Oh, and for people who like him, don't hesitate to share/like:
http://evolvana.tumb...t/129447021788/
I can understand why this wasn't an option, but as someone else once reminded me - "even [antagonists] can love", and Loghain's not as much of a villain as Alistair, Eamon and Teagan make him out to be. He's got more complex motivations than just power.
Modifié par springacres, 20 septembre 2015 - 02:31 .
I can understand why this wasn't an option, but as someone else once reminded me - "even [antagonists] can love", and Loghain's not as much of a villain as Alistair, Eamon and Teagan make him out to be. He's got more complex motivations than just power.
Yes, I can totally understand why it was not an option (it's too controversial), but that would have been very interesting (how a relationship can transform from hate to appreciation than love, with dialogues that could help understand the character better and his motivations, because he's human after all, with his flaws, his mistakes, but also his good sides). That would have been the most original Bioware romance ever 
another nice drawing by Icedwingsart (Olga Kolesnikova) (her Surana seems to appreciate Loghain as well 
)
http://icedwingsart....cture-406362218
Wow! that girl has talent ! 
Yes, I love this one too, and she got a Daily Deviation reward for it 
This artist is also very skilled, RanmaCMH, I love her style:
http://ranmacmh.deviantart.com/
^Wow, that's amazing art. So many ways to read that scenario.
I hate so much now the way i used to run away from the drawing classes :S
@springacres: the artist explained that her Warden was considering Loghain as a war hero (the Hero of River Dane), so she was very shy towards him ^^
I hate so much now the way i used to run away from the drawing classes :S
You don't need to take drawing classes ^^ it's just important to never stop drawing, even if it's just by yourself. I never took drawing classes and still, could reach my actual level (even if there is always room for improvement!)
Nice fanart by Notationn, Loghain and Anora!
http://notationn.dev...Anora-270896866
@Vanalia I know, I had to go check out her dA after seeing that. She makes me want to restart my F!Cousland playthrough. (I should be focused on FINISHING it instead... or finishing my assignment for class tomorrow.)
I still have my cityelf playthrough to finish, but I started a F!Amell to try all the DLCs I didn't have back then.
I have a Cousland playthrough finished already.
This time I would like to try something like: romancing Alistair and he dumps my poor Amell as the Landsmeet, she spares Loghain and they become the best friends ever. Haha But I don't want to make him do the ritual with Morrigan... (I did it with Alistair), so I guess I'll make my warden sacrifice herself.
I still have my cityelf playthrough to finish, but I started a F!Amell to try all the DLCs I didn't have back then.
I have a Cousland playthrough finished already.
This time I would like to try something like: romancing Alistair and he dumps my poor Amell as the Landsmeet, she spares Loghain and they become the best friends ever. Haha
YAY! You got the DLCs and they're working? Congrats!
"Alistair dumps you" scenario only happens if you make him *unhardened* king, something you can't do if you spare Loghain. If you choose Loghain, he leaves you for choosing another man (his mortal enemy) over him, in essence ending the relationship. Not quite the same thing as being dumped for being a mage, and hardly worthy of 'poor' Amell appellation since she should have known how he would feel about it, and didn't care.
Or did you plan hardening him, dueling Loghain, recruiting him and then forcing Alistair to marry Anora? In which case Alistair has a few choice words for you afterward in Eamon's estate that would equate to 'breaking up' with you. Not quite the same as being dumped by unhardened King Alistair, and not quite a 'poor' Amell situation again (since being a mage is not something she chose or has control over), but close enough for roleplay purposes.
If I still had Origins,
Time to upgrade the PC which I had built in 2010. It has a new video card to make it Inquisition playable, but needs new HD and CPU to improve gameplay.
I didn't receive my Ultimate edition yet (with all the DLCs), but I will have it in a few days hopefully!
Yes I want to put Anora and hardened Alistair on the throne, and spare Loghain.
BUT I still think that the warden never abandonned Alistair, she never told him "I choose Loghain, so I want you to leave". No, the others from the team didn't like Loghain either, but still, they stayed until the end to help the warden fight the final fight. Alistair only saw his own grudge and couldn't see the big picture (Duncan was not killed by Loghain, but because a lot of reasons, Loghain is not the only one to blame but Alistair is too blind to see it), and Alistair prefered taking that choice personnaly instead of realizing that he was clearly abandonning the warden (his lover/best friend) just before a decisive battle.
He took her choice like a treason, but she could also take his choice like a treason as well (AND he is abandonning not only a friend but also his duties as a warden, Duncan wouldn't be happy about that).
So I'm not crying too much on Alistair leaving, to my eyes it is his own choice, no one asked him to flee from his duty and from his friends. He couldn't bear breathing the same air as someone he hated, while all the others from the group could bare it, at least until the final fight. Even if Loghain becomes a warden, it doesn't mean they have to work hand in hand until the rest of their days. I understand why Alistair would be angry and not wanting to work with a man he hates, but when he put eveything in the scale (do we say that?), his hate for Loghain outweighted all the rest: the warden's love, his duties, Duncan's will, the end of the Blight, his friends, everything. I would have expected him at least to come back at the last moment during the final fight, in order to help, regretting his impulsive choice of leaving at the Landsmeet, but no, he just went to some tavern to drown himself in alcohol.
With the retcon, drunk Alistair even became warden, while Loghain was warden as well, so it was totally possible to make both of them work as wardens. Too bad that Alistair realized it years afterwards.
(like this I know it sounds like I hate Alistair, but no, I really love him, it's just his last Landsmeet tantrum that I dislike, and his immature choice if we spare Loghain).
I didn't receive my Ultimate edition yet (with all the DLCs), but I will have it in a few days hopefully!
Yes I want to put Anora and hardened Alistair on the throne, and spare Loghain.
BUT I still think that the warden never abandonned Alistair, she never told him "I choose Loghain, so I want you to leave". No, the others from the team didn't like Loghain either, but still, they stayed until the end to help the warden fight the final fight. Alistair only saw his own grudge and couldn't see the big picture (Duncan was not killed by Loghain, but because a lot of reasons, Loghain is not the only one to blame but Alistair is too blind to see it), and Alistair prefered taking that choice personnaly instead of realizing that he was clearly abandonning the warden (his lover/best friend) just before a decisive battle.
He took her choice like a treason, but she could also take his choice like a treason as well (AND he is abandonning not only a friend but also his duties as a warden, Duncan wouldn't be happy about that).
So I'm not crying too much on Alistair leaving, to my eyes it is his own choice, no one asked him to flee from his duty and from his friends. He couldn't bear breathing the same air as someone he hated, while all the others from the group could bare it, at least until the final fight. Even if Loghain becomes a warden, it doesn't mean they have to work hand in hand until the rest of their days. I understand why Alistair would be angry and not wanting to work with a man he hates, but when he put eveything in the scale (do we say that?), his hate for Loghain outweighted all the rest: the warden's love, his duties, Duncan's will, the end of the Blight, his friends, everything. I would have expected him at least to come back at the last moment during the final fight, in order to help, regretting his impulsive choice of leaving at the Landsmeet, but no, he just went to some tavern to drown himself in alcohol.
With the retcon, drunk Alistair even became warden, while Loghain was warden as well, so it was totally possible to make both of them work as wardens. Too bad that Alistair realized it years afterwards.
(like this I know it sounds like I hate Alistair, but no, I really love him, it's just his last Landsmeet tantrum that I dislike, and his immature choice if we spare Loghain).
Funny how perspective varies from person to person isn't it?
Of course, Alistair should see the larger picture and suck it up, but he can't. It's what makes his writing so good, so human. He can't see past his hatred and survivor's guilt to the broader tapestry. He's also very young (I think he's like 22, 23 or so). With time I suppose he may come to accept it (and kind of does if Loghain dies to the Archdemon, I think).
Loghain made mistakes, and probably deserves a chance to prove himself again. Which is what makes him so interesting, human and relatable. If it weren't for the slavery thing, I could see some of my wardens sparing him, but for me that's the straw that broke the back, not Alistair's hissy fit.
After reading two particular codices in Inquisition I will never spare him for selling the elves to Tevinter. Never, ever.
*Edit with Inquisition/DA2 spoiler*
About the elves in the alienage, as Loghain predicted, the whole place was destroyed during the final fight with the archdemon, right? the people living there would be the first ones to die during an invasion of darkspawn and he knew it.
It doesn't excuse what he did, of course, but you mean he should just have let fate decide and let them die, killed by darkspawn? I can understand (even if I don't approve) why he made that decision even if it sounds evil. The thing is to decide what is better: being slaughtered by darkspawn invading the alienage, or being alive but without freedom?
Some of them find good masters, some of them are sacrificed by blood mages, some of them are exploited...
Maybe it's better to be killed by an ogre? I don't know.
I'm sure the poor elves there, if they were in front of the horde and having the choice, would prefer to live and try their luck with the random Tevinter masters. Some would regret it, of course.
But slavery seems evil when the danger is not "right in front" of their gates. However Loghain seemed to see further than that and was very pessimistic about the situation. In the end he was right about one thing: the darkspawn did really storm into the alienage and killed anyone they could find. The elves who were sold would have perished.
Should we be happy that they are alive because/thanks to Loghain's bargain? should we prefer imagining them dead killed by hurlocks? hmm. I don't know.
*Edit with Inquisition/DA2 spoiler*
Spoiler
Well in DA2 the retcon made Teagan convince Allistair to come back to Ferelden, I have to ask again the Cullenites who told me that he went back to the Grey wardens (well, he was still one I guess, even if he was drunk), but anyway as it is just a retcon, you won't see Alistair as a Warden in DA:I unless you made the clear choice to let him stay as a warden at the end of DA:O. There's something in the codex of Inquisition about that retcon, I have to find it again.
That's just it, the Alienage isn't destroyed compared to other areas of the city. It's under siege, certainly, but not destroyed. The main market is decimated with no sign of human life left, but if you go to the Alienage to kill the second General, you find many elves still alive. You can even convince them to help stave off the assault.
It's more than just the slavery, it's how the Tevinter magisters see their slaves. They don't see people, they see things, replaceable things, they can use and toy with. Even those who aren't bled to fuel magic. The codices I refer to,
Given a choice, I doubt any of the elves would have preferred slavery to being able to fight for their right to live, just as any other Ferelden citizen would have. And why I find Loghain's protestations about Orlesians so hypocritical since he just sold a bunch of people to that life.
Please don't feel the need to defend him. I'm not trying to start a flame war or put you on the ropes. There are some aspects of Loghain that are not likeable, but even then he is human. He's relatable and easy to understand. He's far from perfect, and not very cuddly, but he's not written to be. He's meant to be an antagonist. A well written and complex antagonist. He's not black and white, but shades of grey. As I said, I could see some of my wardens might actually recruit him, but that slaves thing kind of does him in for me.
Loghain made mistakes, and probably deserves a chance to prove himself again. Which is what makes him so interesting, human and relatable. If it weren't for the slavery thing, I could see some of my wardens sparing him, but for me that's the straw that broke the back, not Alistair's hissy fit.
Even with the slavery thing, I can see my non-elvhen Wardens sparing him. M!Cousland would spare him for political gain (and maybe also so as not to have to kill him in front of Anora, if I go with the Prince Consort ending for that playthrough) and my dwarves would probably do it out of sheer cold-blooded practicality. My elvhen Wardens... I think my canon Warden summed it up best. "I can forgive your withdrawing your troops at Ostagar. I can forgive you for having Eamon poisoned. But you make an agreement with Tevinter blood mage slavers to sell MY people into slavery - AFTER arguing with Cailan about his wanting to wait for Orlesian Wardens, on the grounds that Orlais had enslaved Fereldans for a century - and then have the gall to tell me that the Alienage was past saving? Sorry, you're EXTRA dead."
All that was before the duel, and he still ended up almost sparing Loghain when he saw glimpses of the man Loghain had once been - perhaps still was, deep down inside. There's still a part of my Warden that regrets not having spared the man. Loghain is just that well-written as a character. As sylvanaerie said, he's human, deeply flawed but with redeeming qualities hidden just beneath the surface.
Even with the slavery thing, I can see my non-elvhen Wardens sparing him. M!Cousland would spare him for political gain (and maybe also so as not to have to kill him in front of Anora, if I go with the Prince Consort ending for that playthrough) and my dwarves would probably do it out of sheer cold-blooded practicality. My elvhen Wardens... I think my canon Warden summed it up best. "I can forgive your withdrawing your troops at Ostagar. I can forgive you for having Eamon poisoned. But you make an agreement with Tevinter blood mage slavers to sell MY people into slavery - AFTER arguing with Cailan about his wanting to wait for Orlesian Wardens, on the grounds that Orlais had enslaved Fereldans for a century - and then have the gall to tell me that the Alienage was past saving? Sorry, you're EXTRA dead."
All that was before the duel, and he still ended up almost sparing Loghain when he saw glimpses of the man Loghain had once been - perhaps still was, deep down inside. There's still a part of my Warden that regrets not having spared the man. Loghain is just that well-written as a character. As sylvanaerie said, he's human, deeply flawed but with redeeming qualities hidden just beneath the surface.
I can envision several motives for his reasoning.
1) It could be he actually believes the alienage will be lost. Humans wouldn't go out of their way to protect the elves, elves aren't allowed to carry weapons (though they had bows during the siege, something I don't think Loghain was expecting). In this case, he's just in error. He's human, he makes mistakes. It's not like he could foresee that the huge ass gate would put a dent in the darkspawn's efforts for as long as it did. Indeed, the warden arrives just in time to turn the tide from the look of things. But when the warden gets there, the darkspawn have failed to get into the alienage, meaning Loghain didn't account for the factor of the HoF in his figuring.
Certainly, the death toll isn't the high one he was anticipating, meaning those elves sold are just sold. Their friends and family in the alienage survive (unless the player completely ignores the 2 generals and goes straight to Ft Drakon). The market is decimated, without any sign of human life by the time the warden gets there. Yet, he didn't sell the humans there to Tevinter, only the elves in the alienage. Because it was against Ferelden law, and he knew he would have to answer to the bannorn once everything came out, but the nobles wouldn't miss a few elves.
2) It could be deep down he knows he's wrong, that this is just what he tells himself so he can sleep at night. He's not a happy camper about anything that's gone down thus far. He's not doing all this for the lulz. He's trying desperately to hold together something that's coming apart in the middle, with the entire nation (and finally his daughter) against him.
Also, he is a man who's committed once he sets his feet on a path. He can't see any alternatives until they have been knocked into his noggin (one of the reasons you have to fight him). Selling the elves was the only way he saw that he could raise the capitol he needed for the mercenary army.
It could even be a little of both scenarios. Both fit his characterization enough I could conceive either or even a combination of both. It's open enough to interpretation.
I dont try to defend him about everything, I'm just trying to understand. 
I see a lot of people saying "he sold the elves for his own profit", and I think it's just wrong. He would never sell slaves to get some gold coins for himself. I really think he thought the alienage would be destroyed and that these elves were lost anyway, and the money would help to fight the enemy by paying mercenaries.
What seems wrong is that this is his own speculation, and also it is a very cold calculating way to solve the problem. But I can understand why he did it, and he did not do it for his personal profit.
I also think that a whole country enslaved (Ferelden by the Orlesian) is different than a few elves sold just to rise up money at a precise time to pay mercenaries. It's not like he was going to sell all the elves of Ferelden or would conquer a country and sell everyone to slavery.
I think he's the kind of man who cannot resolve himself to do nothing against an enemy, and would even do very questionable things to be able to have a chance to win. I guess he knew that his hands and reputation were already soiled and he thought that he was the one who would dirty his hands on this until the end. He wouldn't want Anora to be accused of anything he's done, that's also why he locked her away.
But yes, he is interesting because he's so controversial. It's just a pity that many people only see things in black and white and refuse to see further, and think he's just 100% evil, wanted Cailan dead (while he spends his time in Ostagar saying to Cailan that it's too dangerous, that he shouldn't go on the front line, etc), wanted the throne for himself and wanted money. It seems such a wrong way to read that character.
And about fanarts, a nice DA:I Loghain by Audelade!
http://audelade.devi...ghain-521576918
Since ya'll are posting fanfics about Loghain, I thought I'd post this link to Cadsuane/Lady Damodred's fic on FF.Net. It's an AU and told from the perspective of a young Alistair who gets acknowledged by Maric, and grows up in the palace in Denerim. It features a Loghain very different (but entirely believable and within his characterization) from the one in the game. She hasn't finished it, and hasn't posted any new updates in months (since I got sick, I haven't been able to beta for her as that requires focus), but I really enjoy her fics and this one gave me a new appreciation for how good things could have been for Alistair, Maric and Loghain.
I think you'd enjoy this Loghain too, Vanalia.
https://www.fanficti...2590/1/Mistakes
Thanks for the link, I'll check that! ^^
And another fanart by Synndrake, young Loghain from the Stolen throne:
http://synndrake.dev...l-WIP-300252170
I dont try to defend him about everything, I'm just trying to understand.
The alienage is a separate walled enclosure inside the walls of Denerim on the far side of the nation from the invading darkspawn. It was the most easily defended part of the whole city. Sure, it's accurate that he was selling those slaves to buy weapons and mercenaries rather than to replace the draperies in the palace, but writing off the alienage basically means writing off the whole country.
The alienage is a separate walled enclosure inside the walls of Denerim on the far side of the nation from the invading darkspawn. It was the most easily defended part of the whole city. Sure, it's accurate that he was selling those slaves to buy weapons and mercenaries rather than to replace the draperies in the palace, but writing off the alienage basically means writing off the whole country.
Oh, for debates, it would be in another thread. I try to keep this one clean of any debate heard over and over/negative stuff.
Haha, I laughed when I saw that, it's exactly how the Epilogue feels in the Stolen Throne: it's Sister Ailes who tells all the story to young Cailan. Did he really want to hear all that?
*spoilers Stolen Throne* (by Ddriana)
http://ddriana.devia...s-TMI-421756175
LOL Poor Cailan. He just wanted to hear a cool war story.
Ye,s the Epilogue is really:
"...and this is how it happened" said Sister Ailis to young Cailan.
"But my parents never loved each other?" asked Cailan, sad.
"It's complicated, they loved each other in a way" answered Sister Ailis.
Oh, come on, which child would like to hear that? "yeah your parents never loved each other, they felt foreced to do it, you father prefers elves anyway, he even wanted to make queen spy-traitor-murderer just because he felt like a man with her. They even had sex in a tent the first day they met, because your father was such a fool and the first sexy girl could manipulate him so easily. Oh, and your mother was right outside of the tent and heard all the moans.
And you know, that cold and distant dark-haired best friend of your father? well, in fact you mother loves him, and he loves her, and they even had sex together a few meters away from the place where your father and the elf were banging. But because of duty they couldn't be together and your parents married each other."
("oh and before the Fiona retcon, your father also cheated with your mother with a servant an had a bastard called Alistair, but it was a bit too much against Maric so, bam, a retcon to give him back some dignity and say that in fact he had his bastard after the death of his wife and not before")
Such a nice story to tell to a child 
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