588 réponses à ce sujet

[Drone223]

Think about this: discharging static from FTL is only talked for about 3 seconds in optional dialog in 1 game.
All of this circular discussion with an illogical person who will never change his mind over something that is not at all important to the games. The Normandy holding its static inside the ship gets about 27x more "screen time."

Except the Normandy isn't traveling non-stop in FTL for several centuries it most uses the relay's to travel between star clusters. Discussing consistency of the lore is far from being unimportant or illogical.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And yet the Catalyst also doesn't want you to pick Control...


Wrong, it's possible to only be able to pick Control. If you keep the Collector base in ME2 and have less than 1749 EMS, only Control is available. If you destroyed the Collector base and have less than 749 EMS, only Destroy is available.

Well that's just dumb. It's a good argument against IT, but how does that make any sense within the setting. You have this asset, and thus you can't choose Destroy?

The reason I liked IT was because it let the War Assets make sense. Because otherwise they just don't.

Now you've shown that they don't regardless. This game is worse than I thought.

It does only happen in Destroy, but it happens on the Citadel. IT says that Shepard is on Earth during the whole Citadel/Decision Chamber thing, yet he wakes up on the destroyed Citadel... uhmm weird... almost like the whole thing wasn't an hallucination.

I figured that it happened on the Citadel, and that only the manifestation of the Intelligence and the results of his non-Destroy choices were hallucinations.

Vendetta can detect indoctrination, Shepard saw it a couple hours before getting in the Citadel. The AI would've detected it.

Good point. That would need to be explained with earlier hallucination events.

The Intelligence says that indoctrinated people can't take control of the Reapers. Shepard can and is therfore not indoctrinated.

The Intelligence is part of the hallucination. Of course it would want Shepard to think that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Because when they programmed the catalyst to it was "preserve all life" at no point did it indicate a particular galaxy.

As I've explained at length, we don't know that.

That mandate that was given was extremely board and could be interpreted in a number of ways the methods they are using to carry out that mandate make it quite obvious.

Quite obvious is not the same as guaranteed, which should be your standard here.

[Stazro]

Well that's just dumb. It's a good argument against IT, but how does that make any sense within the setting. You have this asset, and thus you can't choose Destroy?

The reason I liked IT was because it let the War Assets make sense. Because otherwise they just don't.

Now you've shown that they don't regardless. This game is worse than I thought.

 

The reasoning why war assets make a difference is this: The stronger your forces are, the less damage the crucible takes in the battle and if it takes less damage, more intensive options become available (the catalyst comments on the state of the crucible, depending on the amount of your war assets) [Edit]and whatever choice you make there's less collateral damage[/edit].

 

I would guess that having the reaper brain intact means that you are better prepared to take control over them than, making it the "most basic" solution. I know, it's not satisfying, but it's a start, right?

 

Personally, I've always thought that the war assets make the least sense in context of IT. Why should the size of your fleet have an impact on how easily you are indoctrinated? Specifically, why would the reapers only be able to offer the most... let's call it: seductive choice if their enemy is strongest?

[Il Divo]

Except the Normandy isn't traveling non-stop in FTL for several centuries it most uses the relay's to travel between star clusters. Discussing consistency of the lore is far from being unimportant or illogical.

 

 Then we should probably start with the nature of space battles themselves, which have absolutely no relevance to how the Codex describes them. Wanting consistent lore isn't exactly a crime. But I doubt Bioware is going to throw their ME:A plans in the garbage because of a brief codex entry which is never  used to any extent even in ME1. ​

[Il Divo]

"Large" means what, exactly? 1% of the Crucible's costs? 5%?

 

Exactly. Trying to put an articulate limit on the Ark's cost, when the premise is "we're all gonna die" doesn't really work. The cost will be whatever Bioware wants them to be. Of course, all this in the context of ME3 where apparently Shepard has enough time to lay back and chill out for the Citadel dlc. ​

[Innocent Bystander]

There are plenty of reasons to equip such technology first it allows to travel more distances without having to worry about building up discharge thus making exploration and searching for resources a lot easier and it circumnavigates the laws regarding activating in active relay's.

Who said there aren't some explorer class vessels already equiped with this technology? There could be thousands of them, and we wouldn't know, because it wasn't necessary to mention them in the trilogy.

[Mcfly616]

And what if we are leaping the protheans?

 Then it requires a leap of logic and a stretch in believability for the player. Usually there's a step by step progression in technological development. After all, we didn't just go from driving cars to launching astronauts into space. The invention of the airplane was in between.

 

 

So here we are with the premise of ME:A, where we can't even efficiently get around our own galaxy without the mass relays and yet somehow we're about to go all the way to another galaxy. 

 

It's as if someone went from crawling to becoming a world class sprinter without ever learning how to walk in between. 

[Linkenski]

Practically, any Mass Effect game that places itself within Mass Effect 2's canon is "on shaky ground"

[Sylvius the Mad]

Im just saying what we know from the game. We don't fully know how the harvesting process works, so I can't tell you how the minds are uploaded.

You can't even tell that the minds are uploaded.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't check you on that last. I can plot routes through the EMS space where Shepards get different ending options with the same amount of Reaper contact. Plus, as noted sbove, the low-EMS Control case.

At this point, I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that the game doesn't make sense.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The reasoning why war assets make a difference is this: The stronger your forces are, the less damage the crucible takes in the battle and if it takes less damage, more intensive options become available (the catalyst comments on the state of the crucible, depending on the amount of your war assets) [Edit]and whatever choice you make there's less collateral damage[/edit].

I would guess that having the reaper brain intact means that you are better prepared to take control over them than, making it the "most basic" solution. I know, it's not satisfying, but it's a start, right?

Personally, I've always thought that the war assets make the least sense in context of IT. Why should the size of your fleet have an impact on how easily you are indoctrinated? Specifically, why would the reapers only be able to offer the most... let's call it: seductive choice if their enemy is strongest?

It's not the size of the fleet per se, but the time you spent flying around the galaxy building it.

If TIM was indoctrinated during ME2, he could have put Reaper tech in your implants or your ship, and as you build War Assets you're exposed to them for longer.

Also, I should point out, I don't accept the outcomes shown in the final cinematic because Shepard isn't there to witness them, so there's no reason for them to be shown to us.

[Iakus]

 

They talk extensively about the galaxy - this one.  What reason could you possibly have to extrapolate beyond that?

Because we already saw the Reapers go far beyond their programming in turning on the Leviathans.  They twisted the concept of "preserving" organic life far beyond the intentions of their creators.

 

In short, they have ignored the concept of implied limits and have taken things to their (il)logical extreme as a matter of course

[Iakus]

"Large" means what, exactly? 1% of the Crucible's costs? 5%?

Everything who knows which end of a hammer to hold is being thrown at the Crucible Project from the best salarian scientists to Omega's eezo reserves to Conrad Verner's doctoral thesis.  And is being called the galaxy's only hope of defeating the Reapers

 

Pretty much any percentage would hamper the project.

[Stazro]

It's not the size of the fleet per se, but the time you spent flying around the galaxy building it.

If TIM was indoctrinated during ME2, he could have put Reaper tech in your implants or your ship, and as you build War Assets you're exposed to them for longer.

 

The only measurement of time is the player's progress along the main quest. Wether you've done none of the non-essential missions or all of them before going back to earth, the same time has passed in universe. That's the only way to explain why time spend on other stuff never makes a difference to the initial situation of the following main mission.

 

Besides, the amount of war assets doesn't only depend on how many missions you did, but also on which decisions you made. There's no difference in time spend wether I chose the high reward blue/red option or the low reward grey one, but it can make a difference in passing a threshold.

 

Not to forget, there is really nothing conclusive about the assumption that Shep is being influenced by his implants and/or ship.

 

Also, I should point out, I don't accept the outcomes shown in the final cinematic because Shepard isn't there to witness them, so there's no reason for them to be shown to us.

 

 

I'm not sure I understand. You'd prefer a game to just go to credits instead of offering resolution, just because the protagonist dies?

[Iakus]

So give a number, already. Stop waffling and say what percentage of the Crucible resources you think the ark project would have to take.

Why is an exact number so vital?

 

The Crucible is the galaxy's only shot at stopping the Reapers:  THEY CAN'T BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY!!! OH NOESSSS!!!!

 

So diverting anything from the Crucible Project is suicidally stupid.  Especially on a roll of the dice in getting a few refugees out of the galaxy and into who-knows-what other danger.

[Iakus]

As I've explained at length, we don't know that.
Quite obvious is not the same as guaranteed, which should be your standard here.

We do know that.  Both from EC and Leviathan.

 

Is the stuff designed to add "clarity and closure" to the game now going to be ignored or made erroneous because said explanations hurt the possibility of future games?

 

At this point, I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that the game doesn't make sense.

Hey, if the trilogy was rendered noncanon and becames "Mass Effect Legends" like the Star Wars EU, I'd say fine, fresh start, new rules.

 

But they don't seem to be doing that, because "player choice is important to us"

 

Funny how that comes up when defending keeping their endings, rather than when the backlash first happened 

[Killroy]

You know in horror movies where the killer is unstoppable and early on the would-be victims are always forced to choose between fighting or running? The people who run always seem to have better odds.
Why does it make ANY sense to devote literally every resource in the galaxy to some harebrained machine project that may do nothing or even kill us before the Reapers get a chance?
Even if you run away from the killer and into the creepy old house by the graveyard you're still better off than trying to beat up the unstoppable killer.

[Iakus]

You know in horror movies where the killer is unstoppable and early on the would-be victims are always forced to choose between fighting or running? The people who run always seem to have better odds.
Why does it make ANY sense to devote literally every resource in the galaxy to some harebrained machine project that may do nothing or even kill us before the Reapers get a chance?
Even if you run away from the killer and into the creepy old house by the graveyard you're still better off than trying to beat up the unstoppable killer.

 

Hey don't look at me, it's ME3 that established the magic wand was the galaxy's only hope.

[Former_Fiend]

Why is an exact number so vital?

 

The Crucible is the galaxy's only shot at stopping the Reapers:  THEY CAN'T BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY!!! OH NOESSSS!!!!

 

So diverting anything from the Crucible Project is suicidally stupid.  Especially on a roll of the dice in getting a few refugees out of the galaxy and into who-knows-what other danger.

 

You know, I'm a spiritual man. I believe in taking some things on faith. But I don't expect the same out of others.

 

Looking at this from the perspective of someone in universe who doesn't know how the series turns out; you've got a few people who just conveniently found this deus ex machina wonder machine that can instantly defeat the Reapers once completed. Now, assuming you buy that line - I'd find it to be a hard pill to swallow, but not listening to Shepard hasn't panned out well so far, so sure, I'll listen to 'em this time - they then tell you that they have no idea how it works, there's a missing component and no one knows what it is or how to find it, and even if you do find it before the Reapers kill us all, no one knows what will happen when the trigger's pulled.

 

Oh, and the thing manipulates more than enough dark energy to kill us all, so if anything goes wrong - if it's damaged, if it's sabotaged, if someone on the team screws up and types in a one when they meant to type zero - the whole thing could blow up in our face.

 

Diverting any resources away from the Reaper War as a whole is suicidally stupid. But betting it all on this Hail Mary? I can't fault anyone for wanting to come up with a back up plan in case of the very real possibility that the whole thing falls apart. With hindsight being twenty twenty, the outsiders perspective and all we know, there is a one in four chance that the Crucible turns out to be a bust; not because of any resource issue, but because Shepard can refuse to use it and doom us all. 

 

If you honestly consider someone wanting an alternative - any alternative - to that "suicidally stupid", then I'm not entirely sure you understand what those words mean.

[AlanC9]

Why is an exact number so vital?

The Crucible is the galaxy's only shot at stopping the Reapers: THEY CAN'T BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY!!! OH NOESSSS!!!!

So diverting anything from the Crucible Project is suicidally stupid. Especially on a roll of the dice in getting a few refugees out of the galaxy and into who-knows-what other danger.

This is pretty stupid, game-theory wise. The Crucible project is not a sure thing in the first place. Diverting a few resources to a plan B produces a much better set of possible outcomes. You've got a small chance of that diversion making the difference between success and failure with the Crucible, and a much larger chance of that diversion being irrelevant, either because you win despite the diversion, or because you were never going to win anyway. If the Crucible works out you haven't lost anything with the diversion, but in the other two cases you've radically changed the outcome, from extinction to non-extinction.

Obviously, the percentages look much worse the larger the plan B resource commitment gets relative to the Crucible, as the probability of causing a Crucible failure increases. That's why the relative numbers are important. Edit: there's also an implicit assumption that avoiding extinction is of very high value; if you don't count that as being very important relative to saving the trillions currently alive, then the payouts will look different to you.

Remember, RW decision-making doesn't work like typical Bio decisions, where the all-your-eggs-in-one-basket choice always works out fine.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Because we already saw the Reapers go far beyond their programming in turning on the Leviathans. They twisted the concept of "preserving" organic life far beyond the intentions of their creators.

In short, they have ignored the concept of implied limits and have taken things to their (il)logical extreme as a matter of course

I didn't say implied, I said implicit.

Since their creators were in this galaxy, we've learned nothing relevant.

Like any good computer, they're following their programming as far as logic will take them. But without examjning the programming itself, or seeing some direct evidence of action taken toward other galaxies, we know nothing about their perception of other galaxies.

You (and others) say that any limitatikns would have been mentioned, but there's no reason to believe that. People rarely point out the specific assumptions behind what they're saying, particularly if they think those assumptions are universally shared (they might not even realize they're assumptions).

A big part of what I do here on this forum is find posts which I think rely on unspoken assumptions, and then I reply based on contrary assumptions, but I also don't point them out. My goal is to get people to recognize when they're making assumptions, and be aware that those assumptions might not be universally held.

If the Leviathans hold some relevant superstition regarding other galaxies, and they think their position is inherently obvious and every other intelligent species would obviously hold it too (and our failure to travel there might be all the evidence they would need, given their confirmation bias), why would they mention it.

It would be like talking to your boss an mentioning, every time, that you recognize the need to respect his authority to keep your job. It's true, and it's relevant to the conversation, but you never say it.

So why would Leviathan necessarily mention its assumptions?

[Il Divo]

Why is an exact number so vital?

 

The Crucible is the galaxy's only shot at stopping the Reapers:  THEY CAN'T BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY!!! OH NOESSSS!!!!

 

So diverting anything from the Crucible Project is suicidally stupid.  Especially on a roll of the dice in getting a few refugees out of the galaxy and into who-knows-what other danger.

 

Because exact numbers would tell us whether or not this project is viable, from a financial stand point.

 

If we suspect that the Crucible has a 1% chance of effectively working, but an Ark project has a 5% chance, it's not suicidally stupid to put some actual resources into a back up plan, if you're trying to ensure that someone survives.

 

As it stands, there is so much leeway in terms of the Crucible's actual cost that it comes down to whatever the numbers Bioware wants them to be, which is where the dispute over the Crucible cost enters play.

 

If we're to take the whole "resources" argument seriously, we should probably be seeing a more substantial reduction in available resources regarding Citadel dlc, sushi restaurants, parties, and clubs, etc. Quite literally, we should be mobilizing every man, woman, and child for this endeavor, instead of having people fawn over Blasto the Hanar Spectre.

[Pasquale1234]

And if we're to take the whole "resources" argument seriously, we should probably be seeing a more substantial reduction in available resources regarding Citadel dlc, parties, and clubs, etc. Quite literally, we should be mobilizing every man, woman, and child for this endeavor, instead of having people fawn over Blasto the Hanar Spectre.

That's just it - if Hackett's comments about needing everyone who can hold a hammer were meant to be taken at face value, those refugees hanging out on the Citadel should have been sent to help with the Crucible. If every scientist and engineer and every scrap of raw material in the galaxy were needed for the Crucible, then Cerberus should not have been able to build and equip fleets and armies, or do the research they were doing.

[Il Divo]

That's just it - if Hackett's comments about needing everyone who can hold a hammer were meant to be taken at face value, those refugees hanging out on the Citadel should have been sent to help with the Crucible. If every scientist and engineer and every scrap of raw material in the galaxy were needed for the Crucible, then Cerberus should not have been able to build and equip fleets and armies, or do the research they were doing.

 

Agreed. I can definitely get behind that as a plot point, in some alternate version of ME3, if Bioware had gone that route.

 

But at least in the context of what we got, given the premise of "We're all going  to die", if we have to take the Crucible seriously as this absolutely critical plan which needs every last effort made to get functioning, I don't think there's a viable way to backtrack from that and show us, for example, hang with Garrus on the Citadel or throw a massive drinking party, or just many civilians living plain normal lives, etc.

 

In short: "all in" means "all in".