216 réponses à ce sujet

[Jay P]

Yes, if you are just joining a game you should have all your lives and potions.  If you run out of lives and potions, leave, then rejoin, you are no longer a new player to that game session, so it is unfair that you get the advantages of a new player.

 

 

Bioware hasn't said that an old player shouldn't get the same advantages as a new player when joining/rejoining.  That's more the communities opinion, not Bioware's.  The game doesn't differentiate between a new player and an old player, that is a distinction the community is making based upon the communities ethical position.

 

 

Personally, I think it should track your lives lost and potions used and not refund them to you on rejoin.  It can track XP gained before you left then pick up where you started when you rejoin, so why not lives and potions?  I don't think it is working as intended, but it really isn't all that big of a deal, so whatever.

 

 

I'm not sure how I got swept up into this, seeing as I've never done it and likely never will.  I do agree it's not a big deal, but I think I am probably done defending a position I don't really care about.  It's been an interesting debate though, as a time waster sitting at my desk.

[MagicalMaster]

It has been like this since launch. People even used to swap characters. I never did but apparently that was common practice. They have since removed the ability to do that.

Could you explain what you mean by this?

What billy with tom is fine.

Why?

And why is Billy leaving to let Tom take his place temporarily better than Billy leaving and rejoining? Either way you get a person with fresh lives/potions.

If anything I'd probably prefer if the game was designed in a way that avoided these issues (like there was no "death" limit (see ME3MP) and potions just had a two minute cooldown each or something)...but given the current state, I can't even think of a good way to "fix" this issue that doesn't hurt people playing completely legitimately.

[Proto]

Could you explain what you mean by this?

 

They would leave and re-enter games to promote.

 

Example:

 

Start the game with level 20 Reaver.

 

Play till Zone 5 or until all that remains is the commander.

 

Leave game.

 

Promote Reaver. (switch character)

 

Rejoin game-in-progress and collect XP for their level 1.

[Jay P]

Today people, we will be discussing the difference between a cheat and an exploit.

 

 

[MagicalMaster]

They would leave and re-enter games to promote.

I've seen people do that within the last few weeks...

[Proto]

I've seen people do that within the last few weeks...

 

Working as intended.

 

Now you lose the XP gained by the character that leaves, before you kept it. 

[Ghost Of N7_SP3CTR3]

The only way to stop it would be to completely do away with private lobbies(which I'm pretty sure nobody would like to see).There's nothing else that wouldn't break this game and fix your issue on the OP.

It's available to do this in most any mp online co-op game that allows private lobbies.Why?Because there's NOTHING they can do about it.

Congrats on another troll thread.

[JAMiAM]

do you want people banned for this?

I don't.  I only want BioWare to issue a clarification on whether they intended it to be abused as it is, and whether or not they plan on fixing the exploitability of the action.  I just want everyone playing according to Hoyle. 

[JAMiAM]

Fair enough.  

 

That maybe a stretch too far.

 

Though, I can't imagine that, despite the statement, the walking fortress nerf was completely unrelated to its use with counterstrike and the bolters.

 

And despite the tenuous nature of that analogy, reentry is working as intended.  While there is no tooltip, you are supposed to get new potions and "lives" every time you enter a match, whether it is at the start or in the middle.

Yes, but only once.  The exploit allows you to enter/re-enter with infinite amount of lives and potions.

[Proto]

I don't.  I only want BioWare to issue a clarification on whether they intended it to be abused as it is, and whether or not they plan on fixing the exploitability of the action.  I just want everyone playing according to Hoyle. 

 

No, Bioware needs to keep their mouth shut until they implement a fix. Whether it is intended to be abused doesn't matter if abusing it has no repercussions. 

[lJustAlexl]

Working as intended.

 

Now you lose the XP gained by the character that leaves, before you kept it. 

 

Someone on these boards mentioned that the exp remains, but only if you rejoin with the same character. If you return with another character, all exp earned by the previous character is lost (or so they said, anyway).

 

If that's true, it might explain why people have been doing it recently. I just assumed the person who said it was mistaken so I didn't ask.

[Proto]

Someone on these boards mentioned that the exp remains, but only if you rejoin with the same character. If you return with another character, all exp earned by the previous character is lost (or so they said, anyway).

 

Right, that happens with disconnects sometimes. Sometimes you get the XP you earned sometimes you don't. I've never left a game to promote so I wouldn't know whether coming back with the same character gives you the XP you earned at 20. 

 

That would just be another "bush league" tactic in my book, until it's fixed if it's ever fixed.

[JAMiAM]

So do you auto-attack cancel to increase auto-attack damage?

 

Because that seems more obviously like an exploit than reentry.

Good question, but I feel your conclusion is off.

 

First of all, BioWare, at least since ME2, has actively built into its games reload/animation cancelling.  Do I like it?  No, I think it allows all kinds of cheesiness, in the guise of 'mad skillz'.  That said, my opinion on the matter is contradicted by the powers that be - in this case, the developers themselves.  Therefore, since it has their blessing, I do lamely attempt to get my tired, old, arthritic fingers to do what they may in terms of squeezing out a few extra DPS on longswords, great swords, and mauls.

 

Secondly, animation cancelling has a finite limit of improvement with respect to damage output.  There are only a certain number of hits that can be performed within the space of the time where the animation begins, is interrupted, renewed, and cycled.  Thus, I feel it is much less a problem than with re-entering with full lives and potions, because you can literally toss all potions, drop out/back in, renew cycle infinitely - so long as one of your private group is still standing.  This *completely* negates the limits of character downs/potions that the developers put into the game, as opposed to 'only' doubling you DPS on certain weapons.

[JAMiAM]

 

 

Bioware hasn't said that an old player shouldn't get the same advantages as a new player when joining/rejoining.  That's more the communities opinion, not Bioware's.  The game doesn't differentiate between a new player and an old player, that is a distinction the community is making based upon the communities ethical position.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how I got swept up into this, seeing as I've never done it and likely never will.  I do agree it's not a big deal, but I think I am probably done defending a position I don't really care about.  It's been an interesting debate though, as a time waster sitting at my desk.

 

Well...on that note, thank you for participating in a civil manner, as the Devil's Advocate, if nothing else.  Argument, like so many things in life, is not inherently good, or bad.  It is the how we go about it, that defines its essential character.

[JAMiAM]

No, Bioware needs to keep their mouth shut until they implement a fix. Whether it is intended to be abused doesn't matter if abusing it has no repercussions. 

LoL...sometimes, I think the same way.  Depends on which side of the bed I get up on, as to whether my day will be filled with optimism, or pessimism, on the nature of the human spirit when it is faced with moral challenges.

[GenSheng]

Wow...someone taking the accusation of cheating a little personally?  I've played with many of the players on the PC leader board over the last 10+ months, and I've personally witnessed at least half of them who have, at some time or another, taken advantage of this exploit, the x2 gold exploit, the x2 XP exploit, and the old drop out on Zone 5 and reenter with a level one character when there is a single enemy left so that you can insta-level the level one toon.  I'm not saying that these people are necessarily bad people, but many of them have cheated, and exploited, their way into the positions they occupy on the leader board, and into their highly promoted, highly geared conditions.  To deny this is foolish, and to rationalize it...childish.

 

You miss cancelled attack, but someone said that is okay by dev.

then how do you know if devs try all the above in their game or even okay with them?

I noticed they fixed x2 exploit though, not the rest.

 

they called them exploits. I dont recall if they've ever used "cheat".

by their actions:

attack cancel is ok.

x2 is no go.

 

the rest is up to individual until further clarification (or if ppl shed enough tears to bother them).

[TheThirdRace]

The problem is more about some players think everything is an exploit instead of letting Bioware set their rules.

Since the begining of DAMP, we've seen a couple trends, so let's examine them a bit...

 

Rejoining as a level 1 on wave 5
Let's get something straight, Bioware made rejoining a game without losing your XP a feature. It was to avoid the fiasco from ME3MP where players lots "Billions" in XP and Gold.

Now, the "rejoining with a level 1 at wave 5" resided in a gray area. I don't think Bioware intended the original feature to do that, but when they were made aware of it, they let it slide. Eventually, the pressure from some community members made Bioware change its mind. More conditions to keep your XP while rejoining were added and the point has been close.

At no point in time this practice was considered a cheat by Bioware. It was in a grey area, then it was blocked so it doesn't happen. Bioware didn't threatened anyone with bans, they simply corrected an unintended use of their feature.

 

Animation cancelling
This is a feature. Bioware coded it with that specific purpose. It was like that in ME3MP, it's the same with DAMP. End of discussion.

 

Spawn camping
This one is very interesting...

The thing is, it was perfectly possible to spawn camp at launch and nobody, even Bioware, cared about it. Let's be real, what "benefit" could you ever gain from that? Absolutely nothing. You need to kill things for XP and collect gold to get any progress. So spawn camping wasn't even remotely in your interest, but you were free to gimp yourself if it made you happy.

Then the Hakkon weapons arrived. Suddenly, there were items directly tied to a boss (dragon) so speedrunning thru the whole map COULD allow you to get the item you wanted faster. Because they tied the items to the Dragons, it wasn't pure RNG anymore, people could tip the odds their way by completing the games faster.

Again, after some pressure from some members of the community that saw this as an unfair advantage, Bioware decided to finally take position on the matter and made the practice "not ok". But that's not how it ended. At first, they reduced the spawn points blocking radius to a very low value. The results were pretty bad, enemies were spawning on your head and the whole game became very silly. Then, they saw their tech wasn't up to snuff so they decided to simply halve the original values which made spawn camping much harder to accomplish. In the process, they also changed their position to a somewhat middle ground between "ok" and "not ok". Thus, their positioned went from "ok" to "not ok" to "ok, but you're gonna have to work a lot for it". Bioware never threatened anyone with bans, they simply adjusted their rules with the new conditions they were facing. They even confirmed spawn camping wasn't a problem, they only acted because they tied the Hakkon weapons to the dragons and were at a lost on how to fix this without taking this workaround.

The irony here is that people that complained the most about the "unfair" advantage were the ones that got nerfed the most. By reducing the spawn point blocking radius, Bioware effectively made spawn camping impossible for low promotion players. All the while, leaderboard players, the very ones that were using spawn camping the most to begin with, are still using it just as easily and with Bioware's blessing on top of that! And nobody complains! LOL!!!

Personally, I don't think this was a cheat, an exploit or an unfair advantage. If you're strong enough to spawn camp, you already play the game enough to get the weapons anyway. Getting them faster is just a plus. If you don't play the game much and get the weapons anyway because you're being carried, then good for you. I hope you're gonna be strong enough to play with me whenever I need a PUG in my lobby. It's a win-win situation, there's no unfair advantage, it's just about putting the time and your skills to contribution.

 

Double XP bug (double gold)
This one was definitely a bug introduced by a patch recently released. Bioware made it very clear it wasn't intended to give players twice the XP.

Their official stance was "don't do it on purpose, but if you happen to get into such a lobby, enjoy the free XP while it lasts". At no point in time did they threatened anyone with a ban BEFORE they took position on the matter. AFTER they took position, they said there MIGHT be consequences for those abusing the exploit. To this day, we still haven't seen any repercussion for the guilty players.

Personally, I think there's nothing Bioware can do. Their tech cannot find out who did it on purpose and who never realized they did it in the first place. They do have metrics, but I doubt they're gonna be precise enough to do anything substantial about it. At most, my guess is that we might see a small ban wave for the worst offenders, but no one that benefited from that bug "normally" will ever be reprimanded. In any case, except for the leaderboard drama, it's a win-win situation for players. PUGs got stronger with promotions and the overall playerbase benefited from that. Players that complain they worked harder for that XP and it's an unfair situation are simply grasping at straws. Yes, they did work harder and there's no denying that, but then again so would someone that exclusively played Routine over someone playing Perilous. The point is moot, your "efforts" aren't exclusively quantified by how much you played on that specific period where the exploit was possible.

As for the 2x gold bug, it was blown out of proportion as this is a leaderboard drama exclusively. Gold was only counting twice for the challenges, players never benefited from more gold in their inventory.

Finally, the XP "cap" they introduced to solve the situation is a good temporary solution, but it should have been removed when the real fix for the double XP bug was put in place. It's perfectly possible to go over the cap on some maps with certain team composition. Bioware refuses to acknowledge the problem and we are being wrongly punished for that.

My personal take on the double XP bug is that it was blown out of proportion because Bioware made the challenge system the way it is. Because the challenges aren't repeatable, the only way to increase your score at a certain point is to promote. So your leaderboard rank is directly tied to how much promotes you can do instead of being tied to how much challenge you can complete. Ironically, nobody complains about that. People instead complain about the playerbase becoming stronger and not dying all the time...

 

Rejoining a game on Heartbreaker after being in the fade
Since the launch of DAMP, Bioware has been very open minded about players rejoining a game after they were in the fade. Hell, Bioware openly accepted this on ME3MP too. While Heartbreaker was being tested in Beta, devs were suggesting to testers to rejoin between zones, they considered it "fair play" and "nothing wrong with it", a feature if you will.

The truth is, NOBODY had a problem with that until there was a challenge that gave an inordinate amount of points for the leaderboard. Now people are panicking about people completing that challenge...

Bioware haven't made their position known on the subject, but I think it's pretty easy to guess where they stand. If you had to make a choice between removing a vital "feature" with all the work it requires to do so OR hope people just wake up and complete the damn challenge already to get back to their original "spot" on the leaderboard, my guess is the choice is pretty darn easy...

 

TL;DR
Most of the drama is about Bioware's inability to build adequate Challenge and RNG systems. Those 2 systems are responsible for like 99% of all the drama around DAMP. Yet, some members of the community are hell bent on taking it out on players...

The simple solution would simply be to remove the global leaderboard entirely. It ends most likely 95% of the drama while keeping all your hard earned progress. You could still compare yourself with your friends, but all the Epeens would mostly fall flat

The game is actually in a much better place now than even 4 months ago, can we just enjoy it while it lasts?

[Micabo]

I want an explanation why no one cares about this way to cheat lol.

It is not cheating because nothing is being gained by doing this. You do not get more xp per minute (quite the opposite because the game takes longer to complete than simply playing a difficulty better matched for you). You do not get more gold because of the same exact reason. You do not get more items. There really is not an advantage to rejoining over and over. If you feel you have to do this to complete, then you are only cheating yourself out of more gold and xp per minute. If Bioware eliminated the rejoin feature, then when you crash, you would lose everything. F that. Please stop with the stupid complaint.

[Micabo]

Congrats on another troll thread.

 

Exactly.

[Jay P]

Good question, but I feel your conclusion is off.

 

First of all, BioWare, at least since ME2, has actively built into its games reload/animation cancelling.  Do I like it?  No, I think it allows all kinds of cheesiness, in the guise of 'mad skillz'.  That said, my opinion on the matter is contradicted by the powers that be - in this case, the developers themselves.  Therefore, since it has their blessing, I do lamely attempt to get my tired, old, arthritic fingers to do what they may in terms of squeezing out a few extra DPS on longswords, great swords, and mauls.

 

I would argue that just because they added it as a feature, does not mean they intended to allow you to boost your auto-attack damage by as much as 65% on some characters.

 

One could argue that added it to allow for more twitch reactions to other abilities, and did not intend for you to use it to increase auto-attack damage; in the same way they allowed reentry with new pots and lives for other people and did not intend for the same person to take advantage of it.

 

People have decided that, in the first case, attack animation canceling being included is implicitly indicating that Bioware supports attack animation canceling for the purpose of boosting auto-attack damage; while in the second case, you are determining that they never intended to allow for reentry.  This is a judgment call by the community and an inference as to what they believe the developers intended, and not dictated by the pure mechanics of the game.

 

And the argument: "if they intended for reentry, they would have just given you unlimited potions and lives" equally applies to attack animation canceling.  If they intended for you to be able to do that much auto-attack damage, they would have just given it to you.

 

Secondly, animation cancelling has a finite limit of improvement with respect to damage output.  There are only a certain number of hits that can be performed within the space of the time where the animation begins, is interrupted, renewed, and cycled.  Thus, I feel it is much less a problem than with re-entering with full lives and potions, because you can literally toss all potions, drop out/back in, renew cycle infinitely - so long as one of your private group is still standing.  This *completely* negates the limits of character downs/potions that the developers put into the game, as opposed to 'only' doubling you DPS on certain weapons.

 

 

There are potential negatives to reentry.  Your team could be placed in a compromised position.  You could get overwhelmed by the enemy while someone is out of the game.  (Yes, I understand that this doesn't apply if they do it once the waves are clear before the next room).

 

But there is no even potential downside to attack animation canceling.  It's all just benefit.  And doing more damage in DAIMP is a large benefit.  It allows you to preserve your own health, often allows you to heal yourself, and allows you to kill faster to not be overwhelmed.

 

In either case, I think it's something that maybe the developers didn't intend, but not something that should be considered cheating.  

 

And in both cases, I'm to lazy to even consider doing either.  

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I assume that it's accepted because most people don't care what happens in someone else's game when it doesn't affect them, and if you're participating in the game and it happens, you're more likely to succeed, so it would be seen as a lucky break. Of course, the people doing it on purpose in private lobbies would also find it acceptable.

 

So the question seems to be more along the lines of, "Why doesn't everyone care about the same things/get upset about the same things as me?"

 

And the answer to that question would probably be, "Because they have more important things to stress about."

[sonofbarak]

 

 

I would argue that just because they added it as a feature, does not mean they intended to allow you to boost your auto-attack damage by as much as 65% on some characters.

 

One could argue that added it to allow for more twitch reactions to other abilities, and did not intend for you to use it to increase auto-attack damage; in the same way they allowed reentry with new pots and lives for other people and did not intend for the same person to take advantage of it.

 

People have decided that, in the first case, attack animation canceling being included is implicitly indicating that Bioware supports attack animation canceling for the purpose of boosting auto-attack damage; while in the second case, you are determining that they never intended to allow for reentry.  This is a judgment call by the community and an inference as to what they believe the developers intended, and not dictated by the pure mechanics of the game.

 

And the argument: "if they intended for reentry, they would have just given you unlimited potions and lives" equally applies to attack animation canceling.  If they intended for you to be able to do that much auto-attack damage, they would have just given it to you.

 

 

There are potential negatives to reentry.  Your team could be placed in a compromised position.  You could get overwhelmed by the enemy while someone is out of the game.  (Yes, I understand that this doesn't apply if they do it once the waves are clear before the next room).

 

But there is no even potential downside to attack animation canceling.  It's all just benefit.  And doing more damage in DAIMP is a large benefit.  It allows you to preserve your own health, often allows you to heal yourself, and allows you to kill faster to not be overwhelmed.

 

In either case, I think it's something that maybe the developers didn't intend, but not something that should be considered cheating.  

 

And in both cases, I'm to lazy to even consider doing either.  

 

I do not cancel attack animation no need.

I thought you were done playing Devil's Advocate lol

Third Race taking up the slot with long winded essay

 

[Jay P]

I do not cancel attack animation no need. 

I thought you were done playing Devil's Advocate lol 

Third Race taking up the slot with long winded essay 

 

I'm sitting at my desk, bored.  Trying to ignore the mountain of work I have looming at the beginning of November. 

I like most of the community here, including JAMiAM, so it's fun to have a little back and forth.

I wish I wasn't so long winded most of the time.  

I wish even more I wasn't stuck at work.  

[JAMiAM]

But there is no even potential downside to attack animation canceling.  It's all just benefit.  And doing more damage in DAIMP is a large benefit.  It allows you to preserve your own health, often allows you to heal yourself, and allows you to kill faster to not be overwhelmed.

Shouldn't you be doing something boring and productive.  I'll just address this bit, so you can get back to work.

 

If you've ever seen me attempt to attack animation cancel, you'd know there was a downside.  When done poorly (like my clumsy fingers so often do) it skips the attacks that you cancelled, instead of skipping the follow through portion of the animation. 

 

Now, back to work.  Your supervisor is just around the corner...

[Jay P]

Shouldn't you be doing something boring and productive.  I'll just address this bit, so you can get back to work.

 

If you've ever seen me attempt to attack animation cancel, you'd know there was a downside.  When done poorly (like my clumsy fingers so often do) it skips the attacks that you cancelled, instead of skipping the follow through portion of the animation. 

 

Now, back to work.  Your supervisor is just around the corner...

 

I own my own business.

 

Closest thing I have to a supervisor is a wife.  But she can't see me at work and doesn't game at all.