588 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Because the mandate didn't go into specifics it was just "preserve all life" a certain galaxy was never specified.

You've based your entire interpretation on natural language, without even considering the potential deficiencies of that approach.

Given how the reaper's are still around and that when they start the harvest they have access to all the vital information regarding locations of colonies, resources, military strength etc. I'm inclined to believe they did.

See above how can they do that when the reaper's know everything about their civilization.

They think they know everything.

Imagine for a moment that, for some past civilization, they didn't. They missed some important detail because they failed to predict it. They don't know they missed it, so they keep saying that they know everything. They're wrong, but they don't know they're wrong. So their accounts of their past success wouldn't change.

Everything we think know about the Reapers we know because the Reapers told us. We have direct evidence that they do sometimes make untrue statements. So why would we think their accounts of their own history are infallible?

The reaper's generally never leave a stone unturned (Ilos was a special case) and since they have all the information and control of the relay's its unlikely that past civilizations survived the harvest.

For any given civilization, sure. Extremely unlikely, even.

But as long as the probability isn't zero, it will eventually occur.

There have been innumerable harvests. With each harvest, the probability than some civilization escapes increases (because there are more civilizations in the pool of potential escapees).

As long as you keep running the scenario, every unlikely outcomes eventually occurs. The math guarantees it.

Nope its quite obvious that the technology to travel to other galaxies doesn't exist during the trilogy.

You base that on what? That no one is using it?

[Lonely Heart Poet]

What I really think that all those endings give multiply possibilities for the future Andromeda lodgers.
Synthesis is actually the ending which makes me the most curious even though it wasn't my ending. I would really like to see the way that BioWare wanted us to see it (but I believe they now have much doubts about it themselves). Summa summarum, all the endings gives enough space for the new story, reapers included or not. I only have problems if they give zero information about our home galaxy. I am not playing the new game for replaying the Shepard story even though Shepard is number 1. I am in peace with the hints and noddings to the past.

[Iakus]

 
You base that on what? That no one is using it?

No one is using it

 

No one is mentioned ever using it in the past

 

No one has ever mentioned it

 

Limits to the technology that is being used or known to be used

 

The fact that if this technology existed it would render Reaper harvests completely pointless so why isn't this plan B instead?

[Former_Fiend]

I imagine there are a lot of things that exist in the Mass Effect Universe that Shepard never heard anyone talk about. It's a big galaxy. No one ever talked about Drell until Shepard met Thane, for instance. 

 

We could be talking about highly experimental, theoretical technology that's being rushed into practice years before it's ready and who knows if it's even going to work; it could fail and leave us cold and stranded in dark space, we could get swallowed up by a rogue black hole in transit, or any other of the millions of things that can kill you at a moment's notice in space. And with the resource drain of the war plus the imperitive to keep this project on the downlow less the reapers sabatoge it, or try and cut us off at the pass by beating us to Andromeda(assuming they aren't there already), there's no way this tech could be used to save everyone. It's just one(one hopes) desperate attempt out of many to stave off extinction.

 

As for why it's not plan a, well, like I said, there's no way it could save everyone or even a fraction of everyone. Plus, as the reaction of several people in this thread shows, we have this natural urge to stand and fight, to hold our ground and defend our homes. Shepard would never suggest this plan because Shepard isn't interested in running and hiding, Shepard wants to beat the Reapers and put a stop to the cycles once and for all. Other individuals are more reasonable than that. 

 

There, I just wrote your justification. Pure speculation on my part, of course, and very rough in form. But if you don't think that could work, especially with the good people at Bioware having a few more years to think about it than I have so they can iron out the details, then you're just being obstinate. 

[Han Shot First]

 

If the species have already come up for a solution for dealing static build up then they would've already implemented a long time ago (and for that matter the reaper's since they don't want to have their systems fried). So its quite obvious that no such technology exist since they still have difficulty exploring the galaxy without the help of the mass relay's and therefore heavily reliant on the relay network to travel long distances.

 

 

 

The technology does exist in universe. Check the codex entries for the Citadel. Space stations have technology that enables them to static discharge without entering a planet's atmosphere. 

 

 

Reaper drive cores are more complicated than regular drive cores since they "break the all known laws of physics" there is now way it can be reversed engineered in a few months let alone two years. Then there's not getting indoctrinated which is easier said than done and the superstition of using reversed engineered reaper tech.

 

 

The Council species don't understand Reaper drive cores only because they've never seen one. Prior to Mass Effect 3 the only Reaper they've had a chance to study has been Sovereign, and it was blown to smithereens. During the Reaper War there are multiple intact Reapers laying around that have been destroyed. Shepard potentially even gains a tech upgrade from one.

 

Reaper drive cores are entirely fictional technology that almost nothing is said about in the lore. As such the amount of time it would take the Council species to reverse engineer one is exactly the amount of time the writers say it would take. 

 

Declaring that 'Reaper drive cores can't be reverse engineered in time' is entirely arbitrary and not at all based on any existing lore.

[Mdizzletr0n]

ME has canon?!

[Drone223]

You've based your entire interpretation on natural language, without even considering the potential deficiencies of that approach.
 

If life exist in the Milky way then there's a high probability that it exist in other galaxies so if the reaper's had the means to travel to other galaxy's they would apply that mandate to other galaxies. Since there is a chance that synthetic from other galaxy's may one day invade the milky way and wipe out organic life.
 

 

They think they know everything.

Imagine for a moment that, for some past civilization, they didn't. They missed some important detail because they failed to predict it. They don't know they missed it, so they keep saying that they know everything. They're wrong, but they don't know they're wrong. So their accounts of their past success wouldn't change.

Everything we think know about the Reapers we know because the Reapers told us. We have direct evidence that they do sometimes make untrue statements. So why would we think their accounts of their own history are infallible?

 

The reaper's conveniently make their technology available to other species so they become heavily dependent on them this helps the reaper know where they are. The citadel is also used by passed cycles as their center of government so they'll be able take out the leader ship in one attack and control the relay network. Developing the means to flee the galaxy when your isolated from each other is going to next to impossible since such a feat will need a lot of coordination. There are also somethings that the reaper's say that shouldn't be taken at face value "Our numbers will darken the sky's." is a good example.

 

 

 

For any given civilization, sure. Extremely unlikely, even.

But as long as the probability isn't zero, it will eventually occur.

There have been innumerable harvests. With each harvest, the probability than some civilization escapes increases (because there are more civilizations in the pool of potential escapees).

As long as you keep running the scenario, every unlikely outcomes eventually occurs. The math guarantees it.

 

The technology of these civilisations is still based on the mass relay's and intergalactic travel is impossible with mass relay technology. The reapers also harvest species before they can surpass them technologically.

 

You base that on what? That no one is us

No such technology is used or mentioned at any point in the trilogy (and the series for that matter) if it did exist it would've been brought up.

[Drone223]

The technology does exist in universe. Check the codex entries for the Citadel. Space stations have technology that enables them to static discharge without entering a planet's atmosphere. 

 

It doesn't, because if it did then that technology would be on ever ship long before the trilogy but this is not the case.

 

The Council species don't understand Reaper drive cores only because they've never seen one. Prior to Mass Effect 3 the only Reaper they've had a chance to study has been Sovereign, and it was blown to smithereens. During the Reaper War there are multiple intact Reapers laying around that have been destroyed. Shepard potentially even gains a tech upgrade from one.

 

Reaper drive cores are entirely fictional technology that almost nothing is said about in the lore. As such the amount of time it would take the Council species to reverse engineer one is exactly the amount of time the writers say it would take. 

 

Declaring that 'Reaper drive cores can't be reverse engineered in time' is entirely arbitrary and not at all based on any existing lore.

 

Reaper drive core's are said to "break the knows laws of physics" that would mean that they'll have to understand how it works in the first place before they can even start making one. I seriously doubt they can do that in the span of two years since it'd be like asking a cave man to build a nuclear reactor, then there's the risk of indoctrination.

[Killroy]

No such technology is used or mentioned at any point in the trilogy (and the series for that matter) if it did exist it would've been brought up.

That is the flimsiest possible logic. No secrets can be kept from The Shepherd? Nothing exists if The Shepherd hasn't heard of it?

Serious question: Are you a solipsist?

[dreamgazer]

Oh, come on, folks. If an unknown sentient plant can cobble together a necessary magic brain filter by digesting Protheans, who knows what alien method might also appear to enhance travel abilities a tad bit so this cycle can get to Andromeda.

[Drone223]

That is the flimsiest possible logic. No secrets can be kept from The Shepherd? Nothing exists if The Shepherd hasn't heard of it?

Serious question: Are you a solipsist?

I never said that, did you even read my post? I said that if the technology existed it would've been mentioned at least once in the series (games, novels, comics etc.) at no point did I specifically mention Shepard.
 

[Killroy]

I never said that, did you even read my post? I said that if the technology existed it would've been mentioned at least once in the series (games, novels, comics etc.) at no point did I specifically mention Shepard.

It's the exact same principle. And it's completely illogical. You're saying that the tree doesn't make a sound.

[Han Shot First]

It doesn't, because if it did then that technology would be on ever ship long before the trilogy but this is not the case.

 

 

"Element zero FTL drives accumulate a static electrical charge when a vessel has been in FTL flight for some time. This charge steadily increases with the amount of time a vessel spends in FTL. Eventually, it must be discharged. The safe method involves discharging into a planet's magnetic field (for large ships, incapable of planetary landings) or actual surface contact (in the case of smaller vessels). Space stations and similar structures which are not located near planets are usually equipped with their own discharging facilities; the Citadel has dozens of these."

 

link

 

 

 

 

Reaper drive core's are said to "break the knows laws of physics" that would mean that they'll have to understand how it works in the first place before they can even start making one. I seriously doubt they can do that in the span of two years since it'd be like asking a cave man to build a nuclear reactor, then there's the risk of indoctrination.

 

Nothing breaks the laws of physics. When something appears to break the laws of Physics, it is because our understanding of the universe is flawed or our calculations are off. The Council species do not understand how Reaper drives work, because they've never seen inside one. The only thing they are able to observe is that the Reapers travel seemingly without the need to refuel, but what is going on within a Reaper is a complete unknown. That could potentially change during the course of the Reaper War, when you have multiple destroyed Reapers lying about that are largely intact.

 

How long is a reasonable amount of time to reverse engineer an entirely fictional piece of technology of which next to nothing is said in the games? 

 

Indoctrination is no barrier considering there is already precedent in the lore of recovering and reverse engineering Reaper technology. Robots and drones also exist in universe. In fact it is what Shepard uses to obtain a tech upgrade from one of the destroyed Reapers.

[Sylvius the Mad]

COnsider this:  

 

THeir mandate is to "preserve life at all cost"  SPecifically, keep synthetic life from surpassing their creators and wiping out all organic life.

 

I think we can both agree that this much is the Reaper "mandate".

But we don't, though.

 

I'll agree that the Reapers think that's their mandate.  But we don't know whether there are constraints on that mandate of which they are unaware.

 

Stop thinking like a person.  Start thinking like a computer.  Have you ever done any programming?  You need to define everything so that the computer knows exactly what everything means.  And really small differences can matter a lot.

 

Think about regular expressions.  They're broadly similar across a variety of programming environments, but there are subtle (and not so subtle differences) in the vocabulary between, say, Java and SQL and Python.  So the same RegEx might do different things depending on its environment.

 

You can extrapolate from life in this galaxy to posit the existence of life in other galaxies.  Can they?  Why are you confident that they can?

 

I'm not saying they can't.  I'm saying we don't know.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No one is using it

As far as you know.

 

 

No one is mentioned ever using it in the past

To you.

 

 

No one has ever mentioned it

Directly.

 

 

Limits to the technology that is being used or known to be used

Which are largely based o your extrapolations.

 

 

The fact that if this technology existed it would render Reaper harvests completely pointless so why isn't this plan B instead?

It could be new, or untested, or have been suppressed or hidden for political reasons, or any number of other things.  Throughout ME3 we see governments doing dumb things for dumb reasons.  That's what governments do.

 

Government - If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions!

 

Any answer to your question defeats your position.  Defeating my position requires exhaustive knowledge of everything going on in the galaxy.

 

One of us has a much steeper hill to climb.

[Sylvius the Mad]

 I question your standard of evidence.

If life exist in the Milky way then there's a high probability that it exist in other galaxies so if the reaper's had the means to travel to other galaxy's they would apply that mandate to other galaxies. Since there is a chance that synthetic from other galaxy's may one day invade the milky way and wipe out organic life.

You haven't connected those dots adequately.

 

Do the Reapers consider that possibility?  How do you know?  Do you have actual evidence of that, or are you simply offering conjecture based on your natural language understanding of something a computer said to you?

The reaper's conveniently make their technology available to other species so they become heavily dependent on them this helps the reaper know where they are. The citadel is also used by passed cycles as their center of government so they'll be able take out the leader ship in one attack and control the relay network.

Yes, that's the plan.

 

Does it always work?  Would the Reapers know if it didn't?

Developing the means to flee the galaxy when your isolated from each other is going to next to impossible since such a feat will need a lot of coordination.

We don't know that.

The technology of these civilisations is still based on the mass relay's and intergalactic travel is impossible with mass relay technology. The reapers also harvest species before they can surpass them technologically.

So they say.  They can't know for sure that it's true.  So neither can we.

No such technology is used or mentioned at any point in the trilogy (and the series for that matter) if it did exist it would've been brought up.

Why do you think that?

[Dantriges]

I never said that, did you even read my post? I said that if the technology existed it would've been mentioned at least once in the series (games, novels, comics etc.) at no point did I specifically mention Shepard.
 

 

So yeah, it will be retroactively invented, because BW wants to make a sequel after they torched the setting very thoroughly.

[dreamgazer]

So yeah, it will be retroactively invented, because BW wants to make a sequel after they torched the setting very thoroughly.

If they wanted to do this much more simply, they could canonize an ending and a few world-state variables. They want to go to Andromeda.

[Iakus]

But we don't, though.

 

I'll agree that the Reapers think that's their mandate.  But we don't know whether there are constraints on that mandate of which they are unaware.

 

Stop thinking like a person.  Start thinking like a computer.  Have you ever done any programming?  You need to define everything so that the computer knows exactly what everything means.  And really small differences can matter a lot.

 

Think about regular expressions.  They're broadly similar across a variety of programming environments, but there are subtle (and not so subtle differences) in the vocabulary between, say, Java and SQL and Python.  So the same RegEx might do different things depending on its environment.

 

You can extrapolate from life in this galaxy to posit the existence of life in other galaxies.  Can they?  Why are you confident that they can?

 

I'm not saying they can't.  I'm saying we don't know.

I am not thinking like a person here.  I am thinking like a machine.  WIth absolutist if/then logic.

 

They were told to "preserve organic life at all cost."

 

At

 

All

 

Cost.

 

If they were told "at all cost, then that means no constraints.  A detail the Leviathans learned to their sorrow then the Catalyst mulched them because they were "part of the problem" 

[Iakus]

As far as you know.

 

 

To you.

 

 

Directly.

 

 

Which are largely based o your extrapolations.

 

 

It could be new, or untested, or have been suppressed or hidden for political reasons, or any number of other things.  Throughout ME3 we see governments doing dumb things for dumb reasons.  That's what governments do.

 

Government - If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions!

 

Any answer to your question defeats your position.  Defeating my position requires exhaustive knowledge of everything going on in the galaxy.

 

One of us has a much steeper hill to climb.

 

I suspect that if such technology existed it wouldn't be "new" as such.  As there would likely be a number of iterations of the technology as it improved.  Be it wormhole technology or better eezo cores.  We're talking jumping across galaxies, when a way to jump between star systems without a relay would be absolutely HUGE.  It would almost certainly take years or even decades to figure it out how to cross galaxies.  

 

That's a long time for leaks to NOT happen.

[Former_Fiend]

I never said that, did you even read my post? I said that if the technology existed it would've been mentioned at least once in the series (games, novels, comics etc.) at no point did I specifically mention Shepard.
 

 

A lot of things are never mentioned in the series that I'm decently sure still exist.

 

Nothing gets mentioned until, at the very least, the writers think of it. Even then it may go unmentioned if the writers can't find a way to work it in in a way that is at least somewhat organic.

 

There is the very real possibility the bioware writers hadn't considered going to Andromeda yet. You've stated your opinion on retcons, but that's a) an opinion, and b.) a reason why they shouldn't go that route, not a reason why they won't. Even if you think it's a bad idea, that doesn't mean they won't go that route.

 

It is also entirely possible they had considered moving to Andromeda already and just hadn't put any mention into the original trilogy for a plethora of reasons. To start with, "if we can leave the galaxy, why don't we?!" questions would get annoying even though there are plenty of plausible reasons for that(insufficent resources to move everyone, the reapers would just follow us"). Also, the tension of ME3 is lessened if you know there's a group of people escaping the Galaxy even if you fail. Even with all the ways they could die, there's still the feeling of "Well, if we lose that sucks, but at least the Andromeda group survives."

 

So, assuming they had planned to switch galaxies during ME3's development(which I'm not saying they were, just that it is possible), there are reasons they'd keep any foreshadowing to the vaguest bare minimum without any specific mention of travelling outside the Milky Way to avoid spoilers or killing tension.

[FKA_Servo]

 

A lot of things are never mentioned in the series that I'm decently sure still exist.

 

Nothing gets mentioned until, at the very least, the writers think of it. Even then it may go unmentioned if the writers can't find a way to work it in in a way that is at least somewhat organic.

 

There is the very real possibility the bioware writers hadn't considered going to Andromeda yet. You've stated your opinion on retcons, but that's a) an opinion, and b.) a reason why they shouldn't go that route, not a reason why they won't. Even if you think it's a bad idea, that doesn't mean they won't go that route.

 

It is also entirely possible they had considered moving to Andromeda already and just hadn't put any mention into the original trilogy for a plethora of reasons. To start with, "if we can leave the galaxy, why don't we?!" questions would get annoying even though there are plenty of plausible reasons for that(insufficent resources to move everyone, the reapers would just follow us"). Also, the tension of ME3 is lessened if you know there's a group of people escaping the Galaxy even if you fail. Even with all the ways they could die, there's still the feeling of "Well, if we lose that sucks, but at least the Andromeda group survives."

 

So, assuming they had planned to switch galaxies during ME3's development(which I'm not saying they were, just that it is possible), there are reasons they'd keep any foreshadowing to the vaguest bare minimum without any specific mention of travelling outside the Milky Way to avoid spoilers or killing tension.

 

/thread, pretty much. But, around we go.

[Former_Fiend]

/thread, pretty much. But, around we go.

 

One day we're going to get the boulder to the top of this hill.

[Monica21]

One day we're going to get the boulder to the top of this hill.

 

Sisyphus? Is that you?

[AlanC9]

Reaper drive core's are said to "break the knows laws of physics" that would mean that they'll have to understand how it works in the first place before they can even start making one.

This is simply false. A machine will work even if you don't understand why it works, as long as you assemble it correctly.