170 réponses à ce sujet

[Zekka]

Still slightly missing my point ... most RPGs are swords and sorcery affairs; loot a warhammer and you can be pretty sure you hold the end with grip and smack the bad guys with the big heavy end. You might not be very proficient with it, hell you might not even be strong enough to lift it comfortably if it's a big enough warhammer. You're certainly not gonna lug it around in your backpack if that's the case.

 

Mass Effect is, obviously, a Sci-Fi RPG. You kill a space monster and pick its gun up... you might not even be able to work out which end the blast comes out of let alone what any of those weird symbols mean. That's if the alien is even suitably humanoid enough for you to use it even if you could work out how. It's not a matter of a requirement of your Str or Dex stat but simply that you've just picked up some completely alien high-tech weapon and you have absolutely no idea how it works... or what will happen if you do figure out the trigger.

 

A Krogan Heavy Claymore looks pretty much like a regular Claymore - the tech isn't that alien (developed by the Alliance after all) - you may think, "hey, this is a Claymore, I can shoot this!", you may well be physically able to pick it up and fire it but you'll need a squadmate to glue your arms back on afterwards. That's with tech you do understand.

 

Far safer to just scan it and send the data to the techs to work out. Even if it's not something that can be wielded by a human it could be perhaps mounted on a bot or given to a Krogan... it could still be useful, just not directly to the PC.

You would think that a soldier would have some knowledge on an infamous gun that is called a "Krogan gun" and is known for snapping arms. If you, the player is dumb enough to equip the gun and fire it and your character dies then it's your fault.

 

 

 

 

From a lore or story perspective, I don't think its fair to compare scifi and fantasy weapon progression.

 

With mass production, any N7 or Spectre should be equipped with the best weapons of the Alliance and the Council. Also, the powerful weapons in fantasy games generally have some sort of magical element, which wouldn't work in Mass Effect.

 

If we have weapon progression (and from a gameplay perspective, I hope we do!) I'd like to start with the best technology the Milky Way has to offer, and only upgrade with the alien improvements we come across in Andromeda.

This idea isn't very good. What's the point of starting with the best gear and spending all that time driving in your Mako just to collect weapon upgrades for your own weapons? This is one of people's fears for this.

 

The Council tells you that a spectre should be self sufficient.

[wolfsite]

Predator and Avenger are standard issue weapons for Alliance soldiers, plus regardless of how you feel about them there look is very iconic of the Mass Effect series so they should be there in some form, if they are upgraded who knows.

 

What would be interesting though is if it gave you the choice of picking the standard issue equipment of the military's that are involved with the Ark program.  Say, for example, you can choose a Phaeston loadout since the Turians are a part of the crew.

[Ahglock]

You would think that a soldier would have some knowledge on an infamous gun that is called a "Krogan gun" and is known for snapping arms. If you, the player is dumb enough to equip the gun and fire it and your character dies then it's your fault.

 

 

 

 

I think the point is more about completely alien guns since we are now in a  new galaxy.  While yes some guns might be super bizarre I expect most the races we deal with will be humanoids so something kind of like a gun is likely IMO, whether that is logical or not.  Now its possible we might bump into totally alien tech, then you just have a scene where protagonist picks it up goes WTF is this thing that was killing my men, scans it and uses it in the next mission.  Once you  are familiar with how Keth weapons work you pick them up in the field and blaze away.

[Chealec]

You would think that a soldier would have some knowledge on an infamous gun that is called a "Krogan gun" and is known for snapping arms. If you, the player is dumb enough to equip the gun and fire it and your character dies then it's your fault.

 

Fair point ... but come on, you would though wouldn't you? Just to see what happened.

 

Yup - I pressed the red button on the nuke in Wasteland 2.

 

[kajtarp]

 

This idea isn't very good. What's the point of starting with the best gear and spending all that time driving in your Mako just to collect weapon upgrades for your own weapons? This is one of people's fears for this.

 

The Council tells you that a spectre should be self sufficient.

 

self sufficient yes. but an elite soldier should get elite weaponry, no? 

 

in mass effect 2 cerberus spent 2 billion credits for project lazarus and then i have to hack bloody pda devices in the middle of missions to have some credits? even tough i'm fighting with time, in every moment more and more humans are abducted? We can see warden kuril with a revenant, we can see an Asari with a claymore in Miranda's loyalty mission.....

 

we got the most advanced turian human hybrid design ship the Normandy, we are fighting for the fate of the universe in Mass Effect 3. Then everything whats present in the normandy armory is a level1 avenger and predator with no weapon mods? After we upgraded everything in mass effect 2? I must complete stupid side mission to have enough credits to buy a spectre gun? in times where credits are less and less valuable and everything is about pure survival because of the reaper invasion?  don't you think there is a contradiction here? 

 

I'd imagine the universes best spaceship has the best from everything. Second, during a reaper invasion i imagine politicians and weapon manufacturers would kneel and get on their knees and beg for me to save them. 

 

can you imagine russian specnaz or the u.s. navy seals not using state of the art weaponry?

[Wulfram]

we got the most advanced turian human hybrid design ship the Normandy, we are fighting for the fate of the universe in Mass Effect 3. Then everything whats present in the normandy armory is a level1 avenger and predator with no weapon mods? After we upgraded everything in mass effect 2? I must complete stupid side mission to have enough credits to buy a spectre gun? in times where credits are less and less valuable and everything is about pure survival because of the reaper invasion?  don't you think there is a contradiction here?

The Normandy was still on refit, so it's armoury not being stocked actually makes some sort of sense. We should have been able to fix that once we arrived at the Citadel, but being short of weapon choice on Mars is relatively sensible.

[capn233]

 

can you imagine russian specnaz or the u.s. navy seals not using state of the art weaponry?

 

 

Yes.

[Zekka]

Fair point ... but come on, you would though wouldn't you? Just to see what happened.

Yup - I pressed the red button on the nuke in Wasteland 2.

I'd do it then reload my saves.

I think the point is more about completely alien guns since we are now in a new galaxy. While yes some guns might be super bizarre I expect most the races we deal with will be humanoids so something kind of like a gun is likely IMO, whether that is logical or not. Now its possible we might bump into totally alien tech, then you just have a scene where protagonist picks it up goes WTF is this thing that was killing my men, scans it and uses it in the next mission. Once you are familiar with how Keth weapons work you pick them up in the field and blaze away.

I understand this, fair point but if it is something that we already have or should have knowledge on then I expect to use it if it is feasible.

[Jaquio]

Not particularly.

 

 

I don't see how this makes any sense or even answers my question. Making someone do something is incompatible with them making a "choice," and I don't see how ammunition would be an issue unless you were given a fixed, limited amount for the whole game (which would probably cause riots, so I think we can safely say that won't happen.)

 

 

Again, I don't see how this even answers my question. Mod specialization could exist or not exist independently of what weapons we start with.

 

You don't see how ammunition would be an issue?  How do you plan on getting ammo for Alliance weapons resupplied in Andromeda?

 

It's not even like I'm talking about groundbreaking stuff.  You get the Cain in ME2 about halfway through.  Why don't you just nuke everything all game from that point on?  Oh wait, you don't have enough ammo to do that.

 

So perhaps, over time, your ammunition for Alliance weapons dwindle and you start to utilize weaker alien weapons to supplement your limited supply of Alliance munitions.  That's a perfectly valid explanation for the question you posited concerning why you would use weaker weapons than ones with which you started.

 

As for mods, perhaps you come across a weapon not as strong as your all purpose rifle, but you install a bunch of mods that make it super deadly against synthetic enemies at range.  So now it's very good at taking out automated turrets and AI enemies at distance.  That's a perfectly valid explanation of how you would use mods to utilize weaker weapons than the ones with which you started, and make it so they have value situationally.

 

Honestly, I'm not even reinventing the wheel here.  These are all semi-common systems that have been successfully used in other games.

[AlanC9]

Right, I agree. I think it's not that important in PnP RPGs because there, you have so much freedom that you can make your game more about character interactions, dialogue and really playing a character as such, which can be extremely rewarding.
Video games are much more constrained in hat regard because it isn't something you can program with the same degree of freedom for the player. So what you need is a programmable and thus ultimately repetitive game mechanic which still generates a rewarding experience. Fight & loot progressively better gear is probably the most effective way to do this.
Are there any video game RPGs out there that don't have gear progression? I've been trying to think of one but nothing comes to mind.

I don't see, in theory, why the combat by itself can't take over the "programmable and ultimately repetitive" function; god knows a CRPG offers tons more combat that any PnP RPG. An ME1 NG+ run works that way already.

As for examples, the problem is that loot progression is considered a hallmark of the CRPG genre. Is Freedom Force a CRPG, for instance?

[RIPRemusTheTurian]

This idea isn't very good. What's the point of starting with the best gear and spending all that time driving in your Mako just to collect weapon upgrades for your own weapons? This is one of people's fears for this.

 

The Council tells you that a spectre should be self sufficient.

 

I never said the improvements would be open-world collectables. You could get them from research, storyline, or looting, I don't care. My point is that we should start with the best weapons available on the Ark, and future improvements should be based on how we technologically progress in Andromeda.

 

Yes, the Council says self sufficiency and yes, the stores lock you out of Spectre level weapons, but my point is that - as the highest ranking Special Forces and a Spectre - Shepard should have been equipped with the best weapons the Alliance and the Council had to offer.

[WillieStyle]

I've seen the suggestion a couple times in this thread that "weak" weapons should be balanced by ammo availability. I think this is a bad idea and that the way Bioware did things in ME3 is far superior.

In ME3, you had the Harrier and the Lancer, two powerful assault rifles you didn't get at the start. They had very different ammo capacity but were bith powerful. An alternative system where you got weak high capacity weapons, and strong low capacity weapons would be a step backwards.

Also, progression is an important mechanic in almost all games. Being able to imrpove your character by overcoming obstacles is a valuable part of game play.

Players claim they want to start with all of the best gear available at the start. But that's just evidence that players make lousy game designers. Most professional game designers have chosen to sprinkle the most powerful gear as rewards for progressing through the game. The alternative would be boring.

In fact, one of the most frequent complaints in the DA:I forums was that gear drops were worse than crafted gear so that the stuff you got at the end of a mission was often worse than the gear you could craft before even undertaking the mission.

[Zekka]

I never said the improvements would be open-world collectables. You could get them from research, storyline, or looting, I don't care. My point is that we should start with the best weapons available on the Ark, and future improvements should be based on how we technologically progress in Andromeda.

Yes, the Council says self sufficiency and yes, the stores lock you out of Spectre level weapons, but my point is that - as the highest ranking Special Forces and a Spectre - Shepard should have been equipped with the best weapons the Alliance and the Council had to offer.

No, the council owes you nothing. Stop expecting to get free stuff and work for it.

I will only agree with getting decently powerful weapons if the weapon variety in the game will be incredibly large.

[Jaquio]

Players claim they want to start with all of the best gear available at the start. But that's just evidence that players make lousy game designers. Most professional game designers have chosen to sprinkle the most powerful gear as rewards for progressing through the game. The alternative would be boring.
 

 

How much narrative consistency are you willing to sacrifice towards that end?

 

In ME3, Shep is a spectre tasked with pretty much the most important missions in the galaxy.  Denying him access to the best equipment for this purpose because he can't afford it and making him buy his own gear is ludicrous to the point of insulting the intelligence of the player.

 

There are ways to include progression and development that don't involve making the player start off the game with the equivalent of bashing rats in a sewer with a rusty sword.  It works in a TES game where you're an escaped prisoner.  It's stupid in a game where you're the great galactic hope in charge of the most advanced spaceship in the galaxy.

 

Desperate for gear progression?  Fine.  Have him discover special prototypes and experimental gear along the way.  Denying him the best weapons in the spectre requisitions doesn't make sense though, and it damages immersion.

[AlanC9]

Crafted stuff is generally better than found stuff, isn't it?

[AlanC9]

No, the council owes you nothing. Stop expecting to get free stuff and work for it.
I will only agree with getting decently powerful weapons if the weapon variety in the game will be incredibly large.

That's ridiculous. The Council shouldn't give you the best equipment available because they owe you something, they should give it to you because you're doing a mission for them and they want the mission to succeed.

Look, I know that you're just trying to find some way, however flimsy, to reconcile the gameplay approach you like with the setting. But you'll have to do better than this.

[Innocent Bystander]

You don't see how ammunition would be an issue?  How do you plan on getting ammo for Alliance weapons resupplied in Andromeda?
 
It's not even like I'm talking about groundbreaking stuff.  You get the Cain in ME2 about halfway through.  Why don't you just nuke everything all game from that point on?  Oh wait, you don't have enough ammo to do that.
 
So perhaps, over time, your ammunition for Alliance weapons dwindle and you start to utilize weaker alien weapons to supplement your limited supply of Alliance munitions.  That's a perfectly valid explanation for the question you posited concerning why you would use weaker weapons than ones with which you started.

Generally speaking you're right, obviously. But ME guns work differently. They have 'unlimited' ammunition and use thermal clips. Obvious solution would be to either revert back to ME1 style of overheating or ditch all thermal clips using guns and equip Lancers. Now using anything weaker is totally unjustifiable. Well, you could drum up some mechanical failures or whatnot, but those weapons don't have many moving parts so it would be a hard sell.

[kajtarp]

No, the council owes you nothing. Stop expecting to get free stuff and work for it.
 

 

thats kinda an example of thinking in a shortsighted way. i'm sorry.

[capn233]

That's ridiculous. The Council shouldn't give you the best equipment available because they owe you something, they should give it to you because you're doing a mission for them and they want the mission to succeed.

Look, I know that you're just trying to find some way, however flimsy, to reconcile the gameplay approach you like with the setting. But you'll have to do better than this.

 

I disagree with the premise that you need to justify the most basic of gameplay and balance decisions in the narrative.

 

Should Shepard have started with enough talent points to max all his / her talents at the start of ME1?  Shepard was N7 with the best training in the Alliance.  Why not start the game at Level 50 ot 60?

[AlanC9]

Sure, outright gameplay/story segregation can work. I think it's a much sounder approach than trying to tie the lore into knots to reconcile the story and the gameplay.

The cost is that the "RPG" features end up no longer supporting role-playing, and very likely undermine role-playing. Am I looting stuff because of the gameplay, or because Spectres really do have to go around killing people and looting their stuff all the time? And who is this level one toon I'm playing? It certainly isn't the Shepard I've been hearing about.

Nothing wrong with paying that cost, if "RPG features" trump actually role-playing for you. Really, we should just rename the genre.

[capn233]

Spectres also probably spend a lot of time writing reports.  They might eat a sandwich for lunch.  An rpg isn't supposed to be a 100% accurate depiction of what it would be like to be a Spectre or whoever for a day.

[Jaquio]

Spectres also probably spend a lot of time writing reports.  They might eat a sandwich for lunch.  An rpg isn't supposed to be a 100% accurate depiction of what it would be like to be a Spectre or whoever for a day.

 

That's a pretty specious argument.

 

If I watched a movie about Seal Team 6's assault on Bin Laden's compound at Abbottabad, and they skipped the scenes of the team members sleeping or using the restroom or eating, it would be understood that the narrative of the story was abridged for clarity.  Abridging stories for narrative focus is a basic and fundamental aspect of storytelling.

 

If I watched a movie about Seal Team 6's assault on the compound, and they included a scene where the commanding officer told the troops that the "military owes them nothing" and that they would be on their own for supplies, and then showed those same team members cashing in gold jewelry and taking payday loans so they could buy AR-15s at Wal Mart, then that would be painfully stupid.

 

There is a massive difference between taking out unnecessary pieces of the story, and telling a story that makes no sense.

[WillieStyle]

If we're going to use real life examples like Seal team 6, then I feel compelled to point out that those teams are far more likely to use standard issue, well-tested, well-understood weapons, than whatever the latest prototype is from Stark Enteprises.  Large well-run militaries are far more interested in making sure that gear is reliable than bleeding-edge.  For that reason, it likely takes years and tons of red-tape to approve any new weapon.  The real world version of Shepard wouldn't even be allowed to use the Harrier he bought with his own money instead of his reliable General Issue Avenger because Admiral Hacket's acquisitions bureaucracy hadn't approved it.

[Ahglock]

That's ridiculous. The Council shouldn't give you the best equipment available because they owe you something, they should give it to you because you're doing a mission for them and they want the mission to succeed.

Look, I know that you're just trying to find some way, however flimsy, to reconcile the gameplay approach you like with the setting. But you'll have to do better than this.

 

I'm assuming you never worked for the government.  No, they don't give you the best gear available.  The give you the gear they decide to budget you which is largely decided by which military contractor has the best lobbyists.

 

As for the buy your own gear specter philosophy its hardly new, many agencies have worked in grey areas like that its not common right now but historically it has happened a lot.  I think the bigger weird issue was the existence of Specter gear the HMV... gear seems a bit off for an off books unit.

[SwiftMustache]

Wouldn't the gear we start with will be the standard equipment of our faction? Like Pred/av were standard of the Alliance?