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[Former_Fiend]

https://www.youtube....etailpage#t=169

 

"To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost"

 

https://www.youtube....etailpage#t=234

 

THe entire nonsense argument of the Catalyst.  WHere do you hear "galaxy"  It's all life., all synthetics, all organics that it's talking about.  There is no such limitation in its programming.  I daresay that this is the problem with it:  that it has no constraints or limitations in its thinking.

 

And heck, even if it did have such a limitation, even if it is limited to "preserve" life in this galaxy, it has to consider outside threats.  Namely organic life in other galaxies, which would build synthetics, which would surpass and kill them, and eventually come to the Milky way and do the same.

 

Why should we assume an explanation that would make the next story difficult?  I'm not.  THe explanation we got already did the job.  I'm looking at the logical extension of what we have already been shown.  If it makes the next story difficult, it's the writers' own fault for delivering just a cr*ppy explanation and then continuing to stand by it like it's a piece of brilliant literature.

 

THe Catalyst's logic is in broad, sweeping generalizations, and at no point is ever limited to "just" this galaxy.  There is no reason to think its interest is in just this galaxy.  It outright states that without the Reapers, synthetics would inevitably destroy all organics.  

 

There's also no reason to assume that the Leviathan's statement is the complete truth regarding the Catalyst's programming; this Leviathan wasn't alive at the time, it says so explicitly that it is the descendant of the originals, so it wasn't actually there. We also have no reason to assume they have perfect genetic memory or anything that would allow it to know the exact circumstance beyond the general details. And, of course, it's giving a summary of events to Shepard as a courtesy. That doesn't necessarily translate to a full and complete report, just the quick and dirty rundown.

 

The catalyst was also designed to monitor and solve a problem for the Leviathan's empire and the Leviathan's empire was confined to the Milky Way; that is one point they seem rather explicit on. 

[Silverin]

I don't really see the problem of choosing Destroy for ME:A for the references to the past trilogy. It happens in a lot of games and it's not a big issue. Here are a few examples...

- Mass Effect 2: Shepard can DIE at the end, during the suicide mission. And it was not a problem for ME3. If you die at the end of ME2, you can't import your save because ME3 considers you survived the suicide mission. ME3 just ignore this specific end of ME2, which was incompatible with the story of ME3 where Shepard is alive...
- Leliana in DA:O. During the temple quest, you can KILL her. And in DA:I, she is alive and is one of the main characters, even if you chose to kill her in DA:O. Bioware just decided she would be alive in DA:I and they ignored the fact you could kill her in DA:O. It's just a choice they did, and it's not a big issue... (they included a short dialogue about it in DA:I if you killed her in DA:O, but it was not necessary in my opinion)
- Bioshock 1 and 2. At the end of Bioshock 1, you can escape Rapture ("happy" ending), or take control of Rapture and become a kind of crazy leader ("bad" ending). In Bioschok 2, happening 10 years after Bioshock 1, you play another character in Rapture, and you can hear a discussion where you understand the hero of Bioshock 1 escaped Rapture. So the "bad" ending of the first game was just ignored, because it was problematic for the story of the second game. It's not a problem in my opinion...

The idea of humans leaving the Milky Way before or during the Reapers war, why not. The only interest of this theory is to be able to avoid the ME3 ending question. But avoiding the question is not the only solution. You can make a choice too. And Destroy choice is very simple. BTW in my opinion it should have been the only possible ending in ME3. I chose this end, and by curiosity I watched the other endings on Youtube, and it looked so illogical or WTF from Shepard's point of view. But we're not here to debate about the best/favorite ME3 ending, everyone has its favorite and its arguments. But for ME:A story, Destroy ending is the easiest choice. The other easy option would be to totally IGNORE the first trilogy. Why not. I don't know why, but I think Bioware will probably choose this option... or something similar.

Anyway, let's wait and see!! We will be surprised

[Iakus]

There's also no reason to assume that the Leviathan's statement is the complete truth regarding the Catalyst's programming; this Leviathan wasn't alive at the time, it says so explicitly that it is the descendant of the originals, so it wasn't actually there. We also have no reason to assume they have perfect genetic memory or anything that would allow it to know the exact circumstance beyond the general details. And, of course, it's giving a summary of events to Shepard as a courtesy. That doesn't necessarily translate to a full and complete report, just the quick and dirty rundown.

 

The catalyst was also designed to monitor and solve a problem for the Leviathan's empire and the Leviathan's empire was confined to the Milky Way; that is one point they seem rather explicit on. 

It's also a DLC intended to retroactively foreshadow the existence of the Catalyst and be an extension of the "clarity and closure" for EC.  It's safe to say that, like the Catalyst, we're supposed to accept the Leviathan's explanation as Veritas.

 

And while yes, the Catalyst was designed to solve a problem for the Leviathan's empire, it's pretty obvious it has gone far, far beyond all that.  The Leviathan's were mulched, as they were "part of the problem"  If they're dead or in hiding, no empire.  No empire, no problem.  So why continue the harvests for a billion years to solve the problem of an empire you harvested before there were even Reapers?

[Iakus]

I think the title provides a clear separation.

Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 3 - the entries of a trilogy, and aptly titled.

Also, the devs have been warning us away from calling the next thing ME4 for awhile now.

Yeah, well, unless Shepard's trilogy gets relegated to "Mass Effect Legends" it's still part of the same universe.

[Iakus]

What do you suppose happened to the dinosaurs, the mastadons, the humble dodo bird? Or all of the specimens that were killed, rejected, or turned into reaper troops?

Clearly, its interpretation of its mandate did not require it to preserve every specimen of every life-form.

 

 

Coulda happened...

[GalacticWolf5]

If ME:A just tries to sweep the mess that was ME3 ending structure under the rug without a short and sweat gloss over of the who, where and why of ME3's endgame then ignored inconsistencies will eat away at any and all plot forwarding development. First of all Synthesis would preclude all of ME:A as would likely the Refusal option. Then we look at Control and realistically the Reapers would prevent any and all attempts at a organic being exodus. Finally all that's left is Destroy which was the most selected player ending (even if I didn't go that way in my game) and it's the only one that can make any sense furthering the Mass Effect Universe.

 

Who ever said we left the Milky Way after ME3? We could have left during the Reaper War.

 

Now, something that really bothers me:

 

Then we look at Control and realistically the Reapers would prevent any and all attempts at a organic being exodus.

 

Why?

 

Why would Shepard prevent Organics from exploring another galaxy?

[Drone223]

Where is it said that it bankrupted the galaxy, because that is a piece of dialogue I most definitely missed. And can you be absolutely sure that the source that says that wasn't being hyperbolic?

 

Honestly the idea that it bankrupted the galaxy is, frankly, ridiculous in and of itself. I would have absolutely no problem if they retconned that nonsense, assuming it was meant as a serious statement in the first place.

"What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers."

 

That pretty much speaks for itself the crucible is basically draining a lot of the galaxies resources.

 

Irrelevant - refugees.
 

It is relevant because the whole feat is a huge risk even a minor mistake could cause the whole feat to go belly up.

 

 

They can't have thrown everything at the Crucible otherwise there wouldn't be enough resources to get to Andromeda ... and we already know that there were enough since that's where the new game is set.

 

See first comment, during ME3 the galaxy is throwing all of its resources into the crucible and the war effort.

 

 

Doesn't need an excuse - the fact of the matter is that BioWare can do whatever they want and wave it away with space magic if they like. You don't have to like it.

 

You can carry on constructing convoluted reasons as to why it's impossible and it changes nothing - it's obviously possible, it's happening.

 

Hand waving is what got us star child, synthesis and Lazarus project in the first place if Bioware writes something poorly they should be called out on it.

 

 

You do know, that the milky way contains something like over 46,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg's worth of materials right? 

 

Manpower, mining and refinery ressources maybe, but the catalyst is a drop in the bucket in regards to raw materials. 

 

Only 1% of the has been explored during the time of the trilogy finding new planets to mine during a reaper war is easier said than done. The war itself is also taking a huge strain on resources.

[Drone223]

That's true, and also not at all relevant to the point I was making.
 

There is no reason to believe that the mandate is limited to just one galaxy.

 

They might not have been trying. They make several assumptions about the course of technological development the organic races will take. They appear not to be innovative.

 

Given how the reaper's existed for billions of year that really hard to believe.

 

 

That's certainly true. Not having a plan would be extremely reckless, and very foolish if you had the option not to do that. That option may not have been available.

If they can come up with a plan for fleeing the galaxy then they can easily come up with a plan to survive in another galaxy their no excuse for them not to.

 

Yes, but there's also a chance they'll fail regardless. The ark is a hedge. The ark isn't leaving because the Reapers are going to win. The ark is leaving because the Reapers might win.

If their going to flee regardless then why bother with the crucible then?

 

Staying behind to fight puts all civilization's eggs in one basket. The ark is an attempt to change the rules of the game, so that the Reapers can't win.

 

It doesn't the reaper's still win since they successful done what they came to do the harvest.

 

What are you talking about?

 

What is the reason to save us, what do species of the MW have to offer that the species in Andromeda don't have?

 

They're not necessarily breaking their lore. They might be - BioWare doesn't seem to mind doing that - but we don't yet have reason to believe that they are.

You're jumping to conclusions.

 

Given how the trilogy was made up as Bioware went a long which resulted in several lore breaking inconsistencies, it won't be surprising if Bioware is doing something similar to Andromeda.

[Drone223]

If you're referring to this note from the Spectre Terminal:
 
First Irune Financial Report
This financial report is for top-level embassy access only. According to financial estimates from First Irune Investment Trusts, a division of Elkoss Combine, the Citadel races cannot sustain the cost of the war effort for more than one year. Although military spending has stimulated certain market sectors, shortages and rationing in other areas has depressed the financial system. Civilian discretionary spending has fallen except in entertainment areas like escapist vids or drinking. First Irune is borrowing heavily to provide funds for key functions across the Citadel, but if the war does not end within the next year, galactic financial collapse is inevitable.

... I'd suggest you read it again.

The reapers destroyed comm buoys, wrecked planetary communication networks, destroyed manufacturing hubs, harvested the workers, and basically drove everyone into survival mode. The Citadel took on vast numbers of refugees, which put a strain on its food and medical supplies. Leaving a lot of the (surviving) citizenry without homes, without jobs, without the means to acquire or manufacture additional supplies tends to put economies in collapse.

Note: That has nothing to do with the construction of the Crucible.
 

Obvious to whom? The Crucible was a (supposedly) secret project; it's not like every man, woman, and child in the galaxy was put to work on it. You may have noticed that quite a few people on the Citadel were going about their business as usual, while plenty of refugees sat around doing nothing.

As for building materials, we have this gem from the Shadow Broker's Terminal:

Email from Professor T'Kisha to Dr. Oduol
I was calling every supply depot stationed around the Crucible to find enough pure platinum for the Crucible's primary trigger inlay. We barely had enough left to coat a coffeemaker.
An hour later, a ship pulled up with sixteen tons of platinum "courtesy of the Shadow Broker." Then it flew away to scavenge more materials for the project. The ship's captain emailed me after, saying the Broker "would stay in touch with our needs."

That's great, but I'm checking my computer for bugs.

Even though the Broker had lost some agents (and lost contact with others), she still seemed to manage to scavenge materials needed for the Crucible. Impact on galactic economy: practically zero.

"What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers."

 

Hackett also states is going to be the biggest construction the galaxy has ever seen combined with the resources that being used for the war effort as well its going to be hard to build another project on a similar scale as the crucible.

[AlanC9]

Hackett also states is going to be the biggest construction the galaxy has ever seen combined with the resources that being used for the war effort as well its going to be hard to build another project on a similar scale as the crucible.

Who said they were going to build another project on a similar scale?

[Drone223]

Who said they were going to build another project on a similar scale?

Given the nature of the ARK project its unlikely to be small scale.

[Iakus]

Who said they were going to build another project on a similar scale?

You think a ship that can span the gulf of dark space with a live crew is going to be a small-scale project?

[Former_Fiend]

It's also a DLC intended to retroactively foreshadow the existence of the Catalyst and be an extension of the "clarity and closure" for EC.  It's safe to say that, like the Catalyst, we're supposed to accept the Leviathan's explanation as Veritas.

 

And while yes, the Catalyst was designed to solve a problem for the Leviathan's empire, it's pretty obvious it has gone far, far beyond all that.  The Leviathan's were mulched, as they were "part of the problem"  If they're dead or in hiding, no empire.  No empire, no problem.  So why continue the harvests for a billion years to solve the problem of an empire you harvested before there were even Reapers?

 

My point is that it's vague and open to interpretation enough that, if Bioware wanted, they could retroactively say that the reapers limited their activities to the Milky Way and it wouldn't really violate anything. The leviathan's say "preserve life", which one can assume can extend past the Milky Way, but at no point does either the Leviathan or the Catalyst specify "all life, in this galaxy and beyond" or anything to that effect. 

 

It could go either way, is what I'm saying.

[themikefest]

You think a ship that can span the gulf of dark space with a live crew is going to be a small-scale project?

That would depend on how big the ship/ark/whatever is. The people might've got a couple of used dreadnoughts from the local shipyard to fix up.

[Pasquale1234]

"What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers."
 
Hackett also states is going to be the biggest construction the galaxy has ever seen combined with the resources that being used for the war effort as well its going to be hard to build another project on a similar scale as the crucible.

Drawing =/= draining.

I can draw water from every tap in my house. I could leave them all running forever, and never drain the local water system dry.

But I give up. You don't want to leave the Milky Way, and will grasp at any straw you can find and hold on for dear life - as if it's going to make any difference.

The next game takes place in Andromeda. Mass Effect probably won't ever return to the Milky Way, and it might never be mentioned again.

[Pasquale1234]

My point is that it's vague and open to interpretation enough that, if Bioware wanted, they could retroactively say that the reapers limited their activities to the Milky Way and it wouldn't really violate anything. The leviathan's say "preserve life", which one can assume can extend past the Milky Way, but at no point does either the Leviathan or the Catalyst specify "all life, in this galaxy and beyond" or anything to that effect. 
 
It could go either way, is what I'm saying.

The Leviathan did specify that the intelligence used the entire galaxy to experiment. It didn't say galactic group or cluster, just galaxy - and the experiment is ongoing.

[Killroy]

You think a ship that can span the gulf of dark space with a live crew is going to be a small-scale project?

Show me where it's been confirmed that an ark will be crossing dark space between the two galaxies. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Given the nature of the ARK project its unlikely to be small scale.

What is the nature of the Ark project? You seem to think you know everything about the game so please enlighten us.


Look at Interstellar. They could have colonized a planet with a tiny crew on a tiny ship. They had the genetic material to make enough babies to colonize. Why couldn't ARKCON be the same?

[Sylvius the Mad]

There is no reason to believe that the mandate is limited to just one galaxy.

There's also no reason to believe it isn't, which is what matters.

You're (incorrectly) assuming an excluded middle.

Given how the Reapers have existed for billions of years that's really hard to believe.

Do you have a reason not to believe it, along with any other possible explanation?

You're advancing an extremely rigid position, and you don't have anything like enough evidence to support it.

I'm advancing a position based on ambiguity. The lack of evidence strengthens my position.

If they can come up with a plan for fleeing the galaxy then they can easily come up with a plan to survive in another galaxy their no excuse for them not to.

If that's so obvious, then let's just assume they did. Problem solved.

If their going to flee regardless then why bother with the crucible then?

Because the ark also might not work. And it can't take everyone.

Do you not know what a hedge is? To hedge one's bets?

The ideal solution is that the Reapers are defeated and the vast majority of civilization in the Milky Way escapes unscathed. It would be foolish not to pursue that objective.

But if victory there is far from certain (and it is), it would be similarly foolish not to have contingency plans.

It doesn't the reaper's still win since they successful done what they came to do the harvest.

The Reapers' objective is to destroy all the technologically advanced organic life. If the ark escapes, the Reapers have failed.

If you think the Reapers' objective is to harvest the organics, then it doesn't really matter if they succeed. Civilization's goal is to survive the Reapers' attack. The ark can let them succeed even if the Reapers succeed also. The ark prevents the conflict from being a zero-sum game.

In economic terms, this is akin to market disruption.

What is the reason to save us, what do species of the MW have to offer that the species in Andromeda don't have?

Why do you need an answer for that? Why can't the intergalactic benevolence have motives that are unknown to us?

That we don't know an answer doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist. Do you disagree? Do you think that information doesn't exist unless we possess it?

Given how the trilogy was made up as Bioware went a long which resulted in several lore breaking inconsistencies, it won't be surprising if Bioware is doing something similar to Andromeda.

Nor would I. The fake science alone was laughable from the beginning.

[AlanC9]

You think a ship that can span the gulf of dark space with a live crew is going to be a small-scale project?

Smaller than the Crucible? Sure, a lot smaller.

[Former_Fiend]

It straight up amazes me how some people can't grasp the concept of "contingency plans".

 

If the denizens of the milky way were smart, there would be - and hopefully are - dozens of contingency plans in place to preserve galactic life. Not only should we be planning an escape incase the crucible fails, but there should be plans in place for long term cryostasis like Illos and Eden Prime, at the very least.

 

The crucible plan has a one in four chance of not working and dooming us all, based entirely on the whims of one marine suffering from blood loss and possible brain trauma. There is no way I'd want to put all my eggs in that basket.

[Iakus]

Show me where it's been confirmed that an ark will be crossing dark space between the two galaxies. Go ahead. I'll wait.
 

It's either that or wormholes.  You really wanna argue which is less preposterous?

 

 

Smaller than the Crucible? Sure, a lot smaller.

 

A lot smaller?  Really?  Getting an eezo core to run for centuries without discharge or refueling when the current ones can be measured in 2-3 days?

 

Heck at least the Crucible had a blueprint to crib off of.

[Iakus]

The Leviathan did specify that the intelligence used the entire galaxy to experiment. It didn't say galactic group or cluster, just galaxy - and the experiment is ongoing.

Yes., the galaxy was an experiment.  Not its entire mandate.  It's mandate was to preserve life at all cost.  No qualifiers.

[Iakus]

That would depend on how big the ship/ark/whatever is. The people might've got a couple of used dreadnoughts from the local shipyard to fix up.

Space considerations are way down at the bottom of the list of problems.

 

Getting from point A to point B is a bit bigger.

[Killroy]

It's either that or wormholes.  You really wanna argue which is less preposterous?

Neither is preposterous.
A Reaper's corpse landed on the Citadel. Someone in a position of power could have retrieved it's drive core and reverse engineered it.
Wormholes are an accepted and potentially naturally occurring phenomenon.

[Drone223]

My point is that it's vague and open to interpretation enough that, if Bioware wanted, they could retroactively say that the reapers limited their activities to the Milky Way and it wouldn't really violate anything. The leviathan's say "preserve life", which one can assume can extend past the Milky Way, but at no point does either the Leviathan or the Catalyst specify "all life, in this galaxy and beyond" or anything to that effect. 

 

It could go either way, is what I'm saying.

Bioware has bad history when it comes to retcons they generally end up being poorly implemented.

 

Drawing =/= draining.

I can draw water from every tap in my house. I could leave them all running forever, and never drain the local water system dry.

So were exactly are they going to get the necessary resources and man power to build this ark? Because anything of value is being sent to the reaper war or the crucible and they are they are both very costly and they have to fight the war with what they got at the time of the invasion.

 

But I give up. You don't want to leave the Milky Way, and will grasp at any straw you can find and hold on for dear life - as if it's going to make any difference.

 

There are a lot of issues with leaving the galaxy and a lot of it has to do with writing.

 

The next game takes place in Andromeda. Mass Effect probably won't ever return to the Milky Way, and it might never be mentioned again.

 

Then Bioware might as well start a new IP there is no point in saving the MW since its going to be ditched forever and thus make the whole trilogy pointless.