating a fracture in Andrastians, where a rebellion springs up across Southern Thedas to depose her and bring back the racist "Old" Chantry and some attempts on her life.

 

I felt good keeping the Inquisition as her honor guard, to say the least (although if you harden her she stops the rebellion from the inside).

[Amne YA]

My Leliana ending has her reforms creating a fracture in Andrastians, where a rebellion springs up across Southern Thedas to depose her and bring back the racist "Old" Chantry and some attempts on her life.

 

I felt good keeping the Inquisition as her honor guard, to say the least (although if you harden her she stops the rebellion from the inside).

that doasn't  change anything . even the inquistion  can split  to 2 oposite  faction  , remember you arn't in charge anymore 

[leaguer of one]

Leliana's reforms quite frankly, SHOULDN'T work and I'm not talking only about the magic issue.. At the least, there should be a split within the church a la whenever major Reforms happens IRL (with the traditionalist remaining the majority of the Chantry and Leliana forming her own new "chantry"). Even Luther and Calvin weren't as radicalized as leliana is....

 

Leliana is chaning a culture that for almost 1000 years has had SINGLE, FEMALE, HUMAN, NON-MAGE as the spiritual leader of the community. We now can have a married, male elven mage as the leader of the community and this doesn't split the congregation? Especially given that there wasn't much outcry against the female-only, single aspect of the clergy and the human aspect didn't seem to be a big issue among the community either.

 

This is what people mean when they say Dragon age has become disneyified since even in our world, female priests causes big uproars.

 But they do...Why? Because she's Harden and she has a group of spys and assassin at her beck and call as well as political know how to deal with other contesters.

 

Sorry it needs to happen.

[leaguer of one]

My Leliana ending has her reforms creating a fracture in Andrastians, where a rebellion springs up across Southern Thedas to depose her and bring back the racist "Old" Chantry and some attempts on her life.

 

 

If you harden her that goes away....

[Ryzaki]

It should only work for hardened Leliana and only because she's killing so many people the rest are damned terrified of her.

 

And all the changes she makes are quickly reverted once she dies. That'd be realistic.

[Sifr]

I think the mathematician's answer to this debate is that the best Divine in Thedas probably lives in Tevinter.

 

[SgtSteel91]

Me personally, if they do kill off Divine Leliana or have her reforms reversed then **** Thedas, it doesn't deserve saving and it's better off is Solas wipes it out.

[Steelcan]

Me personally, if they do kill off Divine Leliana or have her reforms reversed then **** Thedas, it doesn't deserve saving and it's better off is Solas wipes it out.

yes because Maker forbid the quasi medieval setting stay quasi medieval instead of the 21st century with swords

[Bleachrude]

re: Assassins and Spies

 

I'm not talking about JUST the other high ranking members of the Chantry...

 

I'm talking about the actual typical Andrastian who LITERALLY for almost a 1000 years, his village and family have been minstered by a human nonmage single female. (Keep in mind that assuming that Thedas is STILL a medieval continent and that most people can't read, all they know of the Chantry is what has been passed down orally for generations.),

 

Even the idea of a MALE father should be considered a radical change (remember how Leliana reacted in Haven if you bring her to Father Kolgrim? The only place they could even THINK of a male leader of a chantry would be the heretical Tevinters) Even if Leliana has the Inquisition supporting her, I honestly don't see Neverra, the Anderfels or any nation not named Ferelde or Orlais being impressed since quite frankly, the events of Inquisition would've been out of sight and out of mind for them.

 

(Would the Free Marcher city states actually believe that the inquisitor _WAS_ the herald of Andraste? Much less Riivain or the Anderfels?) I'm not referring just to the nobility or the movers and shakers...but say the common people of the Anders - exactly why would the even accept a MARRIED mother if literally nothing in their experience gives a hint to that.

[MrTijger]

Hmm, I've always chosen Cass as Divine and quite deliberately at that, I've also chosen to save the Templars. The reason why should be obvious, mages are inherently dangerous and without the Templars they'll be a menace and Cass is dedicated to changing both the Seekers and Templars to be what they should be and not what they have become.
 

I see no redeeming qualities in choosing Leliana as Divine, personally, or siding with the mages and yes, I did think it through quite considerably. The principles of the Ciricles are sound, the execution and the tranquil option are not, if you have Hakkon and spoken with Meridian you also learn that it used to be different and that they took the easy way out, Cassandra is never ever going to take the easy way out.

[Xilizhra]

Leliana's reforms quite frankly, SHOULDN'T work and I'm not talking only about the magic issue.. At the least, there should be a split within the church a la whenever major Reforms happens IRL (with the traditionalist remaining the majority of the Chantry and Leliana forming her own new "chantry"). Even Luther and Calvin weren't as radicalized as leliana is....

 

Leliana is chaning a culture that for almost 1000 years has had SINGLE, FEMALE, HUMAN, NON-MAGE as the spiritual leader of the community. We now can have a married, male elven mage as the leader of the community and this doesn't split the congregation? Especially given that there wasn't much outcry against the female-only, single aspect of the clergy and the human aspect didn't seem to be a big issue among the community either.

 

This is what people mean when they say Dragon age has become disneyified since even in our world, female priests causes big uproars.

Actually, the only in-depth conversations we have with a revered mother have her blatantly saying that it's all just political bullshit, so it seems likely that, by this point in Thedas' history, there's already a fairly sizable wing of priestesses who would be behind Leliana in her reforms.

 

 

re: Assassins and Spies

 

I'm not talking about JUST the other high ranking members of the Chantry...

 

I'm talking about the actual typical Andrastian who LITERALLY for almost a 1000 years, his village and family have been minstered by a human nonmage single female. (Keep in mind that assuming that Thedas is STILL a medieval continent and that most people can't read, all they know of the Chantry is what has been passed down orally for generations.),

 

Even the idea of a MALE father should be considered a radical change (remember how Leliana reacted in Haven if you bring her to Father Kolgrim? The only place they could even THINK of a male leader of a chantry would be the heretical Tevinters) Even if Leliana has the Inquisition supporting her, I honestly don't see Neverra, the Anderfels or any nation not named Ferelde or Orlais being impressed since quite frankly, the events of Inquisition would've been out of sight and out of mind for them.

 

(Would the Free Marcher city states actually believe that the inquisitor _WAS_ the herald of Andraste? Much less Riivain or the Anderfels?) I'm not referring just to the nobility or the movers and shakers...but say the common people of the Anders - exactly why would the even accept a MARRIED mother if literally nothing in their experience gives a hint to that.

It's not like there's going to be some huge purge of the current clergy. The "typical Andrastian" probably won't need to worry about a revered mother replacement for a while, especially since it'll probably be at least another generation before a significant number of applicants to the position aren't just more human women.

[jtav]

I vastly prefer Cassandra as Divine. The other two seam to be bent mostly on using the office to pursue their pet political agendas. And Leliana reminds me too much of the "Doctrine? Liturgy? Who cares as long as we all love each other" type.

[Xilizhra]

I vastly prefer Cassandra as Divine. The other two seam to be bent mostly on using the office to pursue their pet political agendas. And Leliana reminds me too much of the "Doctrine? Liturgy? Who cares as long as we all love each other" type.

When we have several clerics saying outright that several parts of the doctrine are just political claptrap, I think that we've reached a point where there's no reason to hold to doctrine or liturgy simply because they are doctrine/liturgy. Everything needs to be objectively assessed, and much of this seems to be wanting.

[Lumix19]

Leliana's reforms aren't that drastic. We have dwarves being inducted as brothers already (see Brother Burkel) and men have always had a considerably powerful role in the Chantry (even if it was just high powered clerks) like Chancellor Roderick.

[Korva]

When we have several clerics saying outright that several parts of the doctrine are just political claptrap, I think that we've reached a point where there's no reason to hold to doctrine or liturgy simply because they are doctrine/liturgy. Everything needs to be objectively assessed, and much of this seems to be wanting.

 

But Leliana is never shown to do that. Both in Origins and in Inquisition, her theology has always boiled down to, basically, "what makes me feel good must be right because I want it to be". The world is damn lucky that what makes her feel good is to spread love and acceptance (when she's not killing and mutilating people), but objective analysis this ain't. That is what I can see Cassandra doing, Seeker of Truth that she is.

 

I want to like this character more than I do, but the writers did a really crappy job with Leliana in Inquisition, IMO.

[Xilizhra]

But Leliana is never shown to do that. Both in Origins and in Inquisition, her theology has always boiled down to, basically, "what makes me feel good must be right because I want it to be". The world is damn lucky that what makes her feel good is to spread love and acceptance (when she's not killing and mutilating people), but objective analysis this ain't. That is what I can see Cassandra doing, Seeker of Truth that she is.

 

I want to like this character more than I do, but the writers did a really crappy job with Leliana in Inquisition, IMO.

Cassandra is no more objective than Leliana. Anything and everything based on faith is subjective, and basing something on Chantry doctrine is no more logically salient than following your intuition if it's not based on empirical observation. For instance, I'm fairly sure there's no empirical evidence that men are incapable of being spiritual leaders, or elves, for that matter.

[Mykel54]

As i see it, the issue we have with the tresspasser epilogue is:

 

- Bioware wanted the Circle AND the College to exist on all world states, so they tweaked all divine´s epilogues to fit that in.

 

- The templars´s epilogue was not overwritten by the tresspasser dlc, so we can assume for now it stands (ex. Leliana disbanding the order).

 

This is similar to my issue with viscount Varric and my viscountess hawke. I get that a scenario could be made where my Hawke was disinterested in ruling again so allowed Varric to take over. It isn´t the most logical outcome, but if bioware badly needs to put varric´s butt on the viscount seat - then go ahead. I can make up some headcanon, but it won´t matter because bioware will ovewrite it anyway.

 

The problem is exemplified in Vivienne´s epilogue as divine: why does she allows the college to emerge and compete with the circle? It´s in contradiction with the epilogues shown in the main game. It doesn´t make sense if you look at it straight and expect continuity from one epilogue to the other.

 

The only way for it to fit is to try and make it fit using your headcanon, because the game doesn´t bother elaborating: what if Vivienne is allowing the College to exist in order to spot dissidents, like the libertarian fraternity back in DAO? It´s better to know where the opposition is than having it be underground. She could prefer to have undesirables join this college and marginalize them, sort of like one of those fascist syndicates. The circle would have all the support and funding from the chantry, while the college would serve as a cautionary tale of bad magic practices. I can see Vivienne´s thinking something along these lines and thus allowing those mages who wanted more freedoms (and would "pollute" her circle), start a college of their own so they can be monitored and eventually convince the public that they´re dangerous.