51 réponses à ce sujet

[PrinceofTime]

In the Omega DLC the Engineer was able to efficiently/exclusively hack the reactor, which makes sense so you know that's their field of expertise.

 

 

So many times during cut scenes with Biotic fights my Vanguard or Adepts didn't do diddly squat besides look like a moron. Alot of situations could have been dealt with easier if the PC used their Biotic abilities but either they dont do it or another Biotic does it for them. Its even worse when Shepard is fighting against a Biotic and didn't use their own powers to clash with them 

Please Bioware, allow the PC to use their class abilities during the story whenever the situation calls for it, whether you trigger it or not. It can happen all the time or just few times i dont care, i just want my Biotic to be a Biotic outside combat. Its helps immersion.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Youknow]

It's not even just a "it helps with immersion," it helps with gameplay too. That's part of what playing a RPG is about, if your character has abilities, they should be able to use them both in and out of combat. 

 

It might take longer to animate cutscenes at moments, but that's the price you pay when you make a playable character have such variable powers. But the payoff is definitely worth it in the end. 

 

I was an Engineer, so I never even realized that this was an exclusive scene. 

[PrinceofTime]

It's not even just a "it helps with immersion," it helps with gameplay too. That's part of what playing a RPG is about, if your character has abilities, they should be able to use them both in and out of combat. 

 

It might take longer to animate cutscenes at moments, but that's the price you pay when you make a playable character have such variable powers. But the payoff is definitely worth it in the end. 

 

I was an Engineer, so I never even realized that this was an exclusive scene. 

I agree and yeah the interrupt is exclusive to Engineers and its pretty cool.

[ManOfSteel]

I agree. I almost exclusive play as a Soldier, but I think it would be awesome to see biotic or tech classes get some love in cutscenes and story moments. Watching an Adept or Vanguard Shepard hammer on the window with the butt of his/her rifle in an attempt to rescue a student when Jack just shatters it with a biotic shockwave leaves me scratching my head a little.

 

The engineer's unique interrupt was a good step in the right direction.

[BabyPuncher]

This is a terrible idea that would create a heaping load of complications I'm increasingly convinced are simply above the heads of most players.

[Lady Artifice]

It's funny, because I love the idea in theory, but the only time they made it an option in the trilogy I actually didn't take it. I wanted to hear what Petrovski had to say. 

[78stonewobble]

I think, it was a pretty cool thing in omega, but I also think it will be frustrating with players, if only a certain class can solve something "optimally". 

 

It would be cool to have different ways, for the different classes to solve the same problem. Just as examples: 

Vanguard charge in,

Engineer, smart overloading of something in the enviroment...

Infiltrator, allready standing behind the monologuing villain... decloaking...

Soldier, doing an indiana jones vs. sword guy... shot. 

 

You guys can think of better ones... 

 

It will probably take waaay too much work to implement for every single cutscene decision, but it would be nice to have this illustration of the class "mentality" / approach somewhere along the way.

[BabyPuncher]

It would be cool to have different ways, for the different classes to solve the same problem. Just as examples: 

Vanguard charge in,

Engineer, smart overloading of something in the enviroment...

Infiltrator, allready standing behind the monologuing villain... decloaking...

Soldier, doing an indiana jones vs. sword guy... shot.

 

Even that creates some very difficult problems that aren't going to have elegant solutions.
 

[Ahriman]

Yeah, every class acting like a soldier with a pistol annoys me every time. The reason is quite simple though, it's expensive and Bioware thinks it's not worth the gain. Maybe they're right and majority of players won't care or notice, I don't know.

This is a terrible idea that would create a heaping load of complications I'm increasingly convinced are simply above the heads of most players.

Complications are minimal, just a few simple checks. The amount of optional content 5/6 (2/3) of players won't see is critical here.

[BabyPuncher]

The myriad of problems they would create certainly seem to be. I can think of about five or six, off the top of my head? Serious problems, that, as I said, aren't going to have elegant solutions.

[78stonewobble]

Even that creates some very difficult problems that aren't going to have elegant solutions.
 

 

While I'm no game developer, I presume that depends on what approach they take. 

 

It could be as simple as x different animations, dependent on class, for an interrupt or conversation choice... More work, sure... but not really much different from allready providing paragon and renegade interrupts, that the player is free to take or not. 

[Ahriman]

The myriad of problems they would create certainly seem to be. I can think of about five or six, off the top of my head? Serious problems, that, as I said, aren't going to have elegant solutions.

Go on, list them, don't be shy.

[Vapaa]

This is a terrible idea that would create a heaping load of complications I'm increasingly convinced are simply above the heads of most players.

It would create complications but it's not a terrible idea at all.

[BabyPuncher]

#1. The player cannot anticipate story consequences of their class when they choose it at the beginning of the game.

 

#2. Different classes leading to even minor different story outcomes (such as different minor characters surviving or dying) compels players to play classes they don't enjoy to get the story they want.

 

#3. The player's class affecting the story is almost certainly going to necessitate the player's companions classes' affecting the story. This leads to a whole subset of fresh problems as to the player being punished or rewarded for being the 'right' or 'wrong' companions, as well as the composition of the cast.

 

#4. Characterization which would otherwise be the player's choice or available to all classes would likely be restricted to certain classes. Players are again compelled to play a class they may not like to get the personality they actually want. It addition, players are likely to find the 'best' personality as a mix between classes and thus off limits.

 

#5. The active use of class in cutscenes is almost guaranteed to create enormous problems. Again, this can be divided into whole subsets of problems on their own, all of which need to be addressed. The central problem is how can developers possibly script legitimate combat cutscenes when a huge variety of abilities are available to the player character? Other problems include the expectation of class abilities, which I can almost guarantee is going to lead to a decrease, not increase of 'immersion' and a surge in complaints over non-existent 'plot holes,' and the simple problem of thinking up legitimate animations for the more obscure classes such as sentinels. 

 

Yeah. Very, very, very big problems.

[Ahriman]

1. Excuse me? Can they anticipate story consequences when they choose gender? Except the knowledge that PC will speak in female voice.

2. They can add as much story branches as they want or none of them. Example in OP shows that it was just another way to get one of outcomes.

3. They already do. We even hire them in ME2 for their classes.

4. If you want pool cleaner 'personality' you don't choose soldier as your class, that's simple enough for a lot of people. Why would anyone expect engineer ta say anything about his biotic abilities?

5. Some parts of cutscenes are just replaced with proper animations, there's nothing complex about it, not harder than creating any other animation.

[78stonewobble]

#1. The player cannot anticipate story consequences of their class when they choose it at the beginning of the game.

 

#2. Different classes leading to even minor different story outcomes (such as different minor characters surviving or dying) compels players to play classes they don't enjoy to get the story they want.

 

#3. The player's class affecting the story is almost certainly going to necessitate the player's companions classes' affecting the story. This leads to a whole subset of fresh problems as to the player being punished or rewarded for being the 'right' or 'wrong' companions, as well as the composition of the cast.

 

#4. Characterization which would otherwise be the player's choice or available to all classes would likely be restricted to certain classes. Players are again compelled to play a class they may not like to get the personality they actually want. It addition, players are likely to find the 'best' personality as a mix between classes and thus off limits.

 

#5. The active use of class in cutscenes is almost guaranteed to create enormous problems. Again, this can be divided into whole subsets of problems on their own, all of which need to be addressed. The central problem is how can developers possibly script legitimate combat cutscenes when a huge variety of abilities are available to the player character? Other problems include the expectation of class abilities, which I can almost guarantee is going to lead to a decrease, not increase of 'immersion' and a surge in complaints over non-existent 'plot holes,' and the simple problem of thinking up legitimate animations for the more obscure classes such as sentinels. 

 

Yeah. Very, very, very big problems.

 

1. Out goes all conversations (what you see isn't allways what you get) as well and backgrounds (couldn't predict the outcomes of that either). Which clearly makes me1, 2, 3 and a host of other games so impossible that they cannot exist. 

 

2. Did anyone really mention different story outcomes dependent on class? And even if that were true... How is that different from different storyoutcomes, from eg. dialogue choices? Where you might be forced to say something you don't really mean or just because what was said wasn't what you thought it would be. Or the interrupts, which you have no idea about which does what. 

 

3. Whoa, so what youre saying is that it would actually require some thinking as to who to bring? One can only hope... Also the games allready do that, in the form of the various forms of special dialogue. 

 

4. Again... allready happening in the existing games, due to dialogue not being allways predictable. Interrupts being wholly unpredictable. And you being forced to not allways take something you agree with ... for a subjective optimal outcome. 

 

5. Oh please... if anything, that's as much an argument for removing interrupts and dialogue choices alltogether... Since they make it all so complicated with their options.

[BabyPuncher]

1. Excuse me? Can they anticipate story consequences when they choose gender? Except the knowledge that PC will speak in female voice.

2. They can add as much story branches as they want or none of them. Example in OP shows that it was just another way to get one of outcomes.

3. They already do. We even hire them in ME2 for their classes.

4. If you want pool cleaner 'personality' you don't choose soldier as your class, that's simple enough for a lot of people. Why would anyone expect engineer ta say anything about his biotic abilities?

5. Some parts of cutscenes are just replaced with proper animations, there's nothing complex about it, not harder than creating any other animation.

 

1. They can certainly anticipate consequences in romance. Outside of that, gender doesn't cause any differences, does it? There are no characters that live or die because Shepard is a certain gender, nor objectives that are met or failed, nor choices opened or closed.

 

2. Yes, and the correct choice is 'none.' No class impact.

 

3. No, they don't. The only time the class of the companions Shepard brings affects the story is the suicide mission, and it's made very clear which classes are the correct choice.

 

4. No, it's really not 'simple.' Has it possibly crossed your mind that maybe someone wants their character to understand technology, but heavily dislikes playing engineer? Like me, for example? Are they just screwed? Are they stuck with gameplay they don't really like for however many dozen hours to get the story they want? What if a player wants their character to understand both weapons and technology? What sort of dialogue are vanguards and sentinels supposed to get?

 

5. Why don't you attempt to ddress my points instead of saying "No, this is actually easy."

[Broganisity]

Only if my teammates complain whenever I (un)successfully use biotic charge for all my class interrupts.

---------------------------

Spoiler

"Pathfinder, the doors not working, we need to override the sec-"

"RAAAAAAAAAH!" *Biotic charges into door, totaling it: Touchdowns with the fragments.*

"Well, that works."

 

----------

"Pathfinder, we need to disable this bomb before it blows up and kills everyone on this colony, us included!"

"RAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" *Biotic Charges to a safe distance, slams bomb into ground touchdown style. Charges back as bomb goes off*

"Well. . .that. . .works?"

----------

"Pathfinder, she's going into labor! Quick, get an ambulan- Oh. . .****. NO! DON'T YOU DO IT."

"What?"

"Everytime I suggest something, you just go off and biotic charge."

"And?"

"YOU CAN'T JUST BIOTIC CHARGE A BABY OUT OF SOMEONE!"

". . .Why not?"

"Because- DO I REALLY HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS!?"

". . .Can I nova the baby out of-"

"NO YOU CAN'T NOVA THE BABY OUT OF HER!"

"SOMEONE HEEEEELP!"

"DAMMIT PATHFINDER, WE'RE LOSING HER! QUICK, HAND ME THAT-****!"

"RAAAAAAAH!"

*Pathfinder grabs woman and Biotic Charges through a hospital: touchdowns with the mother*

"SPIRITS DAMN YOU, PATHFINDER!"

---------

"Pathfinder, I- I think we need to talk-"

"About?"

"About us. . ."

"I don't follow."

"Dammit Pathfinder, I like you! You might be a dumb-as-bricks vanguard, but I like you! Let's go on a da- oh goddamit! No! NOOO! DO NOT CLASS INTERRUPT!"

"RAAAAAAAAAAAH!" *Biotic Charges Squaddie into a fancy restaurant: touchdowns in the salad bar. Charges to the beach: touchdowns into the water. Charges back to the captain's quarters. Touchdowns the prize in a vanguard-and-not-lewd way*

"Aaaaaand there go those feelings. And my spine."

--------------

. . .I shouldn't have access to a computer in the middle of the night.

[Ahriman]

1. They can certainly anticipate consequences in romance. Outside of that, gender doesn't cause any differences, does it? There are no characters that live or die because Shepard is a certain gender, nor objectives that are met or failed, nor choices opened or closed.

 

2. Yes, and the correct choice is 'none.' No class impact.

 

3. No, they don't. The only time the class of the companions Shepard brings affects the story is the suicide mission, and it's made very clear which classes are the correct choice.

 

4. No, it's really not 'simple.' Has it possibly crossed your mind that maybe someone wants their character to understand technology, but heavily dislikes playing engineer? Like me, for example? Are they just screwed? Are they stuck with gameplay they don't really like for however many dozen hours to get the story they want? What if a player wants their character to understand both weapons and technology? What sort of dialogue are vanguards and sentinels supposed to get?

 

5. Why don't you attempt to ddress my points instead of saying "No, this is actually easy."

1. No, they can't because that would be close-minded and intolerant. Still gender does affect romances, so should classes when it hits their area of proficiency.

2. Major decisions should be in player's hands of course. If my biotics can save life of random citizen #3 or throw few barrels in those asari face, why the hell not?

3. Huh? We recruit Jack and Samara because they are renown biotics. We recruit Garrus and Zaeed because they are renown fighters. And so on, it was in mission briefing in case you missed that.

4. Does it also bugs when your fighter can't detect spells in D&D?

 

What sort of dialogue are vanguards and sentinels supposed to get?

Appropriate one. Context is a key.

5. Because your point was "guaranteed enormous problems? For Shepherd's sake, it has nothing to do with list of abilities, they aren't used in cutscenes anyway, because I don't remember "biotic fly" or "make a hole in a wall" abilities.

[BabyPuncher]

1. No, they can't because that would be close-minded and intolerant. Still gender does affect romances, so should classes when it hits their area of proficiency.

2. Major decisions should be in player's hands of course. If my biotics can save life of random citizen #3 or throw few barrels in those asari face, why the hell not?

3. Huh? We recruit Jack and Samara because they are renown biotics. We recruit Garrus and Zaeed because they are renown fighters. And so on, it was in mission briefing in case you missed that.

4. Does it also bugs when your fighter can't detect spells in D&D?

Appropriate one. Context is a key.

5. Because your point was "guaranteed enormous problems? For Shepherd's sake, it has nothing to do with list of abilities, they aren't used in cutscenes anyway, because I don't remember "biotic fly" or "make a hole in a wall" abilities.

 

1. No, they should not. Gender does not affect gameplay. If I want to play as a female to experience certain romances, I can do that without having to slog through dozens of hours of gameplay I don't like. Class does affect gameplay. If I want to experience the 'engineer' story, I have no choice but to complete the chore of playing through the game as a class I don't like. Do you understand that crucial difference?

 

2. That is precisely my point. Major decisions should be in the player's hands. That is literally what I am saying. Which is precisely the reason why basing a choice off whether the player picked the 'right' class at the beginning of the game is idiotic. The player had absolutely no way of knowing that a character they liked was going to die because they picked the 'wrong' class. It's nothing more than "You weren't magically able to guess that picking this class 40 hours ago was the wrong choice so this guy dies." How can you possibly claim that to be a choice "in the player's hands"?

 

3. Do you even understand what I'm talking about here? The classes the player takes on missions does not effect the story. Does Shepard take two biotics on a mission? The story is the same. Does Shepard take one soldier and one tech on a mission? The story is the same. Does Shepard take one soldier-tech hybrid and one biotic on a mission? The story is the same. Is that clear enough?

 

4. Never played DnD, and I don't particularly care what it does.

 

5. That's exactly the point. These problems don't occur in the current Mass Effect games because they don't incorporate class abilities in cutscenes. But they will occur in future games if the developers make the mistake of trying to implement it.

[Hazegurl]

In the Omega DLC the Engineer was able to efficiently/exclusively hack the reactor, which makes sense so you know that's their field of expertise.

I agree, the best parts of Omega was being acknowledged as an Engineer.  I also like how it's mentioned in the Citadel DLC as well.

[Ahriman]

1. No, they should not. Gender does not affect gameplay. If I want to play as a female to experience certain romances, I can do that without having to slog through dozens of hours of gameplay I don't like. Class does affect gameplay. If I want to experience the 'engineer' story, I have no choice but to complete the chore of playing through the game as a class I don't like. Do you understand that crucial difference?

 

2. That is precisely my point. Major decisions should be in the player's hands. That is literally what I am saying. Which is precisely the reason why basing a choice off whether the player picked the 'right' class at the beginning of the game is idiotic. The player had absolutely no way of knowing that a character they liked was going to die because they picked the 'wrong' class. It's nothing more than "You weren't magically able to guess that picking this class 40 hours ago was the wrong choice so this guy dies." How can you possibly claim that to be a choice "in the player's hands"?

 

3. Do you even understand what I'm talking about here? The classes the player takes on missions does not effect the story. Does Shepard take two biotics on a mission? The story is the same. Does Shepard take one soldier and one tech on a mission? The story is the same. Does Shepard take one soldier-tech hybrid and one biotic on a mission? The story is the same. Is that clear enough?

 

4. Never played DnD, and I don't particularly care what it does.

 

5. That's exactly the point. These problems don't occur in the current Mass Effect games because they don't incorporate class abilities in cutscenes. But they will occur in future games if the developers make the mistake of trying to implement it.

1. If you have to endure hours of gameplay for a few cutscenes and "You should use X-43VC instead of X-45, it's more reliable" that's the problem of your inner masochist. "Engineer story", kek.

2. You had several ways to kill Tali in ME2, what's your loss if there is another option to do it in class-specific way?

3. Not only their class doesn't matter here, nothing does matter about them. I don't expect their class matter if their entire personality doesn't matter. What's wrong with that?

5. Your point again? If it wasn't a problem for Liara's biotics in LotSB, why should it be problem for Pathfinder?

[Belial]

I couldn't agree more! It's always weird seeing my Adept Shepard helplessly shooting at the approaching enemies while trying to escape a place instead of using biotics in cutscenes. I don't want anything too extreme that could throw off people like different story outcomes, but each class handling cutscenes differently (for example Adept and Sentinel using Throw, Engineer and Infiltrator using Incinerate, Soldier and Vanguard just shooting) would be a nice touch.

[78stonewobble]

1. No, they should not. Gender does not affect gameplay. If I want to play as a female to experience certain romances, I can do that without having to slog through dozens of hours of gameplay I don't like. Class does affect gameplay. If I want to experience the 'engineer' story, I have no choice but to complete the chore of playing through the game as a class I don't like. Do you understand that crucial difference?

 

2. That is precisely my point. Major decisions should be in the player's hands. That is literally what I am saying. Which is precisely the reason why basing a choice off whether the player picked the 'right' class at the beginning of the game is idiotic. The player had absolutely no way of knowing that a character they liked was going to die because they picked the 'wrong' class. It's nothing more than "You weren't magically able to guess that picking this class 40 hours ago was the wrong choice so this guy dies." How can you possibly claim that to be a choice "in the player's hands"?

 

3. Do you even understand what I'm talking about here? The classes the player takes on missions does not effect the story. Does Shepard take two biotics on a mission? The story is the same. Does Shepard take one soldier and one tech on a mission? The story is the same. Does Shepard take one soldier-tech hybrid and one biotic on a mission? The story is the same. Is that clear enough?

 

4. Never played DnD, and I don't particularly care what it does.

 

5. That's exactly the point. These problems don't occur in the current Mass Effect games because they don't incorporate class abilities in cutscenes. But they will occur in future games if the developers make the mistake of trying to implement it.

 

1. Unless you don't like the voice actor or doesn't find it as immersive... In which case you allready have to slog through dozens of hours of gameplay you don't like, to experience certain romances (story differences). 

 

2. In me1 background directly impacted the story you experienced with no foreknowledge for new players. Unless they looked it up beforehand. 

 

3. Unlike so many other choices... which does make the no impact class choice the odd duck out. 

 

5. Every argument you have levied are allready in the games with chosen backgrounds, backstory, dialogue choice and interrupts. Ie. going very paragon prevents you from doing renegade choices and vice versa. 

[Chealec]

This is a terrible idea that would create a heaping load of complications I'm increasingly convinced are simply above the heads of most players.

 

Not really - though you do have to design levels to allow multiple routes to the same destination (whether that's a plot destination or physical location). With one route being the unsubtle, available to everyone, shoot it until you can get through.

 

If the NPCs in your party can also use "class abilities" it allows you to reach that destination via multiple routes.

 

 

There's a reinforced gate in a wall, do you:

 

a ) use an engineer to hack the control panel to open the gate?

b ) use a biotic to levitate a girder to make a ramp over the wall?

c ) retrieve the demolitions charge from the guarded armoury and blast your way through (alerting all enemies in the area)?

 

 

This is pretty much how Shadowrun resolves these multiple paths - it does require some thought around level design of course.