As long as they didn't put it in the actual game, they could change their mind without need of a retcon.And the developers.
Doesn't IT hold that Destroy is real and the others are hallucinations?
Doesn't IT hold that the Citadel/Decision Chamber ''hallucination'' scenes take place while Shepard is uncouscious after getting hit by Harbinger's beam on Earth? Wouldn't make much sense for him to be uncouscious on Earth but wake up in the exploded Citadel, would it?
The ME3 I played (no story DLC, no EC) doesn't contradict it.
The ME3 you played is therefore incomplete. And yes it does still contradict IT because Vendetta is still there, the Intelligence is still there and the breath scene is also there.
Again, you're assuming that it can't be done. We don't know why it wasn't done. Anything beyond that is purely within the realm of speculation. I'm doing a lot of speculation of my own here of course, but I try to use weasel words like 'maybe,' 'probably,' 'presumably' whenever possible, to make that clear. Stating that it can't be done, without the use of similar words, implies a degree of certainty that none of us has since there is a lack of information both within the lore and about the plot of Andromeda.
It could just boil down to cost, or as was also suggested, size. Perhaps the facilities for discharging are too large to practical for anything other than a space station. Either one would not be an issue for an ark project on which the survival of entire species might rely.
The fact that this cycle was able to do it in such a short time span yet past cycle and the reaper's weren't able to do it only serves to make the whole thing contrived. Its well known that past cycle's and the reaper's are subject to the same technological limitations as this cycle so this cycle should be treated no differently than the other ones.
Reaper drive cores aren't understood only because the Council species, for obvious reasons, hadn't had the opportunity to poke around inside a Reaper and study its drive core. There is an element of mystery because their knowledge is limited to only what they can observe from outside a Reaper, or in studying the likely incomplete remains of Sovereign. Multiple Reapers being destroyed and left largely intact could change that, not to mention the fact the Batarians have been studying a Reaper for twenty years, and all Reaper tech was invented by the Leviathans, who end up an ally of sorts.
If they want to reverse engineer one they first have to understand how the thing works in the first place and if they can't fully understand how it works then they can't reverse engineer it. Unlike the crucible they have no blueprints as to how to build one so they'll have to make one from scratch which will make the process more time consuming.
The bartarians aren't one who like to share their secrets so don't expect them to share their research anytime soon especially if they are the first to the reaper's.
We also don't know what the Council's war budget was, what percentage of the war budget the Crucible project occupied or whether or not that war budget could accommodate an ark project. We also don't know what an ark project would cost in terms of funding, manpower, man-hours, or other resources. We don't know the scale of the ark is or how many colonists and how many tons of supplies or equipment it would be transporting. The series' lore does not get into bean counting thankfully. That would probably even put accountants to sleep. The benefit of that lack of information however is that there is plenty of room for the writers to make an ark project into almost whatever they want and still have it be a plausible Reaper War project.
It is firmly within the realm of head canon to declare, "the Council can't afford it" or "there isn't enough time to build it."
We know that the crucible alone is enough to bankrupt the entire galaxy and that's not even taking into account the war effort. If the crucible alone is enough to bankrupt the galaxy then there is no way the galaxy can support another large scale project like an ark ship.
Where Shepard woke up could be anywhere. It doesn't even look like the Citadel. There's concrete and rebar and ****.
Confirmed by Mike Gamble that's it the Citadel. They most likely just reused assets from the London map, Bioware does that a lot.
True, but that is one of the cases where the devs more or less are directly telling people what it's not. It's kind of like how Tolkien said that Lord of the Rings is not allegorical to World War 2.
That was different though, because there people were discussing what the story meant, not what it actually contained.
Confirmed by Mike Gamble that's it the Citadel. They most likely just reused assets from the London map, Bioware does that a lot.
If the leviathans were more specific with the mandate they wouldn't just say "preserve all life" they would've given more detail but they didn't.
Unless they were unaware of the limitation as well.
Unless they were unaware of the limitation as well.
The leviathans were the ones who made the catalyst in the first place so they' would've known about the limitations they put in place.
The fact that this cycle was able to do it in such a short time span yet past cycle and the reaper's weren't able to do it only serves to make the whole thing contrived. Its well known that past cycle's and the reaper's are subject to the same technological limitations as this cycle so this cycle should be treated no differently than the other ones.
If they want to reverse engineer one they first have to understand how the thing works in the first place and if they can't fully understand how it works then they can't reverse engineer it. Unlike the crucible they have no blueprints as to how to build one so they'll have to make one from scratch which will make the process more time consuming.
We don't know that other species never tried their own version of the ark project.
Again, the Council species don't understand Reaper drive cores only because they've never been inside a Reaper. That potentially changes during the Reaper War, and we don't know what role (if any) either the Leviathans or Batarians play. The Leviathans invented Reaper tech and the Batarians had twenty years to poke around the Leviathan of Dis.
We also don't know how often the ship would need to refuel. Dark space is in fact is a bit of a misnomer, as the space between galaxies is littered with stars. In fact as many half of all stars in the universe may lie between galaxies rather than within them. Since we don't know how often an ark would need to refuel, the writers could have an ark zig-zag between these intergalactic stars on its way to Andromeda, using the stars themselves for energy or topping off on orbiting gas giants.
In short, there's no reason why the writers wouldn't be able to get Milky Way colonists to Andromeda without resorting to retcons or contrivances. It's entirely possible to craft a reasonable enough explanation using the series own lore.
The bartarians aren't one who like to share their secrets so don't expect them to share their research anytime soon especially if they are the first to the reaper's.
The Reaper War is a little late to be holding on to secrets, particularly in the wake of the Batarian Hegemony's demise. A Batarian scientist or military or government official turning refugee and delivering information to the Council would be far from implausible, particularly when remnants of the Batarian fleet are part of the galactic alliance.
We know that the crucible alone is enough to bankrupt the entire galaxy and that's not even taking into account the war effort. If the crucible alone is enough to bankrupt the galaxy then there is no way the galaxy can support another large scale project like an ark ship.
We don't know that.
There is a Volus report on the galactic economy that Shepard can access from the Spectre terminal, but it never states that the Crucible alone was bankrupting the galaxy. It states that if the war continues along current projections that the galactic economy would go belly up within the year. It was referring to the entire economy and not a single slice of the Council's war budget.
Also if Bioware makes a Reaper War ark project the means of getting to Andromeda (not guaranteed, but a safe bet), that Volus report is obviously including the Ark project as part of its projections.
Not that I think it would change your mind, but there are clips out there which show the ending to Leviathan (pretty much all you need to know of the whole dlc). They run about 7 minutes.
Okay, I watched it.
I expected to ask why people took the statements contained therein as necessarily true, but I don't even need to question the truth of what was learned there. Nothing there gives us any reason to believe that any of these beings ever even considered the existence of other galaxies, let alone did something relevant regarding them.
As long as they didn't put it in the actual game, they could change their mind without need of a retcon.
Personally, since I don't derive value from cross-game consistency (save imports are bad), I'm content to use IT to interpret ME3 no matter what Andromeda does.
The ME3 I played (no story DLC, no EC) doesn't contradict it.
Which is fine, I guess.
My original point was that anyone who expects Bioware to actually incorporate the IT theory as canon at this point is kidding themselves. Could they change their minds? Sure, possibly. They won't, but they could.
But anyone who wants to go on headcanoning it, go right ahead. Just don't expect anyone else to consider it valid.
The leviathans were the ones who made the catalyst in the first place so they' would've known about the limitations they put in place.
You've never written a computer program, have you?
They talk extensively about the galaxy - this one. What reason could you possibly have to extrapolate beyond that?
The leviathans were the ones who made the catalyst in the first place so they' would've known about the limitations they put in place.
The leviathans were the ones who made the catalyst in the first place so they' would've known about the limitations they put in place.
That's like saying I understand the working mechanics of the Large Hadron Collider because humans built it.
Spoiler alert: I don't, in any but the vaguest sense.
Doesn't IT hold that the Citadel/Decision Chamber ''hallucination'' scenes take place while Shepard is uncouscious after getting hit by Harbinger's beam on Earth? Wouldn't make much sense for him to be uncouscious on Earth but wake up in the exploded Citadel, would it?
The great thing about theories is that they can be adjusted to suit a growing body of evidence.
I thought the hallucination was the Catalyst apparition, trying to convince you not to Destroy . And it makes sense that the other options only become available with higher War Assets because that means you've spent more time being exposed to the Reapers.
The ME3 you played is therefore incomplete. And yes it does still contradict IT because Vendetta is still there, the Intelligence is still there and the breath scene is also there.
I just watched Leviathan. It says nothing relevant.
How does the breath scene contradict IT? I thought it only occurred after Destroy.
How do Vendetta or Intelligence contradict IT?
Those Leviathans didn't make it. Those Leviathans are millions of years removed from the creation of the catalyst. And the Reapers'/Catalyst's mandate isn't even adhered to as explained. They don't preserve life, they just show up on a cycle and turn some species into goo. That's not preserving life. If they were actually interested in preserving life they would be constantly monitoring the galaxy to save races/species from extinction events, natural disasters, wars, etc. They only seem to care about moderately advanced, intelligent races that may or may not create synthetic life.
That's right. Even their definition of "preserve" is suspect.
So a vague world like "all" should cause all sorts of trouble.
We don't know that other species never tried their own version of the ark project.
Again, the Council species don't understand Reaper drive cores only because they've never been inside a Reaper. That potentially changes during the Reaper War, and we don't know what role (if any) either the Leviathans or Batarians play. The Leviathans invented Reaper tech and the Batarians had twenty years to poke around the Leviathan of Dis.
Gathering remains from reapers during a reaper war is easier said than done especially if there are reapers present. Then there's the even if the council does get their hands on a reaper drive core they'll have to understand how the it works before they can do anything they want with it and its clearly something that can't be done over night.
We also don't know how often the ship would need to refuel. Dark space is in fact is a bit of a misnomer, as the space between galaxies is littered with stars. In fact as many half of all stars in the universe may lie between galaxies rather than within them. Since we don't know how often an ark would need to refuel, the writers could have an ark zig-zag between these intergalactic stars on its way to Andromeda, using the stars themselves for energy or topping off on orbiting gas giants.
Given the vastness of dark space and the distance they have to cover the chances of encounter a celestial object in dark space is most likely going to be close to none. They also can't refuel and resupply in dark space so when they have to make the journey with what they got one minor mistake and the whole thing will go belly up.
In short, there's no reason why the writers wouldn't be able to get Milky Way colonists to Andromeda without resorting to retcons or contrivances. It's entirely possible to craft a reasonable enough explanation using the series own lore.
They
The Reaper War is a little late to be holding on to secrets, particularly in the wake of the Batarian Hegemony's demise. A Batarian scientist or military or government official turning refugee and delivering information to the Council would be far from implausible, particularly when remnants of the Batarian fleet are part of the galactic alliance.
The batarian Hegemony were the first to be attacked by the reaper's and they lost a lot of their infrastructure when they were attack what little the batarians is going to be extremely limited.
We don't know that.
There is a Volus report on the galactic economy that Shepard can access from the Spectre terminal, but it never states that the Crucible alone was bankrupting the galaxy. It states that if the war continues along current projections that the galactic economy would go belly up within the year. It was referring to the entire economy and not a single slice of the Council's war budget.
Also if Bioware makes a Reaper War ark project the means of getting to Andromeda (not guaranteed, but a safe bet), that Volus report is obviously including the Ark project as part of its projections.
"What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers."
That gives a good indication as too how demanding the crucible project is, and ark ship wouldn't exactly be part of the war effort since it'd be a large scale project in its own right as it does nothing to help further the war effort itself.
"What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers."
That gives a good indication as too how demanding the crucible project is, and ark ship wouldn't exactly be part of the war effort since it'd be a large scale project in its own right as it does nothing to help further the war effort itself.
I thought the hallucination was the Catalyst apparition, trying to convince you not to Destroy.
And yet the Catalyst also doesn't want you to pick Control...
And it makes sense that the other options only become available with higher War Assets because that means you've spent more time being exposed to the Reapers.
Wrong, it's possible to only be able to pick Control. If you keep the Collector base in ME2 and have less than 1749 EMS, only Control is available. If you destroyed the Collector base and have less than 749 EMS, only Destroy is available.
I just watched Leviathan. It says nothing relevant.
How does the breath scene contradict IT? I thought it only occurred after Destroy.
How do Vendetta or Intelligence contradict IT?
Really? Leviathan pretty much explain how and why the Catalyst was created. How is this not relevant?
It does only happen in Destroy, but it happens on the Citadel. IT says that Shepard is on Earth during the whole Citadel/Decision Chamber thing, yet he wakes up on the destroyed Citadel... uhmm weird... almost like the whole thing wasn't an hallucination.
Vendetta can detect indoctrination, Shepard saw it a couple hours before getting in the Citadel. The AI would've detected it.
The Intelligence says that indoctrinated people can't take control of the Reapers. Shepard can and is therfore not indoctrinated.
"Large" means what, exactly? 1% of the Crucible's costs? 5%?That gives a good indication as too how demanding the crucible project is, and ark ship wouldn't exactly be part of the war effort since it'd be a large scale project in its own right as it does nothing to help further the war effort itself.
You've never written a computer program, have you?
Actually I have, I'm doing a programming course right now.
They talk extensively about the galaxy - this one. What reason could you possibly have to extrapolate beyond that?
Because when they programmed the catalyst to it was "preserve all life" at no point did it indicate a particular galaxy.
Those Leviathans didn't make it. Those Leviathans are millions of years removed from the creation of the catalyst. And the Reapers'/Catalyst's mandate isn't even adhered to as explained. They don't preserve life, they just show up on a cycle and turn some species into goo. That's not preserving life. If they were actually interested in preserving life they would be constantly monitoring the galaxy to save races/species from extinction events, natural disasters, wars, etc. They only seem to care about moderately advanced, intelligent races that may or may not create synthetic life.
The leviathans did create the catalyst they said themselves and they even acknowledge that its doing what they programmed to do.
"There was no mistake, it still serves its purpose"
Its just that when they told it to "preserve all life" they didn't define how it should carry out since its a very broad mandate.
That's like saying I understand the working mechanics of the Large Hadron Collider because humans built it.
Spoiler alert: I don't, in any but the vaguest sense.
They created the catalyst and they gave it no limitations, if it did have limitations then it might have turned on it creators.
That's right. Even their definition of "preserve" is suspect.
So a vague world like "all" should cause all sorts of trouble.
That mandate that was given was extremely board and could be interpreted in a number of ways the methods they are using to carry out that mandate make it quite obvious.
A Reaper is essentially "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies." Each Reaper contains the memories and knowledge of the species that was used to make it. The ''goo'' is used to build the actual Reaper. So yeah, they actual preserve them.
The leviathans did create the catalyst they said themselves and they even acknowledge that its doing what they programmed to do.
A Reaper is essentially "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies." Each Reaper contains the memories and knowledge of the species that was used to make it. The ''goo'' is used to build the actual Reaper. So yeah, they actual preserve them.
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