588 réponses à ce sujet

[Drone223]

As I've explained at length, we don't know that.
 

Given the broadness of their programming it would be logical to consider other galaxy's as well.

 

Quite obvious is not the same as guaranteed, which should be your standard here.

 

The catalyst was given free reign as to how to come up with a solution we were told this by the leviathans.

 

Who said there aren't some explorer class vessels already equiped with this technology? There could be thousands of them, and we wouldn't know, because it wasn't necessary to mention them in the trilogy.

There are also plenty of reasons to quip regular vessels with the technology notability to give them a chance to lose any pressures and make traveling between stars in clusters more efficient. 

[Drone223]

 Then we should probably start with the nature of space battles themselves, which have absolutely no relevance to how the Codex describes them. Wanting consistent lore isn't exactly a crime. But I doubt Bioware is going to throw their ME:A plans in the garbage because of a brief codex entry which is never  used to any extent even in ME1. ​

Things such as the codex help explain how technology works in the ME universe so say staying consistent with the established technology limitations is quite important.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Given the broadness of their programming it would be logical to consider other galaxy's as well.

The catalyst was given free reign as to how to come up with a solution we were told this by the leviathans.

Yes. "By the Leviathans," who might be unaware of their own biases.

Why do you treat the Leviathans as infallible?

And I question your use of the world logical.

[Drone223]

 Then it requires a leap of logic and a stretch in believability for the player. Usually there's a step by step progression in technological development. After all, we didn't just go from driving cars to launching astronauts into space. The invention of the airplane was in between.

 

 

So here we are with the premise of ME:A, where we can't even efficiently get around our own galaxy without the mass relays and yet somehow we're about to go all the way to another galaxy. 

 

It's as if someone went from crawling to becoming a world class sprinter without ever learning how to walk in between. 

Exactly and the time span in which its achieved makes the whole premise even more far fetched. If the technology was developed over centuries (decades if your generous) then the premise would be believable since there would've sufficient technological development to make it plausible.  

[Mcfly616]

 Seems as if you just don't want take the games word for it. You're in denial of in-game information, clearly meant to establish the facts, because you don't like what they have to say and/or you don't want it to be true.

[GalacticWolf5]

If Shepard doesn't witness something, neither should we.

 

So you don't think we should've seen Saren kill Nihlus? Or Miranda talking to TIM? Or Horizon get attacked by the Collector? Or any other sceen where Shepard wasn't present? Or what about the comic books?

 

Does FTL communication still work after the mass relays are destroyed/damaged?

 

No, because they use the Mass Relays and well they don't work so.

 

But where are you going with this?

[Drone223]

Yes. "By the Leviathans," who might be unaware of their own biases.

Why do you treat the Leviathans as infallible?

And I question your use of the world logical.

Since when did I say the leviathans were infallible?

 

The catalyst was told to come up the best solution in order to "preserve all life at any cost" any as in no restrictions to how it approaches its solution.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It has nothing to do with preferred endings its to do with consistency and believability, there is no way that intergalactic travel can be developed within a few months without making it contrived or using (bad) retcons. If it took several decades to developed the technology then it wouldn't be far fetched.

 

There are plenty of reasons to equip such technology first it allows to travel more distances without having to worry about building up discharge thus making exploration and searching for resources a lot easier and it circumnavigates the laws regarding activating in active relay's.

 

Its one thing to stay in constant FTL for 6 months is one thing but its something else entirely to do it for several centuries since there's the issue of wear and tear and not being able to undo irreversible damage if something were to malfunction.

 

It was three years. According to Mike Gamble, the reapers started traveling to the Milky Way immediately after the events of ME1. However, that  was decided after Arrival was written, and they had to return for the photo op at the end of ME2.

 

Also as was stated, the discharging of the drives was mentioned in one line of conversation. It doesn't mean that a work around cannot be found. Like has been mentioned - Reaper FTLs are available. Reaper drive cores are available. Reaper power plants are available. All from dead capital reapers killed by the Turians early in the war, OR engineered from schematics potentially obtained from The Illusive Man from the Derelict Reaper. The reapers don't seem to require routine maintenance for billions of years. So what is the problem?  Nor does it mean that there cannot be anyone around to perform routine maintenance on the ship during the few centuries it will take to travel from the MW to Andromeda. Have you heard of Asari? They live for 1000 years. A crew of Asari would be ideal because it is in their races best interest that every single race survives the journey since their preferred reproduction is with other species. Also Asari have engineers and scientists capable of maintaining ships. They also have pilots. And they don't breed fast even among themselves. So you have a crew of a couple hundred operating the ship while hundreds of thousands of members of their own and other species sleep. See? It works. And all it takes is the writers to make it be successful.

 

Deal with it.

[Il Divo]

Things such as the codex help explain how technology works in the ME universe so say staying consistent with the established technology limitations is quite important.

 

Hey, go for it. I just think it's important to point out that Bioware doesn't seem to care, given that they have violated the rules of space combat according to the Codex about a million times over. ​

[LinksOcarina]

Hey, go for it. I just think it's important to point out that Bioware doesn't seem to care, given that they have violated the rules of space combat according to the Codex about a million times over. ​

 

Not to mention the codex is never set in stone, and shouldn't be, that is very determinist.

[Il Divo]

Not to mention the codex is never set in stone, and shouldn't be, that is very determinist.

 

​

Essentially. The Codex is simply what's considered "common knowledge" for the setting. If I remember right, the ME1 codex (and every character in the game) would have us believe that the Protheans were responsible for all our technology. It was only a few hours later that we learned this wasn't the case.

[Stazro]

Also, I should point out, I don't accept the outcomes shown in the final cinematic because Shepard isn't there to witness them, so there's no reason for them to be shown to us.

 

 

Yes. Nothing that happens after the protagonist's death is relevant.

Otherwise we're using the Aristotelian definition of happiness, and we do not want to do that.

 

 

I legitimately don't care what happens after I stop playing.

 

If you don't care what happens after you stop playing that's up to you of course, but your preferences for video game story telling don't determine what's relevant. The developers decided there was a reason to make the player privy to events the main character doesn't witness - starting actually from the very first moment after ME's character creation, when we listen to Udina, Anderson and Hackett discuss Shepard in his absence - and that's part of the games now just as much as everything with Shepard in it, wether you like it or not.

[AlanC9]

So you don't think we should've seen Saren kill Nihlus? Or Miranda talking to TIM? Or Horizon get attacked by the Collector? Or any other sceen where Shepard wasn't present? Or what about the comic books?

I think ME1 would have been better if we hadn't seen Saren kill Nihlus, yes. It gives the player certainty of Saren's guilt that he really shouldn't have. The Horizon scene doesn't do any damage. I'm not sure about TIM and Miranda

I don't care what the comic books do since nobody forces me to read them before I've played the games.

[AlanC9]

That mechanism should have been explained better.
Shepard went there to Destroy the Reapers. That's been his objective all along. He wasn't even allowed to entertain other ideas when theyvwere suggested. Nkt offering a Destroy option makes the hallucination less credible. Alternatively, Shepard is particularly strong-willed and is able to insert Destroy into the hallucination himself (this is actually backed up by Leviathan, which identifies Shepard as singularly threatening to the Reapers).

You have to posit an awfully weird set of constraints for this to work.

Does FTL communication still work after the mass relays are destroyed/damaged?

Just QECs.

[Gothfather]

It has nothing to do with preferred endings its to do with consistency and believability, there is no way that intergalactic travel can be developed within a few months without making it contrived or using (bad) retcons. If it took several decades to developed the technology then it wouldn't be far fetched.

 

/snip

 

 

Your entire argument hinges on assumptions not yet proved.

 

First why must the the ark project have been started during me3 why couldn't it be started just after the events of ME1? A huge "geth deadnaught" attacks the citadel and almost succeeds. What if the Geth had won? They'd have destroyed all life in citadel space. Maybe we should do something about that.

 

Maybe it was started and shelved during the Rachni wars and was restarted during the events of Me2?

 

Maybe the underlying theories of alternative FTL drives where already developed AND published by someone decades ago but with mass effect technology it was simply ignored. And don't pffft this idea either the paper that explained mad cow disease being prion was published in the 1960's. Prions were pretty much IGNORED until there was a crisis and low and behold someone already discovered them 50 years earlier but it wasn't knowledge that was needed or could be exploited so it sat doing nothing. The same COULD be true about alternative theories of FTL travel.

 

There is no need to cram everything into a few months just because the reaper war starts in ME3. There is reason enough to start the project right after the sovereign attack without believing that Shepard's reapers are coming. The Geth explanation is reason enough to think hey maybe we want a contingency plan in case they take the citadel. The geth have shown a willingness to let organics flee an area without pursuit so an ark has proven track record at surviving Geth expansion. This also isn't the first time citadel space face extinction and having an ark project in the works then could give a huge head start to an ark project now.

 

Your argument hinges on assumptions that are not only not proven but there are numerous PLAUSIBLE ways the technology and the project itself could have had a head start before the events of ME3. There is no need to assume the project and its technologies all started development the moment earth fell.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If you don't care what happens after you stop playing that's up to you of course, but your preferences for video game story telling don't determine what's relevant. The developers decided there was a reason to make the player privy to events the main character doesn't witness - starting actually from the very first moment after ME's character creation, when we listen to Udina, Anderson and Hackett discuss Shepard in his absence - and that's part of the games now just as much as everything with Shepard in it, wether you like it or not.

Yes, but I ignore it while I play. If Shepard isn't privy to that conversation, then it cannot inform her decisions.

The reason I object to those scenes being in there at all is the writers sometimes assume that the player doesn't ignore them.

In DAO, we're shown a scene in which Loghain hires Zevran as an assassin. Later, the Warden meets Zevran and Zevran says he was hired by Loghain. The player knows this is true, but the character doesn't. But the game doesn't offer an option for skepticism, suggesting that the writers are assuming that the player will metagame the conversation.

I don't mind if players metagame. I mind if the developers don't give us the option not to. And I think they'd do it less if those scenes didn't exist.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Just QECs.

Are those common?

Obviously the supply would be limited, as there would be no way to transport the entangled quanta away from each other without mass relays.

[Drone223]

It was three years. According to Mike Gamble, the reapers started traveling to the Milky Way immediately after the events of ME1. However, that  was decided after Arrival was written, and they had to return for the photo op at the end of ME2.

 

Also as was stated, the discharging of the drives was mentioned in one line of conversation. It doesn't mean that a work around cannot be found. Like has been mentioned - Reaper FTLs are available. Reaper drive cores are available. Reaper power plants are available. All from dead capital reapers killed by the Turians early in the war, OR engineered from schematics potentially obtained from The Illusive Man from the Derelict Reaper. The reapers don't seem to require routine maintenance for billions of years. So what is the problem?  Nor does it mean that there cannot be anyone around to perform routine maintenance on the ship during the few centuries it will take to travel from the MW to Andromeda. Have you heard of Asari? They live for 1000 years. A crew of Asari would be ideal because it is in their races best interest that every single race survives the journey since their preferred reproduction is with other species. Also Asari have engineers and scientists capable of maintaining ships. They also have pilots. And they don't breed fast even among themselves. So you have a crew of a couple hundred operating the ship while hundreds of thousands of members of their own and other species sleep. See? It works. And all it takes is the writers to make it be successful.

 

Deal with it.

My point still stands 3 years pretty much nothing compared to several centuries in addition the reaper's didn't have to worry about cooking their passengers alive. In addition it also raises the questions to why their not traveling to other galaxies in the first place if they have the means to do so?

 

Your entire argument hinges on assumptions not yet proved.

 

First why must the the ark project have been started during me3 why couldn't it be started just after the events of ME1? A huge "geth deadnaught" attacks the citadel and almost succeeds. What if the Geth had won? They'd have destroyed all life in citadel space. Maybe we should do something about that.

 

Maybe it was started and shelved during the Rachni wars and was restarted during the events of Me2?

 

Maybe the underlying theories of alternative FTL drives where already developed AND published by someone decades ago but with mass effect technology it was simply ignored. And don't pffft this idea either the paper that explained mad cow disease being prion was published in the 1960's. Prions were pretty much IGNORED until there was a crisis and low and behold someone already discovered them 50 years earlier but it wasn't knowledge that was needed or could be exploited so it sat doing nothing. The same COULD be true about alternative theories of FTL travel.

 

There is no need to cram everything into a few months just because the reaper war starts in ME3. There is reason enough to start the project right after the sovereign attack without believing that Shepard's reapers are coming. The Geth explanation is reason enough to think hey maybe we want a contingency plan in case they take the citadel. The geth have shown a willingness to let organics flee an area without pursuit so an ark has proven track record at surviving Geth expansion. This also isn't the first time citadel space face extinction and having an ark project in the works then could give a huge head start to an ark project now.

 

Your argument hinges on assumptions that are not only not proven but there are numerous PLAUSIBLE ways the technology and the project itself could have had a head start before the events of ME3. There is no need to assume the project and its technologies all started development the moment earth fell.

As Mcfly616 said earlier the entire premise of ark theory relay's too much on huge leap's of logic and feasibility. Its extremely far-fetched for a the galaxy who is heavily dependent of the relay's to travel long distances in their own galaxy to being able to suddenly develop the means travel to other galaxies in a extremely short time span even if its a few years.

[Drone223]

Hey, go for it. I just think it's important to point out that Bioware doesn't seem to care, given that they have violated the rules of space combat according to the Codex about a million times over. ​

So basically we have to accept everything Bioware does even the parts that are badly written or contrived.

[Il Divo]

So basically we have to accept everything Bioware does even the parts that are badly written or contrived.

 

​

Not exactly. It's more there's never been any indication that Bioware takes its own codex seriously, in any capacity beyond lip service. You're free to convince them otherwise, but I doubt it'll amount to much. Even as a fan of the Mass Effect codex, I doubt it ranks high on most anyone's wish list.

[AlanC9]

Are those common?
Obviously the supply would be limited, as there would be no way to transport the entangled quanta away from each other without mass relays.

Right. With the relays out of action you'd be limited to whatever survived the war.

As for what survived, it'd be kind of up to Bio. QECs aren't supposed to be common, but you just need one pair to establish contact with a cluster, as long as you're not exoecting full bandwidth. Any Citadel government system, being centered on the Citadel like everything else, presumably, could be completely trashed. The human military QEC network seems to have been partially functional to the end of the war, though, since Shepard can communicate with Anderson. It's not explicitly stated that other races use the QEC system, but they could have links operating to at least some of their worlds assuming their QEC-equipped ships survived the battle of Earth. Though the Destroy wave could be a wild card here.

[Ahglock]

And are both equally implausible.

 

Really?

 

Building a better spaceship is just a implausible as a magic ray that transmogrifies the galaxy?

 

I'm sorry, what.  I mean seriously in game there are semi-plausible excuses for super long space travel based on a variety of things, from the codex can be wrong, to its obvious the reapers beat it.  so stealing tech rapidly but still existing tech is just as implausible as magic rays the change the entire effing galaxy.

 

On the ME space magic scale the Ark isn't even a blip on the radar. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As Mcfly616 said earlier the entire premise of ark theory relay's too much on huge leap's of logic and feasibility. Its extremely far-fetched for a the galaxy who is heavily dependent of the relay's to travel long distances in their own galaxy to being able to suddenly develop the means travel to other galaxies in a extremely short time span even if its a few years.

That's why while I don't support Ark Theory but I do support Black Ark Theory. The Black Arks seemingly have every issue in the way already solved, and we know how to work them, so capturing one and retrofitting it isn't a suspension of disbelief. 

[AlanC9]

As Mcfly616 said earlier the entire premise of ark theory relay's too much on huge leap's of logic and feasibility. Its extremely far-fetched for a the galaxy who is heavily dependent of the relay's to travel long distances in their own galaxy to being able to suddenly develop the means travel to other galaxies in a extremely short time span even if its a few years.

No more implausible than what humans did with FTL.

[AlanC9]

That's why while I don't support Ark Theory but I do support Black Ark Theory. The Black Arks seemingly have every issue in the way already solved, and we know how to work them, so capturing one and retrofitting it isn't a suspension of disbelief.

Plus the big advantage that they've only got the one captured ship. If the intergalactic travel problem really is solved, moving to Andromeda doesn't solve much of anything.