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[JasonShepard]

I go away for a month, and people are still debating over how the endings are going to be accounted for. Ah, Bioware forum, don't ever change...

 

What is the alternative?

 

Lazarus Project: The obvious alternative would be to not have Shepard die (although that would detract from the punch of ME2's opening). The Lazarus project was a nice excuse for why you could change your appearance and class, but since everyone recognises Shepard anyway, it's clear that the Commander's face didn't really change in-universe.

 

An alternative that preserves ME2's emotional punch? Make it clear how Shepard avoided information death of the brain. If all the information in the brain can somehow be retrieved, (via greybox, or a stasis field, or experimental medi-gel) then I have no problem with TIM's method of "pour enough money into Lazarus and it'll get there". However, since there's no indication that information death was avoided, the Lazarus Project instead comes across as the equivalent of thoroughly burning down a library of unique books, and somehow being able to reconstruct every single page from the ashes.

 

Synthesis: You want to introduce a new form of life? Something that levels the playing field between Synthetics and Organics? Fine. Have the Crucible use all its energy to create a strain of nanites that can be injected into people. Receiving the injection allows an organic to self-modify to the same extent that a synthetic can - for example, if you want a new arm, well, they'll need you to eat a bit more than usual, but the nanites can do that for you. Shepard receives the first injection, and can share it with everyone else.

 

This removes the necessity for green-magic-space-waves, and nanites are already an established part of the ME-verse, since husks are made using them. It also removes the huge consent problem that Synthesis poses in the current ending.

 

Beating the Reapers. Without a Deus Ex Machina: Because lets face it, that's what the Crucible was. We didn't do the legwork to figure out how to beat the Reapers - the Protheans already knew how; all we had to do was build the damn thing.

 

Bioware built up the Reapers as an impossible force, one that couldn't be beaten... but they did leave them with a weakness. I'm genuinely surprised that they didn't capitalise on it. I guess they were too focused on figuring out the Reapers' motivations to realise that they'd left themselves with the perfect Reaper-Achilles-Heel, built into the series ever since ME1.

 

Indoctrination.

 

No, I'm not talking about Indoctrination Theory, although I do feel that this is part of what makes IT so attractive to some people. Indoctrination was never fully explained, but we knew exactly what it did. Prolonged exposure to the Reapers corrupted your thoughts until you could only think thoughts that aligned with their goals. Until they owned your mind.

 

So what happens if you turned it around? Better yet, what happens if you switch it off, and every race that's ever been preserved in Reaper form suddenly comprehends what's been done to them? (Because I can't believe that races don't get indoctrinated whilst being Reaper-ified.)

 

Some would self-destruct. Some would defect. Some would just disappear into the darkness of space. And some may have been under the thrall of Indoctrination for too long, and continue to fight against us.

 

But regardless, the Reaper fleet would be divided, and it would be beatable. And it would have been done without introducing something completely new to the plot. Without introducing a Deus Ex Machina - something that, for all intents and purposes, just makes our cycle even more 'lucky'.

 

***

 

Did that answer your question? Are those sufficient as alternatives?

[Drone223]

The Lazarus Project does have narrative issues, and doesn't make much sense scientifically. They did explore a bit of the implications of it, particularly in ME3's datatypes that imply Shepard could possibly me cyborg-ish, not to a largely meaningful degree, but that's totally besides the point. I disagree with Iakus' assertion that it takes away tension from the story.

There is no tension with the Lazarus project its quickly forgotten shortly after Shepard is brought back not to mention putting Shepard in coma for two years would achieve the exact same thing.

 

This woukd be true if Normandy had been at orbital velocity. It wasn't.

Except we clearly see Shepard's body burning up upon reentry.

[Iakus]

Because we want to hate the game?

Believe me, I don't want to.  But I've been burned too many times to have confidence.

[AlanC9]

Except we clearly see Shepard's body burning up upon reentry.

Did we? I saw a visual effect, but it didn't look like Shepard was actally in fire.

Anyway, so what? It eoukdn't be the first time that a space cutscene didn't match the lore.

[spinachdiaper]

Well it could be worse...It could be the R.C.R.G.S. (Renegade Control Reaper God Shepard) and they could make him/her the ME:A main villain.

[Gothfather]

What if, tomorrow there was a press release that a car engine was developed that could run constantly for over a century without any maintenance?

 

Yeah, a leap from what the cycle is currently capable of to traveling to other galaxies would be a leap akin to that.

Oh for frak sake we have CURRENT theories in cosmology/Astrophysics that exist today that if proven correct could be the foundation of real FTL travel. They are called wormholes. This isn't science fiction, it isn't fanciful BS, it is hard theoretical physics. Is it true? We don't know, but for half a century we didn't know if the Higgs-bosen particle was real but we do now.

 

It does not take a wild fanciful space magic kind of explanation we have a theory from the last century that states if you could fold space and punch a whole between the two points you could create a bridge that would allow you to bypass the light speed limitation. Wormholes are SERIOUS Science they are hard science and they are real theories. It is not unreasonable that there is a breakthrough in this field of study.

 

You might believe that wormholes are just science fiction and space magic style technology but it is not, the same type of theoretical physics that predicted the Higgs-bosen particle has predicted wormholes. So NO you don't need to have a huge leap in existing mass effect drive technology akin to your example to make this ark project viable and believable, you just have to say a CURRENT and existing REAL life theory predicted by theoretical physicists is correct. That is not a huge step to make.

[Gothfather]

The Lazarus Project does have narrative issues, and doesn't make much sense scientifically. They did explore a bit of the implications of it, particularly in ME3's datatypes that imply Shepard could possibly me cyborg-ish, not to a largely meaningful degree, but that's totally besides the point. I disagree with Iakus' assertion that it takes away tension from the story.

 

Iakus asserts that if Shepard is brought back from the dead at the beginning of the ME2, then it is theoretically possible to bring anyone who dies back to life. Then makes the assumption, that if this can theoretically happen, then we don't need to worry about who lives or dies, because they will just be brought back to life anyway. But people die and fail in ME2 and ME3. A lot of people. And they don't get brought back to life. Thus the assumption is false.

 

Why would we make similar assumptions with MEA? Why would we assume that any hand waves at the start will inevitably lead to hand waves that resolve the major conflicts and keep anyone ever from having a permanent death?

 

The lazarus Project did what it was suppose to do narratively. It reiencfored/solidified the Messiah archetype for Shepard. If you look at the story elements within ME1 there are key points that point to the messiah archetype.

 

1) Shepard has special knowledge imparted by the divine (Note that the Protheans are viewed as divine by the hanar)

2) Shepard's name is the same phonetically as shepherd which is one of the names given to Jesus Christ the Christian Messiah

3) The prophet of the special knowledge is ignored and disbelieved

 

These are very key elements that point to a messiah archetype. And in ME2 we get two more very clear narrative story elements

 

1) The death and resurrection of Shepard

2) The gathering of the 12 apostles/companions  (There are 13 companions but one is a replacement of an existing companion so you only every have 12.)

 

You might not like the fact that Shepard is a Messiah archetype but it is pretty damn clear from the narrative approach taken that this was the deliberate intent of the writers. Even the epilogue of ME3 changes the reference of the protagonist from a name to a title, "The Shepard." This is all independent of players liking or disliking this aspect of the game or if they are religious or not, there are clear narrative points that portray Shepard as a Messiah figure.  The Lazarist Project was a simple narrative tool to make Shepard larger than human, something of the divine, someone who arose from the dead. Hell one of the endings is the ascension of the "god-Shepard," still another example of the narrative reinforcing the concept of the Messiah archetype.

 

This is the reason for the Lazarist Project.

[Drone223]

Did we? I saw a visual effect, but it didn't look like Shepard was actally in fire.
Anyway, so what? It eoukdn't be the first time that a space cutscene didn't match the lore.

Shepards body was found on Alchera so it was quite obvious Shepards body was burning up into atmosphere meaning Shepard should just be nothing more than ash.

[Gothfather]

Shepards body was found on Alchera so it was quite obvious Shepards body was burning up into atmosphere meaning Shepard should just be nothing more than ash.

You are right it should have been but it wasn't which is a 'miracle' which lands the Lazarist Project clearly in the narrative camp of reinforcing the themes of Shepard being a messiah figure. So what? this is consistent with other elements within the entire trilogy that cage Shepard as the Shepherd of the Galaxy.

[Vol_Tang_Clan]

There is no tension with the Lazarus project its quickly forgotten shortly after Shepard is brought back not to mention putting Shepard in coma for two years would achieve the exact same thing.

 

Except we clearly see Shepard's body burning up upon reentry.

 

The people of Aldrin Labs make good armor, but not good enough. Had it been something from Elkoss Combine, Shepard would have survived.

[AlanC9]

Shepards body was found on Alchera so it was quite obvious Shepards body was burning up into atmosphere meaning Shepard should just be nothing more than ash.

Don't be silly. Neither Shepard nor the Normandy were incinerated. The most you're going to get out of this argument is that somebody botched the VFX at the end of the prologue,

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Don't be silly. Neither Shepard nor the Normandy were incinerated. The most you're going to get out of this argument is that somebody botched the VFX at the end of the prologue,

Well, to be fair they should have been. The planetary codex of Alchera says it has a thick atmosphere of ammonia and methane and has an atmospheric pressure of 0.83 atm, which is more than enough to incinerate things on reentry if not built for planetary reentry. 

[KaiserShep]

Well, to be fair they should have been. The planetary codex of Alchera says it has a thick atmosphere of ammonia and methane and has an atmospheric pressure of being 0.83 atm, which is more than enough to incinerate things on reentry if not built for planetary reentry. 

 

This is why I treat ME2's prologue as one of those silly things that I just ignore. I prefer to think that they found Shepard in orbit or something, which is really what they should have done if they were going to stick to that stupid Lazawhatsit Project. 

[Seboist]

Lazarus was just an idiotic and ultimately unnecessary means to break up the squad, fast forward two years and get Shep with Cerb. That Shep dies and gets revived within five minutes and it gets treated like he just woke up from an afternoon nap and is the butt of jokes shows Walters and co were more interested in creating comic book schlock than a proper science fiction story.

 

Anyone that was paying attention to what an atrocious sequel ME2 was with elements like that could see the ME3 endings coming from a 100 miles away.

[Drone223]

The people of Aldrin Labs make good armor, but not good enough. Had it been something from Elkoss Combine, Shepard would have survived.

Shepard's suit was ruptured so I doubt it would've made much of a difference during reentry.

[JasonShepard]

Shepards body was found on Alchera so it was quite obvious Shepards body was burning up into atmosphere meaning Shepard should just be nothing more than ash.

 

Do you have a source for that? As far as I'm aware, it was never clarified in-game where they found Shepard. Was there a direct statement of "found on Alchera" in the Liara comic?

[RVallant]

>_> I guess my point was skipped over. Ho hum.

 

 

Lazarus was just an idiotic and ultimately unnecessary means to break up the squad, fast forward two years and get Shep with Cerb. That Shep dies and gets revived within five minutes and it gets treated like he just woke up from an afternoon nap and is the butt of jokes shows Walters and co were more interested in creating comic book schlock than a proper science fiction story.

 

Anyone that was paying attention to what an atrocious sequel ME2 was with elements like that could see the ME3 endings coming from a 100 miles away.

 

To be fair, even if the way the ending was going was 'obvious' people like to cling to hope that it would somehow swerve in the other direction. Part of the reason there was so much rage at the endings in my humble opinion, as much as people dress it up as not being the case.

[Iakus]

Oh for frak sake we have CURRENT theories in cosmology/Astrophysics that exist today that if proven correct could be the foundation of real FTL travel. They are called wormholes. This isn't science fiction, it isn't fanciful BS, it is hard theoretical physics. Is it true? We don't know, but for half a century we didn't know if the Higgs-bosen particle was real but we do now.

 

It does not take a wild fanciful space magic kind of explanation we have a theory from the last century that states if you could fold space and punch a whole between the two points you could create a bridge that would allow you to bypass the light speed limitation. Wormholes are SERIOUS Science they are hard science and they are real theories. It is not unreasonable that there is a breakthrough in this field of study.

 

You might believe that wormholes are just science fiction and space magic style technology but it is not, the same type of theoretical physics that predicted the Higgs-bosen particle has predicted wormholes. So NO you don't need to have a huge leap in existing mass effect drive technology akin to your example to make this ark project viable and believable, you just have to say a CURRENT and existing REAL life theory predicted by theoretical physicists is correct. That is not a huge step to make.

And if it's such a small step for the current cycle, then why don't the Reapers use it?  WHy do they use relays at all?

[Iakus]

Do you have a source for that? As far as I'm aware, it was never clarified in-game where they found Shepard. Was there a direct statement of "found on Alchera" in the Liara comic?

Shepard's old helmet is on the surface of Alchera and can be picked up and put on display in his/her cabin.

[AlanC9]

Well, to be fair they should have been. The planetary codex of Alchera says it has a thick atmosphere of ammonia and methane and has an atmospheric pressure of 0.83 atm, which is more than enough to incinerate things on reentry if not built for planetary reentry.

Only if you were actually at something close to orbital velocity when you started to fall. Felix Baumgartner didn't have to worry about burning up when he jumped because he wasn't in orbit, he was just in space. Remember, Normandy's final velocity relative to the planet is random -- meaning that it's whatever Bio needs it to be.

[LinksOcarina]

Lazarus was just an idiotic and ultimately unnecessary means to break up the squad, fast forward two years and get Shep with Cerb. That Shep dies and gets revived within five minutes and it gets treated like he just woke up from an afternoon nap and is the butt of jokes shows Walters and co were more interested in creating comic book schlock than a proper science fiction story.

 

Anyone that was paying attention to what an atrocious sequel ME2 was with elements like that could see the ME3 endings coming from a 100 miles away.

 

God forbid they hamstring the player for the narratives sake...

 

Also, did you prophesize this yourself back then? if Mass Effect 2 was so transparently bad of course, I don't recall folks saying 3 would terrible in terms of it's endings until folks seemed to get TO the endings. 

[JasonShepard]

Shepard's old helmet is on the surface of Alchera and can be picked up and put on display in his/her cabin.

 

That makes just as much sense if it's a spare helmet that went down with the wreck. More sense, even, since according to ME3 the helmet apparently kept Shep's brain intact - something Cerberus could only know if they acquired the body with the helmet on (and it wasn't Cerberus that originally retrieved the body). Furthermore, judging by the Commander's trajectory in the ME2 opening, even if Shepard did land on Alchera then it wouldn't have been anywhere near the Normandy wreckage.

 

I'm looking for a direct statement, somewhere in the lore, that Shepard was retrieved from the surface as opposed to being found floating in space.

 

The best evidence that I've seen is, as you've stated, the helmet being found on the surface, and also the fact that Shepard appears to 'flare-up' at the end of the opening cutscene - despite the fact that Shep is far too far away from the planet to be undergoing re-entry at that point.

[AlanC9]

I'd just call the flare a cutscene mistake and move on. And yeah, it's gotta be a spare helmet from the trajectories.

[Iakus]

I'd just call the flare a cutscene mistake and move on. And yeah, it's gotta be a spare helmet from the trajectories.

 

Logically, the Normandy, Mako, et al., should have been scattered over many, many miles.  But it's all neatly clumped together in a tiny area.

 

It might have been a "mistake" but I think it is indeed meant to be Shepard's actual helmet.  Why would anyone make a big deal over a spare after all?