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ME:A's plot is on shaky ground without making Destroy canon


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#101
AtreiyaN7

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Ridiculous - ME:A is not on shaky ground if x/y/z ending is not canonized since the Ark probably (at least, this is the most reasonable assumption one can make) leaves at some point before or during the events of ME3.

 

And if it takes place after ME3 for some reason, then hey, they can canonize whatever they want - your claim that it has to be the Destroy ending is strictly based on your very obvious bias and desire for it to be so, not because pure logic actually dictates that it be so. For example, in the Control ending, Shepard pretty much turns AI, and as far as I can tell, he/she/it basically functions as a protector/sentinel (assuming your character isn't a jerk of a Renegade anyway). I don't recall any kind of fiat being decreed about permanently corralling all intelligent organic life to the Milky Way.

 

Your argument is flawed as far as I'm concerned.


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#102
MrObnoxiousUK

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You said all that already in you OP.

 

One Saying you want for  nothing in Synthesis in hyperbole, and false, More tech, better lives means more people more expansion which means you need more space, perfect reason to branch out into and andromeda.

 

two you miss understand the Control ending the Reapers don't necessarily have a say in who goes where, maybe if your shep was renegade, but Paragon Guardian makes it clear all hes gonna do is protect the peace. So its entirely possible for them to leave for andromeda.

You are assuming that people in the Synthesis ending will have the same drives, needs and passions that an irrational, free thinking, chaotic sentient would need.

I would argue they would be a society that only adds to their numbers when it is expedient to do so and not from a biological imperative.

As for the Control ending, that is the  Galactic Overlord ending in my eyes, where everyone is strictly governed and made to toe the line or else. I doubt they would let a group of "Rebels" flee to found a new potential threat that might bring the threat of the cycles happening once more. 



#103
Sylvius the Mad

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The mandate itself was broad in nature so it's logical to apply it to other galaxies.

That's not how logic works.

It's plausible to apply it to other galaxies, but if it were logical to do so then there would be no other possible conclusion, and that conclusion would be guaranteed to be true.

We don't know what constraints were placed on the Reapers, either intentionally or by accident. We don't know what reasons the Reapers' creators might have had for doing so.

Why are you assuming that things for which we have no evidence don't exist?

#104
Bronze65

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Anything can happen because the endings aren't real and IT theory is true. 



#105
Former_Fiend

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Anything can happen because the endings aren't real and IT theory is true. 

 

Firstly, IT theory is redundant.

 

Secondly, it isn't. I mean, I'm as big a fan and supporter of the Death of the Author thesis as the next guy, but that ship has sailed.



#106
Sylvius the Mad

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The crucible is already taking a huge strain on the galaxies resources and manpower their wouldn't be enough of either to carry out such a project.

The research could have been ongoing for decades prior. I didn't say this was a recent initiative. It also may not have been intended for this purpose.

Suddenly finding such technology during the reaper war will come off as contrived/too convenient its doesn't make for good writing. Not to mention the reaper's leave some their technology to be found on purpose so no other species can technologically surpass them "with it you evolve along the paths we desire."

It could be found quite a bit later. We just need the Ark to escape the galaxy during the war, not necessarily have a viable plan beyond that.

Why should they care about us? The reaper war is of no concern to them and the reaper's aren't going to attack them anytime soon.

That reason only needs to be explained as well as the Reapers' reason was. So basically not at all.

And it might have nothing at all to do with the war. The intergalactic benevolence could be intervening simply because we reached intergalactic space. What we left behind might not matter.

You're throwing up really shallow objections. We don't need to know all the details for the lore to be credible. We need only not to be able to see contradictions.

No it doesn't, foreshadowing needs to be planned and properly built up we see none of that in ME3, its going to come out of nowhere like star child and Lazarus project.

Unless you can cite specific prior references to the star child or Lazarus, they're nothing alike.

The ark at least got mentioned once. And one mention counts as foreshadowing.

#107
Drone223

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That's not how logic works.

It's plausible to apply it to other galaxies, but if it were logical to do so then there would be no other possible conclusion, and that conclusion would be guaranteed to be true.

 

We don't know what constraints were placed on the Reapers, either intentionally or by accident. We don't know what reasons the Reapers' creators might have had for doing so.

Why are you assuming that things for which we have no evidence don't exist?

 

 

The leviathans themselves told Shepard the mandate they gave the catalyst "To preserve all life" it was obvious that the mandate has no restrictions so it can be interpreted in a number of ways.
 

The research could have been ongoing for decades prior. I didn't say this was a recent initiative. It also may not have been intended for this purpose.
 

If that research has been ongoing prior to the trilogy why isn't it already implemented by the time of the trilogy thye had 2000+ to do it? There be no need for ships to discharge static build near planets.

 

It could be found quite a bit later. We just need the Ark to escape the galaxy during the war, not necessarily have a viable plan beyond that.

 

 

You do need a plan beyond that since there are a lot of things that need to be taken into consideration such as finding habitable planets, having enough supplies to sustain the colony and defense against hostile species in which the people will have practically none its going to be a very demanding project and the war is already consuming too much resources.
 

 

That reason only needs to be explained as well as the Reapers' reason was. So basically not at all.

 

Hand waving the explanation is lazy writing simple as that.

 

 

And it might have nothing at all to do with the war. The intergalactic benevolence could be intervening simply because we reached intergalactic space.

 

 

Things rarely are as simple as that, if we nothing to offer them then they have little reason to care about us.

 

What we left behind might not matter.

 

They do matter actually, leaving our people our own people to die without fighting till the bitter end.

 

You're throwing up really shallow objections. We don't need to know all the details for the lore to be credible. We need only not to be able to see contradictions.

 

The details are important since consistency is important in story telling if the details are inconsistent then people won't be able to suspended their disbelief it'd also be lazy writing.

 

Unless you can cite specific prior references to the star child or Lazarus, they're nothing alike.

 

Star child and Lazarus are alike since they both received no build up they both come out of nowhere.

 

 

The ark at least got mentioned once. And one mention counts as foreshadowing.

It didn't, one line  that can be easily taken for something else isn't foreshadowing.



#108
Former_Fiend

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They do matter actually, leaving our people our own people to die without fighting till the bitter end.

 

 

Ok, I'm tired of this argument.

 

I've only seen it twice and I am sick and tired of it.

 

Screw this "fighting to the bitter end" bull. There is no nobility in mass suicide. We have a greater responsibility; preserving the continuity of not just humanity, but all of galactic civilization. 


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#109
Sylvius the Mad

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The leviathans themselves told Shepard the mandate they gave the catalyst "To preserve all life" it was obvious that the mandate has no restrictions so it can be interpreted in a number of ways.

It has no obvious restrictions. That's not the same thing.

Do we know that Reaper programming allows for the possibility of life outside the galaxy? How do we know that?

We need to know that in order for logic to lead anywhere nesr your conclusion.

If that research has been ongoing prior to the trilogy why isn't it already implemented by the time of the trilogy thye had 2000+ to do it?

And you ask this question because all scientific advancements have alresdy occurred?

It isn't inplemebted because they didn't figure it out yet. Necessity is the mother of invention. Or because bureaucracy slowed it down. Or because whoever was developing it wanted to keep it a secret.

Why are you so convinced that there's no answer to questions just because you don't know for sure what the answer is?

You do need a plan beyond that since there are a lot of things that need to be taken into consideration such as finding habitable planets, having enough supplies to sustain the colony and defense against hostile species in which the people will have practically none its going to be a very demanding project and the war is already consuming too much resources.

None of those things will matter if they get killed by the Reapers. You can't win game 7 without first getting to game 7.

Let's assume they have the means to get the ark out of the Milky Way. Let's further assume that their destruction by the Reapers is imminent. How would any of that other stuff be relevant? Escaping the Reapers now allows future development. Getting killed by the Reapers does not.

Or do you think they'd just accept destruction because they hadn't worked out ever detail in advance?

Hand waving the explanation is lazy writing simple as that.

No one is suggesting they will do that. But to hold your opinion, you need to be confident that no acceptable explanation is possible, and that's an absurd position.

Things rarely are as simple as that, if we nothing to offer them then they have little reason to care about us.

It would make about as much sense as the Reapers telling us that they were beyond our comprehension in the first game. That narrative standard has already been established.

They do matter actually, leaving our people our own people to die without fighting till the bitter end.

They're not running away. They're doing an important job to preserve civilization. How does staying behind to get killed help?

And, your question was about why it would matter to the intergalactic benevolvence.

The details are important since consistency is important in story telling if the details are inconsistent then people won't be able to suspended their disbelief it'd also be lazy writing.

They can't explain every detail. You have to some of the work to suspend your disbelief. If there's a hole, just don't fill it with something that breaks the story. That's all you have to do. Don't invent inconsistent lore.

Star child and Lazarus are alike since they both received no build up they both come out of nowhere.

And the Ark received one line. One line is more than nothing. Not the same.

It didn't, one line that can be easily taken for something else isn't foreshadowing.

That it can be taken for something else is what makes it good foreshadowing. Foreshadowing shouldn't be obvious. Then it would be telegraphing, not foreshadowing.

How am I the one defending ME3? I hated ME3.

#110
spinachdiaper

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Bioware is sliding Mass Effect to Andromeda like how Bethesda pulls a change of venue in The Elder Scrolls, but at least Bethesda isn't rectonning or skirting the established lore. Bioware should be taking a page from the Deus Ex universe and pick the ending that can further the continuation of the Mass Effect universe. And once again Synthesis makes everyone a Borg, Control has the Reapers hanging over head permanently, and Refuse leaves the universe in ruins without exception.



#111
AlanC9

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Bioware is sliding Mass Effect to Andromeda like how Bethesda pulls a change of venue in The Elder Scrolls, but at least Bethesda isn't rectonning or skirting the established lore.


Really? I seem to remember a pretty massive retcon -- or something -- after Daggerfall.

#112
Killroy

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I think we can all agree that the real reason they would be on shaky ground with Andromeda is that they didn't hire me to write the game.

#113
WarBaby2

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't MEA supposed to be some kind of reboot? I mean, the way I understood it, the secret N7 program to colonize the Andromeda galaxy was started some time before the reaper war, so - without utilizing the mass effect gate technology, which is pretty much a given since gates don't lead to other galaxies - the mission would have been well underway before the ME3 story-line happened.

 

Maybe I'm assuming too much here, but I think MEA (and the following series, if there is any) will leave the whole of ME1-3 behind completely... no contact, no return. So, since each of the ME3 endings needed the gate technology to actually have an effect, none of the endings would be felt in MEA's "new" galaxy.

 

TL;DR: No gates, no ME3 endings - ergo, no gates in Andromeda, no issue.



#114
AlanC9

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Yeah, that's how everyone's betting.

#115
Killroy

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There is no "secret N7 program to colonize Andromeda" because N7 is like the Navy SEALS, not NASA.

#116
WarBaby2

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There is no "secret N7 program to colonize Andromeda" because N7 is like the Navy SEALS, not NASA.

I know, but the new main character(s) is(are) supposedly N7...



#117
Killroy

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I know, but the new main character(s) is(are) supposedly N7...


So? N7 are operators. They don't plan their missions. They're not scientists or tacticians, they're soldiers. Do you think SEAL Team Six did the leg work that went into finding bin Laden, got the go ahead from the President, planned the entire strike and carried it out themselves?

#118
WarBaby2

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So? N7 are operators. They don't plan their missions. They're not scientists or tacticians, they're soldiers. Do you think SEAL Team Six did the leg work that went into finding bin Laden, got the go ahead from the President, planned the entire strike and carried it out themselves?

It still was a SEALS mission, no matter who planned it, no?



#119
Killroy

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It still was a SEALS mission, no matter who planned it, no?


They did the raid, but they had no part in the work that lead to the raid. The SEALS aren't an intelligence gathering organization, just like N7 isn't a space exploration organization.

#120
WarBaby2

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They did the raid, but they had no part in the work that lead to the raid. The SEALS aren't an intelligence gathering organization, just like N7 isn't a space exploration organization.

Ok ok, you win. It's a secret mission CARRIED OUT by N7 soldiers... whatever. ;)



#121
Drone223

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Ok, I'm tired of this argument.

 

I've only seen it twice and I am sick and tired of it.

 

Screw this "fighting to the bitter end" bull. There is no nobility in mass suicide. We have a greater responsibility; preserving the continuity of not just humanity, but all of galactic civilization. 

Fighting till the bitter end isn't mass suicide, you flee when you've exhausted all options against the reaper's what is being suggested is fleeing when there still a possibility to win.



#122
Killroy

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Fighting till the bitter end isn't mass suicide, you flee when you've exhausted all options against the reaper's what is being suggested is fleeing when there still a possibility to win.


You seem to be completely unaware of the concept of diminishing returns. Exhaust all resources? What would you be saving?
This is what I mean when I say you're illogical.

#123
Iakus

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That's not how logic works.

It's plausible to apply it to other galaxies, but if it were logical to do so then there would be no other possible conclusion, and that conclusion would be guaranteed to be true.

We don't know what constraints were placed on the Reapers, either intentionally or by accident. We don't know what reasons the Reapers' creators might have had for doing so.

Why are you assuming that things for which we have no evidence don't exist?

We're talking about "logic" that inspires a creation to mulch its creators.

 

And both the Leviathans and the Catalyst agree that its mandate is to preserve life.  At any cost.


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#124
Iakus

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't MEA supposed to be some kind of reboot? I mean, the way I understood it, the secret N7 program to colonize the Andromeda galaxy was started some time before the reaper war, so - without utilizing the mass effect gate technology, which is pretty much a given since gates don't lead to other galaxies - the mission would have been well underway before the ME3 story-line happened.

 

Maybe I'm assuming too much here, but I think MEA (and the following series, if there is any) will leave the whole of ME1-3 behind completely... no contact, no return. So, since each of the ME3 endings needed the gate technology to actually have an effect, none of the endings would be felt in MEA's "new" galaxy.

 

TL;DR: No gates, no ME3 endings - ergo, no gates in Andromeda, no issue.

THe problem is, the technology needed to bridge the gulf between galaxies without relays simply doesn't exist in this cycle.  The Reapers might have something like it.  But anyone else,?  No way.  Not unless it's something of a truly unique event that can't be easily replicated.


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#125
Iakus

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What's your point? Obviously the Reaper drive can't actually violate the laws of physics, since it works. We just don't know how.

Are you maybe saying that humans had a theory about mass effect fields before discovering eezo? That's not really stated anywhere -- the theories that they were working on at Gagarin Station were bad, according to Kaidan. We don't have any information about the state of theoretical physics in 2143. Or afterward, for that matter -- it's not even clear from the Codex that the Citadel races understand why eezo does what it does.

I'm saying that humans had reached the point where they could research FTL technology on their own.  Fortunately, for them, Mars had a digital copy "My First Eezo Core" by Buggy D Prothean in the archives the Enkindlers left for them.  As well as a quanity of refined eezo .  WHich pointed them in the right direction.

 

It's not like humanity had to blow up some Prothean warships in a genocidal war, sift through the wreckage, and find enough pieces to reverse-engineer into something useful without getting themselves indoctrinated...


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