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[Former_Fiend]

You know, I somehow seriously doubt that Bioware has anything but the most vague, general idea of what the galactic economy is, if that. I can't imagine that they have a chart of "the asari have this much, the volus have this much, the salarians have this much, etc", let alone any concept of where it's all going and what percentage of what is going to what project or offensive or endeavor.

 

I do not believe that they put that much thought and detail into it, because that's a lot of work in an area that none of them are experts on, and there's no real pay off because none of us are ever going to see that chart, and all it's going to do is limit your ability to tell stories and get thrown out because you don't want those limitations.

 

There is no galactic economy. There are no resources. There are no asari, there are no turians, there are no ships, there is no Citadel, and there is no Crucible. These are all fictional ideas that are exactly as viable and practical as Bioware says they are to tel lthe story Bioware wants to tell.

[Killroy]

Hey don't look at me, it's ME3 that established the magic wand was the galaxy's only hope.

 

ME3 established that the Alliance and potentially the Council decided the Crucible was the galaxy's only hope. We already know that not everyone agreed with them(Cerberus) and that there are endless resources and people in the galaxy(Cerberus) to throw at an endeavor(Cerberus).

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm not sure I understand. You'd prefer a game to just go to credits instead of offering resolution, just because the protagonist dies?

Yes. Nothing that happens after the protagonist's death is relevant.

Otherwise we're using the Aristotelian definition of happiness, and we do not want to do that.

[Former_Fiend]

Agreed. I can definitely get behind that as a plot point, in some alternate version of ME3.

But at least in the context of what we got, given the premise of "We're all going  to die", if we have to take the Crucible seriously as this absolutely critical plan which needs every last effort made to get functioning, I don't think there's a viable way to backtrack from that and show us, for example, hang with Garrus on the Citadel or throw a massive drinking party, or just many civilians living plain normal lives, etc.

 

In short: "all in" means "all in".

 

It was certainly the intention of the ME3 writing staff to get that across that this is the one hope, all or nothing. Especially when you had the one survival alternative - Sanctuary - turn out to be a massive trap.

 

But going back to a post I made a few pages ago, that's more about establishing tone than it is conveying reality. Bioware crafted this story where Shepard was trying to complete the Cruicible because Shepard believed it was the only hope to save the Galaxy. They didn't want to present any alternatives then because they didn't want the players saying "Why can't we latch on to that, instead? Sounds more reasonable." They want the player as invested as Shepard is. 

[Iakus]

ME3 established that the Alliance and potentially the Council decided the Crucible was the galaxy's only hope. We already know that not everyone agreed with them(Cerberus) and that there are endless resources and people in the galaxy(Cerberus) to throw at an endeavor(Cerberus).

And Cerberus failed.

 

And the batarians failed.

 

And the asari couldn't go it alone after all

 

And if Shepard goes "frak you" to using the Crucible, rocks fall, everyone dies.

 

The Crucible is in fact, the galaxy's only hope.  A detail pounded into our skulls throughout the game.

 

But wait, there's a backup plan to "our only hope" now? 

[Killroy]

And Cerberus failed.
And the batarians failed.
And the asari couldn't go it alone after all
And if Shepard goes "frak you" to using the Crucible, rocks fall, everyone dies.

Entirely irrelevant. The writers decide what works out and what doesn't. If they decide to make a secret Ark project work out then it works out.
 

The Crucible is in fact, the galaxy's only hope.  A detail pounded into our skulls throughout the game.
But wait, there's a backup plan to "our only hope" now? 

So everyone involved with the Crucible is omniscient? They didn't know what Cerberus was up to so why should they know about a secret Ark?

Why are you being willfully obtuse? Has Drone indoctrinated you?

[Iakus]

This is pretty stupid, game-theory wise. The Crucible project is not a sure thing in the first place. Diverting a few resources to a plan B produces a much better set of possible outcomes. You've got a small chance of that diversion making the difference between success and failure with the Crucible, and a much larger chance of that diversion being irrelevant, either because you win despite the diversion, or because you were never going to win anyway. If the Crucible works out you haven't lost anything with the diversion, but in the other two cases you've radically changed the outcome, from extinction to non-extinction.

Obviously, the percentages look much worse the larger the plan B resource commitment gets relative to the Crucible, as the probability of causing a Crucible failure increases. That's why the relative numbers are important. Edit: there's also an implicit assumption that avoiding extinction is of very high value; if you don't count that as being very important relative to saving the trillions currently alive, then the payouts will look different to you.

Remember, RW decision-making doesn't work like typical Bio decisions, where the all-your-eggs-in-one-basket choice always works out fine.

No, now you have two miracle projects, neither of which is guaranteed to work, splitting resources that are dwindling fast as the Reapers trash the galaxy and kill all your guys.

 

 

Because exact numbers would tell us whether or not this project is viable, from a financial stand point.

 

If we suspect that the Crucible has a 1% chance of effectively working, but an Ark project has a 5% chance, it's not suicidally stupid to put some actual resources into a back up plan, if you're trying to ensure that someone survives.

 

As it stands, there is so much leeway in terms of the Crucible's actual cost that it comes down to whatever the numbers Bioware wants them to be, which is where the dispute over the Crucible cost enters play.

 

If we're to take the whole "resources" argument seriously, we should probably be seeing a more substantial reduction in available resources regarding Citadel dlc, sushi restaurants, parties, and clubs, etc. Quite literally, we should be mobilizing every man, woman, and child for this endeavor, instead of having people fawn over Blasto the Hanar Spectre.

Exact numbers about fictional products in a fictional economy?  What would it prove?  What would these numbers actually mean? 

 

What we do have is:

 

Genocidal war with millions of people dying every day

Massive project straining this cycle's scientific know-how to the max  With "everyone know knows how to hold a hammer" being assigned to it

Huge fleet buildup, larger than has been seen in recorded history

A terrorist organization opening a second front

An economy due to collapse in a year due to the strain of the war

 

Add to this a second miracle project introducing technology never before hinted at as a "Plan B" (or C, or D, or whatever) that can be accomplished in a few months just by skimming a bit off the Crucible Project (which again, was repeatedly said to be the galaxy's only hope)

 

Does this make any sense at all?

[Pasquale1234]

But going back to a post I made a few pages ago, that's more about establishing tone than it is conveying reality. Bioware crafted this story where Shepard was trying to complete the Cruicible because Shepard believed it was the only hope to save the Galaxy. They didn't want to present any alternatives then because they didn't want the players saying "Why can't we latch on to that, instead? Sounds more reasonable." They want the player as invested as Shepard is.

I'm reminded of other genres like suspense, thrillers, and in particular - mysteries. The detective (or protag) is often led astray by other "clues", even though the evidence that will lead to the ultimate resolution is often right in front of the audience all along.

My point is that any creator of fiction only supplies the details they want the audience to have at any given time. There can be much, much more going on in the world than what the audience is shown at any given time. It's all about effective storytelling.

[Former_Fiend]

You know, speaking as someone who honestly didn't hate the endings as much as most people did, I'm wondering if they didn't inflict a sense of stockholme syndrome on some of the fandom.

[Stazro]

Yes. Nothing that happens after the protagonist's death is relevant.

Otherwise we're using the Aristotelian definition of happiness, and we do not want to do that.

 

The player doesn't die though. Shepard is the central character, but the story is still told for me, the player. I, the player, want closure. Not Shepard. The protagonist's death doesn't remove my desire to know the consequences of my actions.

[Iakus]

Entirely irrelevant. The writers decide what works out and what doesn't. If they decide to make a secret Ark project work out then it works out.
 

That creates nonsense like the Lazarus Project.  Throwing out past events because it interferes with your awesome new story is poor writing.

 

 

 

So everyone involved with the Crucible is omniscient? They didn't know what Cerberus was up to so why should they know about a secret Ark?

Why are you being willfully obtuse? Has Drone indoctrinated you?

Given every major power in the galaxy and most of the minor ones were working on the Crucible, yeah they should be privy to any major projects going on.  And again, the players were told the Crucible was the only hope.  Were we lied to?

 

Drone and I have different reasons for hating the concept of going to Andromeda.

[Iakus]

You know, speaking as someone who honestly didn't hate the endings as much as most people did, I'm wondering if they didn't inflict a sense of stockholme syndrome on some of the fandom.

 

Not really.  At least not in my case.  I hated the endings for their stupid, arbitrary handling of the Reaper, the galaxy and Shepard using handwavy space magic.  SO yeah, I'm going to be upset when we get relocated to another galaxy using handwavy space magic in order to get away from the handwavy space magic that wrecked the original setting.  We're just going to go slash and burn another forest.

[Stazro]

And again, the players were told the Crucible was the only hope.  Were we lied to?

 

The crucible is in any case the only hope to stop the reapers, the only hope for all those left in the galaxy. Sending an expedition to Andromeda doesn't change that.

[wolfhowwl]

A secret continuity of civilization project developed a prototype device that let ships maintain FTL flight without discharging their drivecores. These were outfitted on several ark ships that fled the Milky Way and arrived in Andromeda thousands of years later.

 

You get control of your character upon arrival in Andromeda, there will be some chatter from characters about what you left behind but the game will rapidly move into Andromeda's plot of establishing a foothold, investigating Remnants, etc.

 

Now that's not too hard.

 

Obviously some people that can't accept the premise of the game and the initial handwave won't like it but everyone else will move on and be busy gunning down Khet and crashing the Mako.

[Former_Fiend]

It could be argued that the Crucible plan being our only hope is true when it's stated to be our only hope of defeating the reapers, not our only hope of surviving all together. 

 

Some individuals - Shepard and Hackett - consider them to be one in the same; that we only survive by defeating the reapers. Others can disagree with that assessment and decide that fleeing is as viable an option of survival as anything else.

[Pasquale1234]

^^ We also saw that the allied forces were trying to defeat the reapers as in destroy them, whereas TIM and Cerberus were dedicated to controlling them.

[Han Shot First]

And Cerberus failed.

 

And the batarians failed.

 

And the asari couldn't go it alone after all

 

And if Shepard goes "frak you" to using the Crucible, rocks fall, everyone dies.

 

The Crucible is in fact, the galaxy's only hope.  A detail pounded into our skulls throughout the game.

 

But wait, there's a backup plan to "our only hope" now? 

 

The Crucible is the only hope for defeating the Reapers.

 

An ark project would be a plan to preserve life in the event the war was lost.

 

The two projects would have entirely different goals.

[Iakus]

The Crucible is the only hope for defeating the Reapers.

 

An ark project would be a plan to preserve life in the event the war was lost.

 

The two projects would have entirely different goals.

And are both equally implausible.

[Former_Fiend]

Not really.  At least not in my case.  I hated the endings for their stupid, arbitrary handling of the Reaper, the galaxy and Shepard using handwavy space magic.  SO yeah, I'm going to be upset when we get relocated to another galaxy using handwavy space magic in order to get away from the handwavy space magic that wrecked the original setting.  We're just going to go slash and burn another forest.

 

I don't see any of the proposed justifications for the ARK project leaving before the endings as being anywhere near the violation you make them out to be.

 

And I see all the alternatives as being much, much worse.

[Han Shot First]

And are both equally implausible.

 

Neither is more implausible than the Lazarus Project or humanity mastering FTL from 50,000 year old Prothean tech lying around in Martian sand. .

[GalacticWolf5]

Well that's just dumb. It's a good argument against IT, but how does that make any sense within the setting. You have this asset, and thus you can't choose Destroy?

The reason I liked IT was because it let the War Assets make sense. Because otherwise they just don't.

Now you've shown that they don't regardless. This game is worse than I thought.

 

It's dumb because it dissproves IT?

 

It makes sense within the setting. The more time you take on getting War Assets; the more time we have for the Crucible. If you rush the whole game, without completing any side-quests, that means we had barely enough time to make the Crucible and that your defenses suck.

 

The reason why it's possible to only have Control is probably because you had the Reaper Brain, which most likely helped the science better understand a part of the Crucible (the Control side). If you had the Reaper Heart, then they better understood another side of the Crucible (Destroy).

 

Your war assets do matter. Just because you don't see all of them fighting, doesn't mean they don't matter. And you see some of them fighting anyways.

 

I figured that it happened on the Citadel, and that only the manifestation of the Intelligence and the results of his non-Destroy choices were hallucinations.

 

If the Intelligence truly didn't want Shepard to choose Destroy, it wouldn't even mention it. Yet it does. It says it's not a good solution but it still offers it. It also offers Control but says that it doesn't want Shepard to chose it.

 

About the epilogue slides, I'm gonna give you an example. In Synthesis, Shepard dies. Why would the Intelligence show him a world in which he is dead? He's dead, he's not part of this world anymore, he can't see it. The answer to this is: because it's not being show to Shepard. It's being shown to the players.

 

You can't even tell that the minds are uploaded.

Legions explains it in ME2.

 

Also, I should point out, I don't accept the outcomes shown in the final cinematic because Shepard isn't there to witness them, so there's no reason for them to be shown to us.

 

So the world stops moving because Shepard is dead? Really? What kind of logic is this?

 

And Shepard is there to witness them in the Control ending, he's the new Reaper master consciousness. He's also there to witness them if he survives in Destroy.

[Former_Fiend]

The series isn't told purely through Shepard's perspective; we aren't limited entirely to his view point. We see several things in all three games that Shepard isn't present for; Saren killing Nihlus, TIM talking to Miranda about Shepard, the Collector General typing, Virmire Survivor with the Council before Shepard shows up.

 

Shepard is our primary view point throughout the series, but not the only one.

[AlanC9]

Given every major power in the galaxy and most of the minor ones were working on the Crucible, yeah they should be privy to any major projects going on.  And again, the players were told the Crucible was the only hope.  Were we lied to?

The only hope for saving the galaxy? That's still true. Getting a handful of colonists to Andromeda isn't exactly a win for our side. Beats the hell out oftotal extinction, though

[Killroy]

That creates nonsense like the Lazarus Project.  Throwing out past events because it interferes with your awesome new story is poor writing.

But you want to throw out past events that counter your arguments. Why should we disregard the endless resources and manpower in the galaxy just because you want us to? Why should we disregard how easily clandestine groups can acquire endless resources and undertake massive endeavors in secret just because you want us to?
 

Given every major power in the galaxy and most of the minor ones were working on the Crucible, yeah they should be privy to any major projects going on.

Cerberus.

And again, the players were told the Crucible was the only hope.  Were we lied to?

 
Again, the people telling us that the Crucible is the only option are not omniscient. It doesn't matter what they told us, and I'm pretty sure you know this. You just don't want them to go to the Andromeda galaxy so you're clinging to any stupid little argument you can.

Drone and I have different reasons for hating the concept of going to Andromeda.

You have the same reasons and the same blinders on.

[Iakus]

Neither is more implausible than the Lazarus Project or humanity mastering FTL from 50,000 year old Prothean tech lying around in Martian sand. .

 

The first was another aspect I have ripped on.

 

The second, I would hesitate to say anyone, even the asari have "mastered".  The Reapers are the real masters of the tech.  Humans,just copy it