588 réponses à ce sujet

[Bronze65]

Firstly, IT theory is redundant.

 

Secondly, it isn't. I mean, I'm as big a fan and supporter of the Death of the Author thesis as the next guy, but that ship has sailed.

 

Well I appreciate your opinion. I disagree.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The leviathan's pretty much tell you what their mandate is and it was a very broad one, they also confirm that the catalysis is going exactly as it was instructed. So it very obvious that the only restrictions that exist are physical ones not programming ones.

As much as I would like to pick apart your interpretation of Leviathan, I'm never playing that game again, so I'll just have to accept that I don't know what'sin there.

And no, I am not willing to simply trust the account of others.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Secondly, it isn't. I mean, I'm as big a fan and supporter of the Death of the Author thesis as the next guy, but that ship has sailed.

Why? Nothing in-game contradicts Indoctination Theory.

I also think IT makes the War Assets make more sense than they otherwise do.

[Former_Fiend]

Why? Nothing in-game contradicts Indoctination Theory.

I also think IT makes the War Assets make more sense than they otherwise do.

 

I refuse to engage in that discussion. As frustrating as this thread is, it is a step up from IT in terms of the money I'll save on headache medicine if this thread descends into that discussion.

[GalacticWolf5]

Why? Nothing in-game contradicts Indoctination Theory.

 

Uhm, yes actually.

 

- The Leviathans.

 

- Vendetta.

 

- The Intelligence's itself.

 

- The epilogue slides.

 

- Shepard waking up on the Citadel during the breath scene.

[LinksOcarina]

Uhm, yes actually.

 

- The Leviathans.

 

- Vendetta.

 

- The Intelligence's itself.

 

- The epilogue slides.

 

- Shepard waking up on the Citadel during the breath scene.

 

And the developers.

 

They just sort of acknowledge it exists, but say its wrong. Remember what I said about writers intent..it works to a point...

[GalacticWolf5]

Well he said ''in-game'' so I said the proof we had in-game haha

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

There is also a reaper FTL drive on Rannoch. There could be enough handwavium that it doesn't get destroyed. The Turians destroyed a few capital reapers. There could be reaper FTLs recovered from them for the ark project. There could be sufficient handwavium here as well. See nothing to worry about. It's only a matter of resources and handwavium. The way to Andromeda is in the plot holes of the series. Trust me, there are enough of them.

[Killroy]

There is also a reaper FTL drive on Rannoch. There could be enough handwavium that it doesn't get destroyed. The Turians destroyed a few capital reapers. There could be reaper FTLs recovered from them for the ark project. There could be sufficient handwavium here as well. See nothing to worry about. It's only a matter of resources and handwavium. The way to Andromeda is in the plot holes of the series. Trust me, there are enough of them.

They don't need to exploit plot holes at all. The events of the trilogy as we experienced them through Shepard are not all-encompassing. We don't know everything that happens in the entire galaxy.

[Il Divo]

As much as I would like to pick apart your interpretation of Leviathan, I'm never playing that game again, so I'll just have to accept that I don't know what'sin there.

And no, I am not willing to simply trust the account of others.

 

Not that I think it would change your mind, but there are clips out there which show the ending to Leviathan (pretty much all you need to know of the whole dlc). They run about 7 minutes. ​

[Cheviot]

Not that I think it would change your mind, but there are clips out there which show the ending to Leviathan (pretty much all you need to know of the whole dlc). They run about 7 minutes. ​

What about the bit at the mine? I thought that was really good. Plus it's full of indoctrinated people.  He'll bloody love that!

[LinksOcarina]

Well he said ''in-game'' so I said the proof we had in-game haha

 

True, but that is one of the cases where the devs more or less are directly telling people what it's not. It's kind of like how Tolkien said that Lord of the Rings is not allegorical to World War 2.

 

People can analyze it as such, but they would be wrong, or missing the point in that sense. 

[Il Divo]

What about the bit at the mine? I thought that was really good. Plus it's full of indoctrinated people.  He'll bloody love that!

 

To clarify, I meant in regard to the argument they were having regarding the Catalyst. I actually thought Leviathan overall was a pretty good dlc. ​

[themikefest]

There is also a reaper FTL drive on Rannoch. There could be enough handwavium that it doesn't get destroyed. The Turians destroyed a few capital reapers. There could be reaper FTLs recovered from them for the ark project. There could be sufficient handwavium here as well. See nothing to worry about. It's only a matter of resources and handwavium. The way to Andromeda is in the plot holes of the series. Trust me, there are enough of them.

There's your answer of how folks get to Andromeda. They repair a destroyed capital ship. Load it up with whoever and drive off into the wild blue yonder towards Andromeda

[AlanC9]

It's easy to handwave something away. Having it make any kind of sense in the context of the setting is a lot harder. In fact, the example you just gave makes for a good argument why no one would bother researching this tech to begin with, since the relays are already more than they need.

Right. That's why nobody researched such a drive until they realized that might be time to run for it.

Except such a "totally not a retcon" makes Reaper harvest make even less sense than they do now. Especially if it's achievable at the tech level of the current cycle. Any race can escape them simply by leaving the galaxy. Why the hell did the Protheans waste all that time building a bunker on Eden Prime?

I'll sign on with this, though. Honestly, I'm on your side here, since I think it would be a serious mistake to let the Citadel races be able to build more than the one ship.

[dreamgazer]

I'm digging the idea of a retrofitted Collector ship for the trip to Andromeda.

[The Night Haunter]

Alternately a theory I haven't seen anywhere yet:

 

A group of refugees flee the Reapers, but not out of the galaxy. Instead they head to a remote planet far away from any Relay. According to the previous cycle it took 100 years for the reapers to reach every world, so it is far from unreasonable that a group could hide for a couple years (or decades) on a remote world. There they realize they need to flee further and spend a decade or two researching extra-galactic transportation with the benefit of some reaper tech (easily picked up during a battle pre-flight) and then head off to Andromeda.

 

As for any 'ending' to ME3, well they were so far away from a relay that they had no idea what was going on in the rest of the galaxy so the ending choice doesn't matter.

 

 

 

 

Now, do I think that is the story BW is going with? No. But it is a 5 minute example of how MEA could have a reasonable plot without cannonizing an ending. Since that took me, a non-game-writer, 5 min to come up with I think it is far from unreasonable that BW writers could do much, much better in the year+ they've had. These threads are getting old, get over the fact that it is in Andromeda and it will (very likely) completely ignore ME3 choices. The ship has sailed, the sooner you realize that the happier you'll be. We are much better off now then if BW made some futile attempt to make something from the wreckage of ME3's endings.

[AlanC9]

 
As for any 'ending' to ME3, well they were so far away from a relay that they had no idea what was going on in the rest of the galaxy so the ending choice doesn't matter.

Do any such points exist within the galaxy? That would mean bad relay network design.

[Drone223]

As much as I would like to pick apart your interpretation of Leviathan, I'm never playing that game again, so I'll just have to accept that I don't know what'sin there.

And no, I am not willing to simply trust the account of others.

If the leviathans were more specific with the mandate they wouldn't just say "preserve all life" they would've given more detail but they didn't. The program that the catalyst was given was broad and they said nothing about limitations.

[Han Shot First]

If the technology can't be applied to ships then it can't be applied to an ark since they've yet to integrate the into regular ships. If it can't work on regular ships than an ark wouldn't fair much better.

 

 

It is never said in game that it can't be applied to ships. It is only said that it thus far only space stations are equipped with it. No reason is ever given for that, so it would be well within the realm of head canon to declare that it can't be transferred to ships.

 

Both myself and Sylvius offered plausible reasons for why the discharge tech hadn't been applied to ships previously. That two random people on this forum could come up with explanations that would work, demonstrates that the writers have plenty of room there to have the tech applied to ships without needing to retcon any previous lore.

 

 

Even fiction needs limitations of what can and can't be done otherwise the lore ends up contradicting itself too often and people can't suspend their disbelief.

 

 

Indeed, but they have plenty of room there to craft a plausible story that doesn't run afoul of previous lore. The writers have multiple options to get the Milky Way colonists to Andromeda without contrivances or retcons. Multiple people have offered up plausible ways the writers could get the colonists to Andromeda, both in this thread and prior discussions, without either. 

 

An ark using reverse engineered Reaper tech would hardly be the most unbelievable or far-fetched aspect of the series. 

 

 

 

A thanix cannon is much simpler than a reaper drive core and reaper's can still indoctrinate even after their killed so its easier said than done.

 

Robots exist in the Mass Effect universe and could be used to reverse engineer Reaper technology. In fact it has already been done within the game universe. Shepard used drones (via the Shadow Broker terminal) to get a tech upgrade from one of the destroyed Reapers in Mass Effect 3. We don't know how the Thanix weapons were developed, but presumably that would have been the method as well, particularly since the Council was no longer ignorant of the indoctrination risk.

[GalacticWolf5]

I'm digging the idea of a retrofitted Collector ship for the trip to Andromeda.

 

Yeah I can see it too, it would be pretty nice!

Spoiler

[Drone223]

It is never said in game that it can't be applied to ships. It is only said that it thus far only space stations are equipped with it. No reason is ever given for that, so it would be well within the realm of head canon to declare that it can't be transferred to ships.

 

Both myself and Sylvius offered plausible reasons for why the discharge tech hadn't been applied to ships previously. That two random people on this forum could come up with explanations that would work, demonstrates that the writers have plenty of room there to have the tech applied to ships without needing to retcon any previous lore.

 

There has been more than enough of time to implement the technology to make it practical especially with the reaper's since they've been around for billions of years to make it possible. If the reaper's can't implement it in a practical way it off then why should this cycle?

 

 

Indeed, but they have plenty of room there to craft a plausible story that doesn't run afoul of previous lore. The writers have multiple options to get the Milky Way colonists to Andromeda without contrivances or retcons. Multiple people have offered up plausible ways the writers could get the colonists to Andromeda, both in this thread and prior discussions, without either. 

 

An ark using reverse engineered Reaper tech would hardly be the most unbelievable or far-fetched aspect of the series.

 

I fail to see how, first they have to understand how the reaper drive core works, build the damn thing and make sure it doesn't blow up in their face and then build a ship capable of traveling centuries in FTL and gather the resources and numbers needed to establish a colony all in the span of a few months during a galactic war that is staring a lot of resources in another large scale project. With all that put together the whole concept is extremely contrived and poorly implemented and that's not going into the fact as to why previous cycles never attempted this and yet this cycle manged to do it in a few months its just ridiculous.

 

 

Robots exist in the Mass Effect universe and could be used to reverse engineer Reaper technology. In fact it has already been done within the game universe. Shepard used drones (via the Shadow Broker terminal) to get a tech upgrade from one of the destroyed Reapers in Mass Effect 3. We don't know how the Thanix weapons were developed, but presumably that would have been the method as well, particularly since the Council was no longer ignorant of the indoctrination risk.

 

Its most likely easier to do that with a small fragment than a massive drive core and making sure the shielding is strong enough to prevent indoctrination and keeping it running is going to be a challenge in of itself. 

[FKA_Servo]

I think it's clear that no matter how they send us to Andromeda, Drone223 is going to be upset. Frankly, I'm ok with that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

- Shepard waking up on the Citadel during the breath scene.

Doesn't IT hold that Destroy is real and the others are hallucinations?

[Han Shot First]

There has been more than enough of time to implement the technology to make it practical especially with the reaper's since they've been around for billions of years to make it possible. If the reaper's can't implement it in a practical way it off then why should this cycle?

 

 

Again, you're assuming that it can't be done. We don't know why it wasn't done. Anything beyond that is purely within the realm of speculation. I'm doing a lot of speculation of my own here of course, but I try to use weasel words like 'maybe,' 'probably,' 'presumably' whenever possible, to make that clear. Stating that it can't be done, without the use of similar words, implies a degree of certainty that none of us has since there is a lack of information both within the lore and about the plot of Andromeda.

 

It could just boil down to cost, or as was also suggested, size. Perhaps the facilities for discharging are too large to practical for anything other than a space station.  Either one would not be an issue for an ark project on which the survival of entire species might rely.

 

 

 

I fail to see how, first they have to understand how the reaper drive core works, build the damn thing and make sure it doesn't blow up in their face and then build a ship capable of traveling centuries in FTL and gather the resources and numbers needed to establish a colony all in the span of a few months during a galactic war that is staring a lot of resources in another large scale project. With all that put together the whole concept is extremely contrived and poorly implemented and that's not going into the fact as to why previous cycles never attempted this and yet this cycle manged to do it in a few months its just ridiculous.

 

Reaper drive cores aren't understood only because the Council species, for obvious reasons, hadn't had the opportunity to poke around inside a Reaper and study its drive core. There is an element of mystery because their knowledge is limited to only what they can observe from outside a Reaper, or in studying the likely incomplete remains of Sovereign. Multiple Reapers being destroyed and left largely intact could change that, not to mention the fact the Batarians have been studying a Reaper for twenty years, and all Reaper tech was invented by the Leviathans, who end up an ally of sorts.

 

We also don't know what the Council's war budget was, what percentage of the war budget the Crucible project occupied or whether or not that war budget could accommodate an ark project. We also don't know what an ark project would cost in terms of funding, manpower, man-hours, or other resources. We don't know the scale of the ark is or how many colonists and how many tons of supplies or equipment it would be transporting. The series' lore does not get into bean counting thankfully. That would probably even put accountants to sleep. The benefit of that lack of information however is that there is plenty of room for the writers to make an ark project into almost whatever they want and still have it be a plausible Reaper War project.

 

It is firmly within the realm of head canon to declare, "the Council can't afford it" or "there isn't enough time to build it."