167 réponses à ce sujet

[Nixou]

I get that a scenario could be made where my Hawke was disinterested in ruling again so allowed Varric to take over. It isn´t the most logical outcome, but if bioware badly needs to put varric´s butt on the viscount seat - then go ahead

 

 

I think the Bioware's scenario was "Hawke was absent, so the nobles decided to elect someone else regardless of the Champion's wishes"

 

***

 

The only way for it to fit is to try and make it fit using your headcanon, because the game doesn´t bother elaborating

 

 

Elaborations are unneeded at this point: if and when the series comes back to southern Thedas, the writers will have ample opportunity to depict Vivienne's motivation.

[Bleachrude]

Cassandra is no more objective than Leliana. Anything and everything based on faith is subjective, and basing something on Chantry doctrine is no more logically salient than following your intuition if it's not based on empirical observation. For instance, I'm fairly sure there's no empirical evidence that men are incapable of being spiritual leaders, or elves, for that matter.

 

Your argument is FLAWED since the whole reason Andraste was betrayed WAS because she was married.  The doctrine that chantry mothers had to be single had a clear argument for it and one that even a person who had JUST been introduced to the Chantry a la Origins would understand it. The idea that this was simply political bullshit I find quite frankly impossible to believe.

 

As the previous poster mentions, Leliana seems to ignore doctrine and CENTURIES of traditions simply because she "feels" good about something. 

[Xilizhra]

Your argument is FLAWED since the whole reason Andraste was betrayed WAS because she was married.  The doctrine that chantry mothers had to be single had a clear argument for it and one that even a person who had JUST been introduced to the Chantry a la Origins would understand it. The idea that this was simply political bullshit I find quite frankly impossible to believe.

 

As the previous poster mentions, Leliana seems to ignore doctrine and CENTURIES of traditions simply because she "feels" good about something. 

That's like saying that Christian priests shouldn't have students because Jesus was betrayed by one; it doesn't really logically follow. I also don't ever recall that being used in the games as a reason why Chantry clergy couldn't be married.

[Bleachrude]

You're actually going to use CATHOLICISM as an argument? The same religion that uses "jesus is a single male" and thus our priests must be single, males? That religion is your argument. At least the Chantry actually has a reason for the whole "single" aspect since in both Catholicism and the Chantry believe one can't be devoted equally to both family and church

 

Leliana's ending _IS_ a Disney ending and in a lot of ways it does a big disservice to the setting....as an aside, I think this is why Vivienne doesn't fit so well in DA:I.. She strikes me as a character closer to the AGoT feel of Origins. The Orzammar storyline would've been much clearer cut and Loghain would be out and out an evil dude (a la Howe) and not just one could argue was blinded by their past.

 

This and the Dorian plotline (I'm actually more annoyed by this personally) show that Bioware no longer consider the setting to be medieval in terms of attitude or the fact that people actually are conservative.

 

I mean, the Leliana ending basically means there's no reason why Alistair couldn't have married a non Cousland HoF if you think about it

 

Similarly, I'm still unclear as to how Leliana has any authority in her ending given that she no longer has control over two of the biggest factors when people talked about the Chantry - mages and the templars. If Neverra decides to conscript mages, what exaclt can she do other than say "BAD Neverra". 

[Xilizhra]

You're actually going to use CATHOLICISM as an argument? The same religion that uses "jesus is a single male" and thus our priests must be single, males? That religion is your argument. At least the Chantry actually has a reason for the whole "single" aspect since in both Catholicism and the Chantry believe one can't be devoted equally to both family and church

I said "Christian," not "Catholic;" there are Episcopal priests and the like as well. I'm also still missing a source on the Chantry actually using Andraste's betrayal as an argument.

 

 

Leliana's ending _IS_ a Disney ending and in a lot of ways it does a big disservice to the setting....as an aside, I think this is why Vivienne doesn't fit so well in DA:I.. She strikes me as a character closer to the AGoT feel of Origins. The Orzammar storyline would've been much clearer cut and Loghain would be out and out an evil dude (a la Howe) and not just one could argue was blinded by their past.

Loghain was evil, he was just also redeemable. Also, the equivalent of the Orzammar storyline here is Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, which isn't obviously clear-cut.

 

 

This and the Dorian plotline (I'm actually more annoyed by this personally) show that Bioware no longer consider the setting to be medieval in terms of attitude or the fact that people actually are conservative.

Homosexuality in and of itself has never been considered a moral flaw in DA. Even DAO.

 

 

I mean, the Leliana ending basically means there's no reason why Alistair couldn't have married a non Cousland HoF if you think about it

Poor analogy, since Alistair is having to deal with laws that he can't change for mages, and descendant issues with everyone else. What Alistair can do is turn a city elf into a bann and give the Alienage a place in Fereldan politics.

 

 

Similarly, I'm still unclear as to how Leliana has any authority in her ending given that she no longer has control over two of the biggest factors when people talked about the Chantry - mages and the templars. If Neverra decides to conscript mages, what exaclt can she do other than say "BAD Neverra". 

Aside from the fact that no Divine has any templars initially if you play In Hushed Whispers, there's nothing at all preventing Leliana from just gathering more people to be the Chantry's army if she needs them.

[WardenWade]

In the DLC epilogues I've had--not many yet, but a few--I've always had the Circle come back as well.  I like this, as in DAI it seemed clear that some mages had wanted to stay with the Chantry and never desired rebellion.  If there is a College and a Circle then mages can pursue their training and goals either separately or as part of the Chantry, and neither faction has to speak for all of them.

 

In a mage-supporting playthrough I have gotten Cullen's epilogue, as I imagine many have, where he founds a sanctuary for templars seeking to wean themselves from lyrium, and to provide hospice for those too far gone.  It may be different if you side with the templars but they clearly still exist and are seen as necessary even if the Inquisition sides with the rebel mages, as their healing and comfort are important to the Divine.

[NKnight7]

It does suck, and I'm surprised the Templar path isn't really mentioned in the DLC. Not everyone chose mages, in fact for me I went with both paths evenly in my playthroughts.

[Shienis]

Poor analogy, since Alistair is having to deal with laws that he can't change for mages, and descendant issues with everyone else. 

 

This is a very, very interesting argument. Alistair can't change laws in his country, despite being the highest authority, because that would be against centuries of politics and tradition, but Leliana can change laws of an international religious organisation, just because she's the highest authority, despite her changes being against centuries of politics and tradition. Why it's bad for Alistair and OK for Leliana?

 

Well, the answer is quite simple: "Because Leliana." and unfortunately there's no argument in the world to counter that.

[Xilizhra]

This is a very, very interesting argument. Alistair can't change laws in his country, despite being the highest authority, because that would be against centuries of politics and tradition, but Leliana can change laws of an international religious organisation, just because she's the highest authority, despite her changes being against centuries of politics and tradition. Why it's bad for Alistair and OK for Leliana?

 

Well, the answer is quite simple: "Because Leliana." and unfortunately there's no argument in the world to counter that.

Alistair can't change the Chantry laws about mages and noble titles because those aren't Fereldan law. He can change laws about elves being allowed to become nobles, as that is Fereldan law.

 

I actually think that Alistair being unable to marry a nonhuman nonmage Warden is hackneyed, but the Landsmeet is perfectly fine with having them as an open mistress who either completely eclipses Anora in Alistair's opinion, or is basically his wife in all but name. I think some of Alistair's reluctance is based on Eamon's influence and his desire for pure Theirin blood or whatever.

[Korva]

Cassandra is no more objective than Leliana. Anything and everything based on faith is subjective, and basing something on Chantry doctrine is no more logically salient than following your intuition if it's not based on empirical observation. For instance, I'm fairly sure there's no empirical evidence that men are incapable of being spiritual leaders, or elves, for that matter.

 

While we can't have specific theological talks with them like we can with Mother Giselle, Cass is repeatedly shown to care about the truth, no matter how it makes her feel. Leliana is the opposite, it's always been about happy feelings for her.

 

Aside from the fact that no Divine has any templars initially if you play In Hushed Whispers, there's nothing at all preventing Leliana from just gathering more people to be the Chantry's army if she needs them.

 

Leliana specifically doesn't want an armed Chantry, though. She might change her mind later, of course, if she realized it was absolutely needed.

 

Now, I think some of the reforms from Leliana and Cassandra can work. The Chantry is not as monolithic as we're sometimes lead to believe, and neither is the Chant. The highly political way it was shaped is apparently well-known to at least clerics and scholars, as are the Dissonant Verses despite the fact that they're not supposed to be known. I think one of the biggest problems that a reform-minded new Divine will initially face is the fact that many of the progressive, scholarly, peace-minded ranking members of the clergy probably blew up with the Conclave. Anyone who might have had Justinia's favor was there, at least, unless they decided to decline like Mother Giselle did in order to help the refugees instead. Still, both Leliana and Cassandra can get elected and do all right, so they have support somewhere.

 

As for the female-only priesthood, that always struck me as a bit odd. RL-religions which ban women from becoming priests have sexist doctrines and come from sexist societies in which men have all the power anyway. Andrastianism is not anti-men and Thedas is not matriarchal. Yes, I know, Maferath. But the stories of Andraste also have plenty of positive male figures: Shartan (for all the good it did him later), Hector (who died trying to defend Andraste when she was captured), Havard (who gathered her Ashes and carried them home to Ferelden). Hessarian is the model of the repentant sinner, and his "Sword of Mercy" is an important Chantry symbol. So the all-female clergy feels like hamfisting a reverse-Christanity-aspect more than a trait based on in-world logic.

 

The problem with re-canonizing Shartan and opening the priesthood to elves, on the other hand, is that there's an elf running around all bent on annihilating the whole world. And it looks like quite a few elves are disappearing and potentially trying to join him, despite the fact that they're not the "real elves" he's doing it for. That isn't going to make Thedas a friendlier place for elves.

[SgtSteel91]

The problem with re-canonizing Shartan and opening the priesthood to elves, on the other hand, is that there's an elf running around all bent on annihilating the whole world. And it looks like quite a few elves are disappearing and potentially trying to join him, despite the fact that they're not the "real elves" he's doing it for. That isn't going to make Thedas a friendlier place for elves.

 

I don't see this as a bad thing. Doing things like making the Chantry open to Elves, getting their voice out in the largest religion in Thedas, and showing reverence due to an old Elven Hero while undoing a, frankly, imperialist retcon after their home in the Dales was destroyed is going to make fewer Elves turn to the Qun or Solas since their lives in Andrastrian society is improving or making a real effort to be as accepting as they preach.

[Korva]

Good point. It's just that the Chantry and the Inquisition, especially if not lead by an elf and especially if nobles and rulers oppose the reforms, might have a really hard time convincing the modern elves of their sincerity because of all the erasure and oppression. Supporting the Dread Wolf is like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire, but if you feel reviled by both sides anyway, might as well go down kicking the shins of the side that you have a bigger chip on your shoulder for i.e. the humans. Not all Dalish and not all city elves, of course -- I imagine many are horrified by the truth and want nothing to do with Solas or his plans. But I do fear that the human nations will crack down on the elves even harder regardless. With the Inquisition and its influence and reputation destroyed all but completely, who's going to protect them? The Chantry can only preach and give shelter, not forcibly change minds, and even that depends on Divine Leliana's/Cassandra's ability to get enough the Chantry itself in line behind herm despite internal and external pressures.

[HeatherWind]

What happens if Vivienne wasn't a part of the Inquisition?

 

THIS. This is exactly what I came to find out. Philosophical debates aside, I'd simply like to know if anyone's done a playthrough of Trespasser where Vivienne was never recruited, and what the outcome would be? I'm about to start a new game and am genuinely debating whether it's even worth it to recruit her.

[thesuperdarkone2]

THIS. This is exactly what I came to find out. Philosophical debates aside, I'd simply like to know if anyone's done a playthrough of Trespasser where Vivienne was never recruited, and what the outcome would be? I'm about to start a new game and am genuinely debating whether it's even worth it to recruit her.

Nothing changes as Vivienne still creates the circle regardless of whether she was recruited or not

[Bleachrude]

 

Homosexuality in and of itself has never been considered a moral flaw in DA. Even DAO.

 

 

 

Sorry, my mistake for leaving it unclear...I'm not talking about homosexuality but the fact that Dorian is presented as being in the right with regard to begetting a heir. DA:O presented itself as a medieval world and it followed through with this (only noble cousland can become queen or king - I bet that the cancelled human commoner origin would not have been allowed to marry)

 

The fact that Dorian can blow off something like this (and the fact that Dorian himself doesn't see it as a big deal) is what disappointed me....Can you imagine say any of the nobles from game of thrones for example ignoring their heritage like Dorian does?

 

 

This is a very, very interesting argument. Alistair can't change laws in his country, despite being the highest authority, because that would be against centuries of politics and tradition, but Leliana can change laws of an international religious organisation, just because she's the highest authority, despite her changes being against centuries of politics and tradition. Why it's bad for Alistair and OK for Leliana?

 

Well, the answer is quite simple: "Because Leliana." and unfortunately there's no argument in the world to counter that.

 

*Chuckle*

And it's not to say that alistair was trying to marry some nobody...this was the Hero of Ferelden, the woman that literally killed an archdemon just yesterday.

[Xilizhra]

Sorry, my mistake for leaving it unclear...I'm not talking about homosexuality but the fact that Dorian is presented as being in the right with regard to begetting a heir. DA:O presented itself as a medieval world and it followed through with this (only noble cousland can become queen or king - I bet that the cancelled human commoner origin would not have been allowed to marry)

 

The fact that Dorian can blow off something like this (and the fact that Dorian himself doesn't see it as a big deal) is what disappointed me....Can you imagine say any of the nobles from game of thrones for example ignoring their heritage like Dorian does?

And why in Hell's name would any others of the Inquisition condemn Dorian for not delving further into Tevinter politics?

 

In any case, Dorian does see it as a big deal, which is why he was totally willing to throw away his noble status and slum it in the south.

[Sifr]

This is a very, very interesting argument. Alistair can't change laws in his country, despite being the highest authority, because that would be against centuries of politics and tradition, but Leliana can change laws of an international religious organisation, just because she's the highest authority, despite her changes being against centuries of politics and tradition. Why it's bad for Alistair and OK for Leliana?

 

Well, the answer is quite simple: "Because Leliana." and unfortunately there's no argument in the world to counter that.

 

Because she's the Divine, thus putting her in the unique position of being the only person in Southern Thedas who can change those laws?

 

To use a good example from real world history;

 

Despite being a head of state, Henry VIII of England still required Pople Clement VII's permission when he wished to divorce his wife and remarry, something that was (with exceptions) against the law at the time. When the Pope denied him that request, Henry decided to leave the Catholic Church entirely and found the Church of England with himself in charge, thus giving him the power to change the marriage laws however he wish.

 

A similar scenario plays out between the first two games, where the Mage Warden's boon for the Ferelden Circle to become autonomous is ultimately denied because Divine Beatrix III refused to give the Ferelden monarch permission when they asked. The only difference is that unlike Henry VIII, the Fereldan monarchs didn't decide to push the issue when it was denied them... (mostly because the Circle isn't something you can get your leg over!)

 

[Arlee]

Nothing changes as Vivienne still creates the circle regardless of whether she was recruited or not

 

I would think if she never joined the inquisition and Cass because Divine, Cass wouldn't be able to force Viv to not destroy the college of mages like she can in games where Viv did join up.