109 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Ye,s the Epilogue is really:

"...and this is how it happened" said Sister Ailis to young Cailan.

"But my parents never loved each other?" asked Cailan, sad.

"It's complicated, they loved each other in a way" answered Sister Ailis.

 

 

Oh, come on, which child would like to hear that? "yeah your parents never loved each other, they felt foreced to do it, you father prefers elves anyway, he even wanted to make queen spy-traitor-murderer just because he felt like a man with her. They even had sex in a tent the first day they met, because your father was such a fool and the first sexy girl could manipulate him so easily. Oh, and your mother was right outside of the tent and heard all the moans.

And you know, that cold and distant dark-haired best friend of your father? well, in fact you mother loves him, and he loves her, and they even had sex together a few meters away from the place where your father and the elf were banging. But because of duty they couldn't be together and your parents married each other."

("oh and before the Fiona retcon, your father also cheated with your mother with a servant an had a bastard called Alistair, but it was a bit too much against Maric so, bam, a retcon to give him back some dignity and say that in fact he had his bastard after the death of his wife and not before")

 

Such a nice story to tell to a child 

 

Well, remember I said some stuff slipped past the continuity gods?  Alistair was originally intended to be closer to 30 (and older than Cailan).  In which case, Maric would have been cheating with the servant woman.  But the Alistair who made it to Origins is approximately 20-23 years old, at which point Rowan was long dead.  Even being with the servant woman before the Fiona retcon didn't mean Maric was cheating on Rowan, because the finished product Alistair was too young. But original concept Alistair would have been the result of Maric's philandering, yes.

 

Regardless, I always thought he was a horrible father.  One reason I liked Cadsuane's fic was he's a much better dad in it.

[Vanalia]

I have to read again eveyrthing they say about Alistair's mother in DA:O, but there was something about "protecting the reputation of the queen" and that's why Alistair was "hidden". I don't see why it would be so important to protect Rowan's reputation if the deed was done long after her death. If it's not cheating, then it's different than betraying her while she was alive.

 

Here, Loghain clearly says that if Maric didn't aknowledge Alistair it was because "it would have ruined Rowan" (not her reputation only, herself, so it means she was alive) and make her look like a concubine in the eyes of other countries, so it sounds like it happened when she was alive:

[sylvanaerie]

I have to read again eveyrthing they say about Alistair's mother in DA:O, but there was something about "protecting the reputation of the queen" and that's why Alistair was "hidden". I don't see why it would be so important to protect Rowan's reputation if the deed was done long after her death. If it's not cheating, then it's different than betraying her while she was alive.

 

Here, Loghain clearly says that if Maric didn't aknowledge Alistair it was because "it would have ruined Rowan" (not her reputation only, herself, so it means she was alive) and make her look like a concubine in the eyes of other countries, so it sounds like it happened when she was alive:

 

That's why I said, there's dialogue that slipped past the continuity gods--such as some of the dialogues in Ostagar as well.  And some of Alistair's personal history he relates to you.  Rowan had to have been dead by the time Alistair was conceived, because he's in his early 20's and younger than Cailan, not 30 years old.  Making Fiona his mother didn't change how old he was, just who was his mother.  He didn't suddenly age to 30 because Loghain said this.  Rather it's a dialogue that doesn't make any sense because it doesn't match up with Alistair's age.  And claiming he was the child of a servant in Redcliffe would make him more acceptable to the nobility than the son of an Orlesian elf mage grey warden.  

As I said, original concepts of Alistair had him as much older, being conceived more around just after Orlais was ousted from Ferelden.  Alistair even said "Eamon's wife was Orlesian which caused all kinds of trouble with Maric because it was so soon after the war."  Implying he was around a couple years just after the war and was aware of all these happenings first hand.  Possible if he was the original age he was supposed to be, but not so reliable for a young man born a few years after the fact.  Why would Isolde have been so upset if she knew Alistair wasn't Eamon's son?  Her hostility would have made a lot more sense if Alistair was already there when they got married, but he wasn't even born yet--he couldn't have been.  He's not old enough.

 

A lot of the timeline is really messed up.  But the only part I consider retcon is Fiona being the actual mother, not Maric's philandering being whitewashed.  

[Vanalia]

Yes, yes, but as I discovered Fiona's story only very recently, it's still hard for me to see it as true, because all these dialogues and stuff in DA:O retconed.

 

They did not change/delete all the dialogues causing chronological problems, so here they are, confusing everyone 

 

Nice fanart by Dakkun39 (young Maric and young Loghain)

http://dakkun39.tumblr.com

[Kynare]

I like the shipping Loghain/Warden, in fact... because I don't really imagine him with any other character from the game (and I don't usually like fan stuff with official couples like Rowan/Loghain because we already have a book about this (and it's an old crush, characters are not stuck with the same old teenager crush all their lives, that's boring, that's also why I like the fact that we married someone else), what I want in a fanfiction/fanart is something new)

 

A F!Warden who would spare him and discover that he is in fact more than meet the eye... that's interesting.

 

 

(Late response but) I guess it always seemed awkward to me because I always pictured my characters around the same age as his daughter, lol. That drastic of an age gap just isn't my personal preference. I can see myself making an older Warden character though, maybe around 30 years old. It's actually something I haven't tried yet. I wonder what kind of character would be the type Loghain is interested in... hmmm.

[Vanalia]

(Late response but) I guess it always seemed awkward to me because I always pictured my characters around the same age as his daughter, lol. That drastic of an age gap just isn't my personal preference. I can see myself making an older Warden character though, maybe around 30 years old. It's actually something I haven't tried yet. I wonder what kind of character would be the type Loghain is interested in... hmmm.

You can create an older-looking warden if you want but yes the warden is supposed to be even a bit younger than Anora... But it's not unusual to see an older man with a younger woman especially in the middle-age period.

It seems that Loghain likes women with a strong temper, not especially a warrior like Rowan, because his wife was not a warrior, but a woman who knows what she wants.

[jros83]

Flawed hero who turns into a genuine villain, who frankly doesn't deserve redemption, but you can't help but want him to be redeemed. A bit like Darth Vader. Murdered a bunch of children, exterminated a majority of his fellow Jedi, but did it all out of a fanatical need to protect the one he loves.

 

Loghain commits treason, spurs Howe to massacre an entire family line, incites a civil war during a Blight, but did it all out of a fanatical need to (at least in his mind) protect his beloved Fereldan from another Orlesian occupation. That's why I like his character as much as I do. He's not a simple villain. And that's why even as a Cousland I can spare his life. It's not like he won't pay. He's going to be a Warden and he's going to earn his redemption, and he may die anyway. But it's an acknowledgment that he USED TO BE a hero.

[SherryGold]

I tend to spare Loghain, partly because I find his company a lot more enjoyable than that of Alistair, whose disapproval rating tends to be ridiculously high and his complaint always pisses me off when I have to use Jowan's blood magic or kill Connor after siding with the Templars, whom I find much better allies than mages in the final battle even though I dislike their religious fanaticism. The conversation with Loghain is actually quite interesting (while I really resent having to speak to Alistair for some minor approval hit so that I can harden him and marry him off to Anora) and his banter with Dog is very touching. And yes, I love hearing his banter with Zevran.

[Fylimar]

I can not bring myself to spare Loghain often. I did it once or twice for the RTO DLC and the different ending, but he did too much wrongs to spare him - especially since I often play elves and after what happened in the alienage, it's just hard to spare him. And of course, if my Cousland would ever reach teh Landsmeet, she wouldn't spare him either, after all, he is responsible for Howe slaugthering the family.

But he is a very well written villain - I can understand, why people are facsintated by him - I find him disgusting, but in a good way (like Meredith in DA2, whom I found a very good antagonist until the very last scene) - he is a well written character.

[jros83]

Loghain grew up during a very cruel occupation, something that the Warden can not understand (thanks to people like Loghain). Loghain has only known two things; war and oppression. He didn't have the luxury of growing up a free citizen in his homeland. He's scarred and traumatized and in that context you can understand why he was convinced Cailen's plans for Orlais would lead to another occupation. He wasn't right, but just because someone isn't right doesn't mean they are evil. Loghain is to be pitied, especially when you consider how much he did for Fereldan. He deserves being spared. Turn down Morrigan's ritual and have him kill the Archdemon if you really feel he should die, but sparing him to be a Grey Warden (a heavy burden and, barring dying in battle, a guaranteed 30 year death sentence) is the punishment a former hero like him deserves I think. And I can't drive the point home enough that the man was indeed a hero. His enemies even freely admit that.

 

The real sour ahole who deserves the death he receives is Howe.

[Qun00]

Over the course of this video, Loghain defends his actions one by one. And then somewhere in the middle he says "I failed. I had lives in my hands and I failed".

So I'd like to ask... what exactly is Loghain's definition of failure? In his mind, his choices were the best that could possibly be done for the good of Ferelden, while all the death and suffering was inevitable.

[Illegitimus]

 

Over the course of this video, Loghain defends his actions one by one. And then somewhere in the middle he says "I failed. I had lives in my hands and I failed".

So I'd like to ask... what exactly is Loghain's definition of failure? In his mind, his choices were the best that could possibly be done for the good of Ferelden, while all the death and suffering was inevitable.

 

Well that's not true.  He's reluctant to say it out loud, but he knows that not all of his choices were the best.  

 

 

• Nightmare: Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir, the brilliant commander. Pity the one time you tried to rule, you failed so miserably. You had to be beaten, humiliated, lest you destroy your own country. You even doomed the Wardens by bringing the Inquisitor down on them. You destroy everything you touch.
• Loghain: Is that all you've got? It's nothing I've not said to myself.

[sylvanaerie]

 

Well that's not true.  He's reluctant to say it out loud, but he knows that not all of his choices were the best.  

 

 

• Nightmare: Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir, the brilliant commander. Pity the one time you tried to rule, you failed so miserably. You had to be beaten, humiliated, lest you destroy your own country. You even doomed the Wardens by bringing the Inquisitor down on them. You destroy everything you touch.
• Loghain: Is that all you've got? It's nothing I've not said to myself.

 

 

This is my favorite dialogue with him.  Only possible if he survives Origins.  I love it when characters experience growth/evolution, and his is especially good.  

 

But it's not something you see in Origins, this is from Inquisition, a decade after the Blight.  You know what they say though, better late than never.

[Qun00]

For all that it's worth, I think that the massacre at Ostagar was mostly Caillan's fault.

Loghain wanted the king to stay away from the front lines. Duncan wanted him to wait for reinforcements before going to battle.

He listened to neither.

[ModernAcademic]

I've been playing Origins again and enjoyed my moments with Loghain in the camp. I love his dialogs!

 

Btw, his sense of humor is very similar to Alistair's. They're both prone to irony and sarcasm. Also, to admit their own flaws. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

(Alistair's fangirls will want to tear me apart after that...)

[GoldenGail3]

I've been playing Origins again and enjoyed my moments with Loghain in the camp. I love his dialogs!

 

Btw, his sense of humor is very similar to Alistair's. They're both prone to irony and sarcasm. Also, to admit their own flaws. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

(Alistair's fangirls will want to tear me apart after that...)

 

Nah, i'm an Alistair fan girl and i'm fine with dat. 

[Vanalia]

I Can't understand why so many people say that Loghain "is the one who killed Cailan" (no, the Ogre did) or "the one who killed Duncan" (the darkspawn did), or "responsible of what Howe did to the Cousland" (no proof anywhere that Loghain asked him to do that, his fault would be maybe of NOT punishing Howe after this, but nothing says ANYWHERE that Loghain ordered Howe to attack the Cousland)

 

There is no proof that Loghain would have been able to save the life of Duncan and Cailan if he didn't leave at Ostagar. As a general, he thought the battle was lost, and I think he was sincere about that. Rushing to save Cailan would just have killed all his men, the entire army.

 

But we already discussed that over and over.

 

Oh, and when you talk to him, even in Origins, he says that he made "tactical mistakes" and everything, so yes, I think he already agrees that he did wrong and took bad decisions (splitting the forces, etc), he doesn't deny all his mistakes, not at all. He even insists on sacrificing because "he has a lot to atone for". I had to insist a lot when I talked to him to make him change his mind and accept the ritual.

 

I just finished the game with my Amell sparing Loghain, it was fun, Loghain and Amell are best buddies now 

 

Loghain literally jumped on the Archdemon, slained it, jumped on his head, waw o__o nice finishing blow! (well, my Amell did the final strike, but still). We both survived because I made him do the dark ritual. Because I wanted him alive, and also wanted to keep my warden for Awakening.

 

The funny bug was when Anora said "I will make a commemorative statue for all the people and soldiers who have fallen during that battle, LIKE ALISTAIR" 

Me: o____o Whaaat? 

It's true that she said that Alistair wanted to fight or something, I thought he went into battle and died!

 

Then at the final scene he shows up and I can speak to him... *relief*... I think Anora was saying something identical as what she says when Alistair is a warden and sacrifices? strange.

[GoldenGail3]

I Can't understand why so many people say that Loghain "is the one who killed Cailan" (no, the Ogre did) or "the one who killed Duncan" (the darkspawn did), or "responsible of what Howe did to the Cousland" (no proof anywhere that Loghain asked him to do that, his fault would be maybe of NOT punishing Howe after this, but nothing says ANYWHERE that Loghain ordered Howe to attack the Cousland)

 

There is no proof that Loghain would have been able to save the life of Duncan and Cailan if he didn't leave at Ostagar. As a general, he thought the battle was lost, and I think he was sincere about that. Rushing to save Cailan would just have killed all his men, the entire army.

 

But we already discussed that over and over.

 

Oh, and when you talk to him, even in Origins, he says that he made "tactical mistakes" and everything, so yes, I think he already agrees that he did wrong and took bad decisions (splitting the forces, etc), he doesn't deny all his mistakes, not at all. He even insists on sacrificing because "he has a lot to atone for". I had to insist a lot when I talked to him to make him change his mind and accept the ritual.

 

I just finished the game with my Amell sparing Loghain, it was fun, Loghain and Amell are best buddies now 

 

Loghain literally jumped on the Archdemon, slained it, jumped on his head, waw o__o nice finishing blow! (well, my Amell did the final strike, but still). We both survived because I made him do the dark ritual. Because I wanted him alive, and also wanted to keep my warden for Awakening.

 

The funny bug was when Anora said "I will make a commemorative statue for all the people and soldiers who have fallen during that battle, LIKE ALISTAIR" 

Me: o____o Whaaat? 

It's true that she said that Alistair wanted to fight or something, I thought he went into battle and died!

 

Then at the final scene he shows up and I can speak to him... *relief*... I think Anora was saying something identical as what she says when Alistair is a warden and sacrifices? strange.

Becuase maybe he worked with Howe, the man that killed them.

[Vanalia]

Becuase maybe he worked with Howe, the man that killed them.

 

So that's plain stupid to accuse someone for the bad things someone else did, especially if Loghain took Howe as an ally AFTER the deeds.

 

Loghain needed Howe for politics, he didn't order or approve the Cousland attack and nothing says he was aware of it at that time. He is just responsible of not punishing Howe, but he needed him to reach a "greater goal" (protect Ferelden) so he couldn't afford loosing a powerful ally just for some lord accused of working with Orlais anyway.

[GoldenGail3]

So that's plain stupid to accuse someone for the bad things someone else did, especially if Loghain took Howe as an ally AFTER the deeds.

 

Loghain needed Howe for politics, he didn't order or approve the Cousland attack and nothing says he was aware of it at that time. He is just responsible of not punishing Howe, but he needed him to reach a "greater goal" (protect Ferelden) so he couldn't afford loosing a powerful ally just for some lord accused of working with Orlais anyway.

 

Even though he allied himself with Howe?   I'm sorry, i don't want to argue with you. I'm kind of mad right now.

[ModernAcademic]

It's odd how Rendon Howe is nothing more than a jerk, but Nathaniel is kinda cool.

 

I wonder who he takes after. Probably his grandfather. Only decent fellow in the family, I figure. His mother used to criticise him just like his dad when he was a kid (Awakening DLC).

[ModernAcademic]

Btw, is the Nathaniel is Loghain's son theory still going on? 

 

I still have the slight suspicion that Anora is Maric's bastard daughter, adopted by Loghain at some point. I mean, look at that blonde hair. And the perfect nose, etc. Did she inherit only Celia's good genes or what? Are Loghain's genes all recessive? Including the ones responsible for the black hair and the large, hooked nose?

 

What's reallly going on there? Theories, anyone?

[GoldenGail3]

It's odd how Rendon Howe is nothing more than a jerk, but Nathaniel is kinda cool.

 

I wonder who he takes after. Probably his grandfather. Only decent fellow in the family, I figure. His mother used to criticise him just like his dad when he was a kid (Awakening DLC).

I like your posts.   They're things i can honestly agree with as an Alistair lover...

 

 (Gail has come back from a pissing match with a DA2 lover. She's currently feeling   about it right now). Sorry, i just needed to say that before i went rant and raving in RL about how annoying people are online. /: 

[ModernAcademic]

I like your posts.   They're things i can honestly agree with as an Alistair lover...

 

 (Gail has come back from a pissing match with a DA2 lover. She's currently feeling   about it right now). Sorry, i just needed to say that before i went rant and raving in RL about how annoying people are online. /: 

 

As a mage once said: I do my best. 

[springacres]

It's odd how Rendon Howe is nothing more than a jerk, but Nathaniel is kinda cool.

 

I wonder who he takes after. Probably his grandfather. Only decent fellow in the family, I figure. His mother used to criticise him just like his dad when he was a kid (Awakening DLC).

Both Nathaniel and Delilah must take after their grandfather.  At least, Delilah seems like a decent person from what little we see of her, and Nathaniel definitely is a decent guy.  He's rather like the older brother my Warden never knew.

 

 

Btw, is the Nathaniel is Loghain's son theory still going on? 

 

I still have the slight suspicion that Anora is Maric's bastard daughter, adopted by Loghain at some point. I mean, look at that blonde hair. And the perfect nose, etc. Did she inherit only Celia's good genes or what? Are Loghain's genes all recessive? Including the ones responsible for the black hair and the large, hooked nose?

 

What's reallly going on there? Theories, anyone?

Hmm.  I'd never considered that Nathaniel might be Loghain's son, but there is a certain similarity there.

 

I will also point out that Loghain could be black-haired carrying blond and that that hooked nose could be the result of a poorly healed break rather than genetics.  Also, I HIGHLY doubt that the Chantry would have sanctioned Cailan marrying his half-sister, royal blood or no.  (Although, if Cailan had survived Ostagar, he would have needed a face-saving excuse to set aside his marriage to Anora.  Just being infertile probably wouldn't cut it, even for a Theirin.)