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[Killroy]

And if it's such a small step for the current cycle, then why don't the Reapers use it?  WHy do they use relays at all?

Why didn't Steven Hawking create the iPhone?

You understand that different things think differently, correct?

[KaiserShep]

Logically, the Normandy, Mako, et al., should have been scattered over many, many miles.  But it's all neatly clumped together in a tiny area.
 
It might have been a "mistake" but I think it is indeed meant to be Shepard's actual helmet.  Why would anyone make a big deal over a spare after all?

This kind of contradicts the dialogue in the Project Lazarus data logs. Shepard is still wearing the helmet when found, which the doctor claimed kept the brain intact.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Believe me, I don't want to. But I've been burned too many times to have confidence.

You don't need confidence. You just need hope. Or what economists call upside risk.

I'm confident that you like the ME games more than I do. And yet I'm somehow more optimistic about MEA, simply I'm not drawing unnecessary conclusions.

But someone who drew unnecessarily favourable conclusions would probably be really excited and think I was a huge pessimist.

[Gothfather]

And if it's such a small step for the current cycle, then why don't the Reapers use it?  WHy do they use relays at all?

Well we were told why. The catalyst explains it all.

 

The first few cycles were without relays. They too longer because organics developed technology in 'unsuspected ways.' Now the reapers seed mass effect technology near any primitive races so that they develop Mass effect tech. With it they discover the Relay system and with that they discover the Citadel. The whole purpose of the relay system is to stop development in non mass effect based technology. yet we already know that organics can do the unsuspected. Shepard's cycle was special. it got a warning of the reapers in time, it stopped Sovereign, it found the leviathan's, it likely defeated the reapers (3/4 endings equal reaper defeat.) 

 

The reapers steer people down a predictable technology path so that when they strike they have a technological advantage, they have had a lot longer to refine Mass effect tech. The reapers have no desire to create and explore new technology. They are not independent machines. The Catalyst was created independently of the reapers, it states it created the reapers and it says it is the embodiment of all reaper intelligence. If it created the reapers and was created independently of the reapers you can rule out it is the embodiment of a reaper hive mind consciousness.  The reapers are tools not independent beings. 

 

Yet nothing about mass effect tech is an actual hindrance from some university or Salarian Scientist, taking the next step in finding proof of wormholes and a way to exploit it. This is hard Science and it it real science and it is well within the lore as to why the reapers wouldn't have it. The reapers are not top of the pyramid the catalyst is and it has only one purpose the 'preservation' of life in the form of reapers. It isn't interested in science for science sake. It solved the issue of widely divergent scientific advancement of organics by making mass effect tech easier to discover and already seeding the infrastructure throughout the galaxy. But this cycle has already proven 'different' and 'special' and it also has the 'Messiah.' In every way this cycles organics breaking the cycle in yet another separate way is consistent with the theme and plot structure of the previous ME trilogy.

[Iakus]

Why didn't Steven Hawking create the iPhone?

You understand that different things think differently, correct?

I understand that the relays were built as part of the trap for the younger races to follow.

 

SO, why would the Reapers bother with them, if they have superior toys to play with?

[Iakus]

This kind of contradicts the dialogue in the Project Lazarus data logs. Shepard is still wearing the helmet when found, which the doctor claimed kept the brain intact.

My understanding (from the comics) is the Blue Suns found Shepard's body for the Shadow Broker.  It's entirely possible, especially given Liara has a piece of Shepard's armor and dog tags, that they stripped be body when they found it.

 

You don't need confidence. You just need hope. Or what economists call upside risk.

I'm confident that you like the ME games more than I do. And yet I'm somehow more optimistic about MEA, simply I'm not drawing unnecessary conclusions.

But someone who drew unnecessarily favourable conclusions would probably be really excited and think I was a huge pessimist.

"You have hope.  More than you know"  

 

Consider it more that I like the potential the ME games have.  But I am bitterly disappointed that not only is it failing to live up to that potential, but I am also seeing it squandered.

[Gothfather]

I understand that the relays were built as part of the trap for the younger races to follow.

 

SO, why would the Reapers bother with them, if they have superior toys to play with?

You ASSUME the reapers have superior toys to play with. The reapers are not independent beings they are controlled by the catalyst and we have further proof of this in the control ending as the "god Shepard" controls all reapers. Reapers are not interested in advancing technology because the catalyst isn't interested. It has already found the most efficient way to harvest life in the galaxy it doesn't need to advance further and it has no desire to expand its knowledge for knowledge's sake. You have all this information in ME3, but you are too dead set against MEA to open your eyes.

[Killroy]

I understand that the relays were built as part of the trap for the younger races to follow.
 
SO, why would the Reapers bother with them, if they have superior toys to play with?

That whooshing sound you heard was the point, flying over your head.

The Reapers are not omnipotent. Just because something can be done doesn't mean they already did it. The Reapers have been using the same tech for hundreds of millions of years. They are not the peak of intellect and ingenuity, they are a plateaued group of illogical living blights.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Do any such points exist within the galaxy? That would mean bad relay network design.

Not to mention it would make the ending choice irrelevant to the original series.

[Iakus]

You ASSUME the reapers have superior toys to play with. The reapers are not independent beings they are controlled by the catalyst and we have further proof of this in the control ending as the "god Shepard" controls all reapers. Reapers are not interested in advancing technology because the catalyst isn't interested. It has already found the most efficient way to harvest life in the galaxy it doesn't need to advance further and it has no desire to expand its knowledge for knowledge's sake. You have all this information in ME3, but you are too dead set against MEA to open your eyes.

They'd want to expand it to locate and counter any threats to their cycle (like synthetics in other galaxies)

 

Or, you know organics trying to escape them.

 

Anything this cycle can build, the Reapers could do better.  We advanced down the paths they want.  We're not going to be developing anything they can't counter any time soon.

[Sylvius the Mad]

You ASSUME the reapers have superior toys to play with.

And you assume they don't. Either way, there's no real evidence.

[o Ventus]

Beyond the fact that travel taking decades if not centuries being perfectly inline with the idea that the meat of MEA is going to take place "long after" the original trilogy, there's no need for whatever technology they make up to get them there to have been available long before it's implamentation, and there are plenty of justifications for it not being wide spread.

 

I could literally list dozens off the top of my head - I've already posited several over the course of this thread - but I'm just be spitballing hypothetical that the writers have had three years to think about. I don't have much faith in the ME writing staff, but I believe they're capable of coming up with a justification for this that doesn't break the preexisting lore. Bend it, probably, but that's part of the writing process. You get new ideas and sometimes the old ones have to be compromised to make the new ones work. That doesn't ruin the whole thing. 

 

Let's do some maths to put into perspective just how far away Andromeda is from the Milky Way, and why no conventional FTL as it's known in the MEU could possibly get a group of colonists there without disaster.

 

Andromeda is 2.5 million lightyears away from the Milky Way, give or take. Starships in ME, on average, have a top speed of around 12 lightyears per day (24 hours). Assuming they are traveling in a straight line and don't make ANY stops along the way, they will be traveling for 571 years, or 208,000 days.

 

Now, take into account the fact that a ship will eventually have to stop and discharge its drive core (because if it doesn't, it heats up and kills the crew), which means it would need either a VI, AI, or continual crew support to keep it maintained. Crew support is out of the question, because unless those crewmen are having children and starting families, they won't be able to work for 571 years. The VI and AI will require continuous power consumption, so you had better hope your starship has a good battery.

 

And such a massive undertaking would require a massive and continuous amount of power to keep the life support systems of the ship active, unless you want this entire trip to be for nothing. I don't know about you, but I don't know of very many ways to keep a space ship powered and active for 571 years without it at least a water pipe bursting.

 

All of these things add up and create extra travel time. 571 years would easily become 600 years or more. Empires rise and fall in less time than that. The asari and krogan might be able to make it assuming they pack enough Lunchables and juice boxes, but at least a dozen or more generations of the other races will be born, live a complete life, and die before they make landfall. So no, "they" don't have the technology. The only semi-feasible way they could get to Andromeda and not all die along the way is if Bioware cops out and does something like put a Relay in the Milky Way that connects to somewhere in Andromeda.

[FKA_Servo]

As I've said, I can deal with a contrivance or a retcon to kick the whole thing off. And I think the more time between the OT and this, the better. That said, I'd be basically ignoring the existence of the original trilogy entirely and treating it as a harder reboot than "soft" one they maybe intend. Which I understand wouldn't work for everyone.

 

In light of this, a giant (giant) arkship of sorts (thinking along the lines of the ships from the old Phantasy Star games) with a self-sustaining biosphere and powered by heretofore unknown space magic seems pretty cool to me. As long as they keep their stuff straight going forward from there, I'm on board.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I rather like the idea of the trip taking centuries, honestly. It would be sort of cool to be just arriving in Andromeda and interacting with some original asari and krogan colonists on the ship who were there for the whole trip.

[Killroy]

They'd want to expand it to locate and counter any threats to their cycle (like synthetics in other galaxies)
 
Or, you know organics trying to escape them.
 
Anything this cycle can build, the Reapers could do better.  We advanced down the paths they want.  We're not going to be developing anything they can't counter any time soon.

That's idiotic. Just because they made the relays they're omnipotent and no one for the rest of time could ever think of something the Reapers haven't already thought of?

[Iakus]

That's idiotic. Just because they made the relays they're omnipotent and no one for the rest of time could ever think of something the Reapers haven't already thought of?

Show me where I said omnipotent.  

 

Go ahead.  I'll wait.

 

The Reapers are much more powerful, more advanced, and they have been doing this for a long, long time.  

 

Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire  

 

They deliberately seeded the galaxy with technology for us to find, letting us develop along technological lines THEY HAVE ALREADY MASTERED.  They don't let the younger races develop far enough to become a genuine threat to them.  They encourage complacency and stagnation so they are easier to harvest.

 

Can other races think outside the box and come up with genuinely new technology?  SUre.  But it'll take a while. All the really advanced stuff is built off Reaper tech and it will take some serious lateral thinking to break that habit.

[rapscallioness]

The Reapers real power was in secrecy and surprise. Other than that, they're pretty much a one trick pony. This process of harvest is all they know how to do. It is nigh impossible for Them to think outside of the box.

 

It's a good trick, yeah, but all it takes is one that knows the secret/surprise. One that knows how the trick works, and the Reapers have lost huge advantage.

 

I could very easily see some scientists, or somebody, having escaped over the course of the billions of years the Reapers have been doing this. You can't kill us all! You can't. We skitter too much. We scurry. We burrow! My God, do we burrow to save our butts.

 

Point is, I could easily see some organics escaping; hiding; passing on the info. Thinking laterally. Developing new tech already. Passing this knowledge and info on over millennia.

 

And we have only seen a small portion of the MW, right? So, who knows? Some organics could have very, very easily escaped to some primitive, off the grid world and continued from there.

 

Their descendants could have found a way to Andromeda ages ago.

[Killroy]

Show me where I said omnipotent.
Go ahead. I'll wait.
The Reapers are much more powerful, more advanced, and they have been doing this for a long, long time.
Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire
They deliberately seeded the galaxy with technology for us to find, letting us develop along technological lines THEY HAVE ALREADY MASTERED. They don't let the younger races develop far enough to become a genuine threat to them. They encourage complacency and stagnation so they are easier to harvest
Can other races think outside the box and come up with genuinely new technology? SUre. But it'll take a while. All the really advanced stuff is built off Reaper tech and it will take some serious lateral thinking to break that habit.

You said that everything anyone could ever come up with is already at the Reaper's disposal, like they've literally thought of and developed everything that could ever exist. That's straight up idiotic.
The races that start using the Reaper's tech got to that point on their own, without Reaper engineering. Does every race reach that point in an identical way? No. They're all different and think differently. So why couldn't one race come up with something extraordinary? Why would it take so much longer than 1 cycle? Do breakthroughs not exist in the ME universe?

[AlanC9]

Crew support is out of the question, because unless those crewmen are having children and starting families, they won't be able to work for 571 years.

Unless they're asari, as you note later. So pack everyone else into stasis and let asari fly the ship.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Unless they're asari, as you note later. So pack everyone else into stasis and let asari fly the ship.

That would require life support to be on throughout the entire ship for the duration of the journey, which would cost more energy than just having a VI or AI fly the ship and activate mechs or drones to maintain it. Plus there is also psychological conditions to be concerned about like being stuck in a place for nearly six centuries and the effect that will have on organic minds. AIs or especially VIs however don't have that problem since they can be fully content to be like that for theoretically an eternity. 

[Vol_Tang_Clan]

Shepard's suit was ruptured so I doubt it would've made much of a difference during reentry.

 

That's because it was inferior human-made armor.

[slimgrin]

ME's plot was on shaky ground 5 minutes into ME2. The optimistic view is they really intend to start over and leave Shepard/Christ child behind. 

[Iakus]

You said that everything anyone could ever come up with is already at the Reaper's disposal, like they've literally thought of and developed everything that could ever exist. That's straight up idiotic.
The races that start using the Reaper's tech got to that point on their own, without Reaper engineering. Does every race reach that point in an identical way? No. They're all different and think differently. So why couldn't one race come up with something extraordinary? Why would it take so much longer than 1 cycle? Do breakthroughs not exist in the ME universe?

 

Because after a certain point, everything is handed to them.  The relays.  FTL technology.  Mass effect fields.  All this stuff is reverse engineered from tech the Reapers allowed us to find.  Listen to Kaidan talk about Jump Zero.  HUmanity abandoned further FTL research once they learned how to build eezo cores.

 

I repeat:  

 

Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire.

 

Sure until that point the races were developing on their own.  But they haven't been doing that in hundreds, even thousands of years in a few cases.

 

I did not say that everything that everything that could be developed was already at the Reapers' disposal.  I said that the Reapers channeled the development of the races so they would proceed down the lines the Reapers laid out for them.   Everyone is totally dependent on this miracle tech and it will take a lot of time and effort to wean them off it.

[Iakus]

That would require life support to be on throughout the entire ship for the duration of the journey, which would cost more energy than just having a VI or AI fly the ship and activate mechs or drones to maintain it. Plus there is also psychological conditions to be concerned about like being stuck in a place for nearly six centuries and the effect that will have on organic minds. AIs or especially VIs however don't have that problem since they can be fully content to be like that for theoretically an eternity. 

Yeah, even comparatively young asari will be well into middle age by the time they even reach Andromeda, let alone find a habitable world.

 

five-six hundred years is a lot, even for such a long-lived race.

[Killroy]

Because after a certain point, everything is handed to them.  The relays.  FTL technology.  Mass effect fields.  All this stuff is reverse engineered from tech the Reapers allowed us to find.  Listen to Kaidan talk about Jump Zero.  HUmanity abandoned further FTL research once they learned how to build eezo cores.

Every single human in the galaxy stopped sciencing just because relays?
 

I repeat:  
 
Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire.

The Reapers say all kinds of ****. Most of it is nonsense. Remember when Sovereign told Shepard that the cycles are too far beyond our tiny organic minds to comprehend? Yeah, total BS.
Why are you acting like the Reapers are the be all, end all and omnipotent?
 

Sure until that point the races were developing on their own.  But they haven't been doing that in hundreds, even thousands of years in a few cases.

Really? So it's not just humans that stop sciencing because relays, it's everyone except the Reapers?
 

I did not say that everything that everything that could be developed was already at the Reapers' disposal.  I said that the Reapers channeled the development of the races so they would proceed down the lines the Reapers laid out for them.   Everyone is totally dependent on this miracle tech and it will take a lot of time and effort to wean them off it.

How did the Keepers get reprogrammed to stop letting the Reapers through? Was that part of the Reapers' trajectory for our development? How did the Crucible come to be? Was that part of the Reapers' trajectory for our development?

Your argument has no merit.

[Stazro]

The Reapers have been using the same tech for hundreds of millions of years. They are not the peak of intellect and ingenuity, they are a plateaued group of illogical living blights.

 

Indeed. We are told Harbinger is both the first and the strongest of the reapers. In hundreds of millions of years they didn't come up with anything to build better reapers?! It seems to me like they only use what they were originally given; their only innovation relates to transforming organics - and that's probably just rehashing principles that were around since Harbinger.