109 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

Sure she does. Right at that very moment you're mentioning. She was begging for her father not to die and thought she'd get a compromise.

She's also sad if you do recruit him and he sacrificed himself. She ends up visiting his statue every day.

She also pities Cauthrien if you killed her.

Basically, this just comes down to Alistair. Alistair fans always do this. Even Gaider remarked on it. lol

Hmmm? No, I don't care about what Anora does to Alistair. She'd earned my disgust long before I found out that he could be executed.

[straykat]

Hmmm? No, I don't care about what Anora does to Alistair. She'd earned my disgust long before I found out that he could be executed.

 

Any specifics? There isn't much content besides that. You mean when she protected herself at Howe's mansion? I think there's multiple ways of looking at that.

[Qun00]

Well, there is Anora's infamous backstabbing at the landsmeet. Not that different from when Loghain framed the Wardens. You know why, but agreeing with the methods is a different story.

And of course, she is very Celene-y in how she deals with elves. The fact that Alistair handles it peacefully makes it all the more damning.

[ThomasBlaine]

Well, there is Anora's infamous backstabbing at the landsmeet. Not that different from when Loghain framed the Wardens. You know why, but agreeing with the methods is a different story.

And of course, she is very Celene-y in how she deals with elves. The fact that Alistair handles it peacefully makes it all the more damning.

 

You mean how she doesn't betray her father or participate in what is effectively a coup if she isn't satisfied that you intend to be merciful with him? Yes, very backstabby. The only part about that that's marginally unfair is nobody making a point of it being important to actually hash things out with her before counting on her support. Which I think accounts for most players' bad feelings toward her.

 

What do you mean, Celene-y? And how does Alistair handle elves peacefully? Left to his own devices, he would canonically have slaughtered the Dalish tribe.

[Qun00]

What makes it look bad is that she throws false accusations in order to do it.

As for the comparison, Celene burned down an alienage to maintain her political strength. Anora (sole ruler) used violence to quell an elven riot caused by a shortage of food.

Meanwhile, King Alistair grants a seat at his court to one of the city elves (another title, not bann) and everything works out well. Funny how caring about your subjects makes a difference.

[ThomasBlaine]

What makes it look bad is that she throws false accusations in order to do it.

As for the comparison, Celene burned down an alienage to maintain her political strength. Anora (sole ruler) used violence to quell an elven riot caused by a shortage of food.

Meanwhile, King Alistair grants a seat at his court to one of the city elves (another title, not bann) and everything works out well. Funny how caring about your subjects makes a difference.

 

Accusing the Warden of slandering Loghain isn't fair if you brought proof and/witnessess, no, but otherwise I don't see why anything else she says can't be true from her perspective.

 

Burning down the equivalent of a large village for your own benefit is not comparable to knocking a few heads together during a riot in order to calm things down.

 

 

“With the slavers shut down in the Alienage, the lot of the city-born elves improved for a time. The new king even named the local elder to his personal court--a scandal amongst the humans, but a sign of new hope to the elves.”

 

That doesn't imply anything about the long term, much less that "everything works out perfectly". And "meanwhile" Anora establishes a university, raising the education level and potentially putting Ferelden on the path out of poverty. You certainly can't say that she doesn't care about her subjects.

[Asha'bellanar]

In keeping with the OP (as opposed to some of the rest of the thread), I'll say that I do appreciate the character. He stirs up a great deal of emotion and passion, and that's a good thing. He isn't flat, boring, or two-dimensional, and even if you don't like him, you can kind of get his motivations (if you've read "The Stolen Throne" you get him even more).

 

That said, I really can't stand him, and it's for an extremely personal and biased reason: he reminds me too much of my father. He never apologises (well, sort of, but it always comes across as a notpology, IMHO), will only admit he was wrong if there's absolutely no way out of it, he's always convinced he was right and even when it's shown that he probably wasn't, he has a million reasons and justifications for why, okay, maybe he wasn't right, but he still wasn't wrong, he's arrogant, and I could go on but I won't. (Am I talking about Loghain or my father? Hard to say. People who don't have my father issues might not interpret the character the way I do. I know some people totally love Loghain. Not many people seem to like my father, though.)

 

Note again that I am extremely biased in this, and I know it. My father and I have bad blood, and I have been in a state of no contact with my father for more than twenty years. Loghain reminding me of my father is because the character IS believable. If he weren't, I wouldn't be so bothered by him.

 

Hence my appreciation, but, at the same time, great dislike. The guy really creeps me out and ticks me off, so I never recruit him (did it once to get the achievement and to see what he was really about, took him to Ostagar, etc., so that's how I know he constantly triggers my father issues).

 

Rendon Howe, on the other hand, doesn't bother me. Oh, yes, from a story perspective he does because he's vile and evil, but he's pretty much only that. He doesn't have a lot of depth or motivation (other than "Bwahaha, I hate the Couslands! Die, Couslands, die! Now I shall be ultra powerful, bwahahaha!). I love, love, love Tim Curry, and think he does a great job with the voice work, but the character is pretty much cookie-cutter, bog-standard, and not very interesting. There was some indication that he was badly affected by his part in the Battle of White River (Bryland notes this in the Gnawed Noble), but that never really comes across, especially, and he's so vile that practically nobody would care that much even if it was pointed out more obviously.

 

Basically, I appreciate (but may not "like") any character that has enough realness to make me feel something about them, as I might if they were an actual person. I don't like Loghain, but that's why I appreciate him as a character.

 

And, face it, without Loghain, there wouldn't be much of a game. "Oh, sure, two remaining Grey Wardens, we'd love to help you, because there's a Blight coming! Let's just get these Orlesian Wardens and troops in, and everyone else will help however they can!"  Game would be over in less time than I spend in the character creator!

 

 

[ThomasBlaine]

Rendon Howe, on the other hand, doesn't bother me. Oh, yes, from a story perspective he does because he's vile and evil, but he's pretty much only that. He doesn't have a lot of depth or motivation (other than "Bwahaha, I hate the Couslands! Die, Couslands, die! Now I shall be ultra powerful, bwahahaha!).

 

His personal library is full of books about mabari. And he hates the Orlesians. That lowers him at least two grades on The Sliding Scale Of Antagonist Vileness. Enough said.

 

And yes, Loghain is very much the patriarch-type. Having grown up without a father and with a mother who wasn't exactly decisive, the idea of someone strong and competent like that taking charge and not second-guessing himself, and being willing to take drastic measures to protect what he loves, might well play a part in his appeal for me. I hadn't considered that.

[Addai]

I have to read again eveyrthing they say about Alistair's mother in DA:O, but there was something about "protecting the reputation of the queen" and that's why Alistair was "hidden". I don't see why it would be so important to protect Rowan's reputation if the deed was done long after her death. If it's not cheating, then it's different than betraying her while she was alive.

 

Here, Loghain clearly says that if Maric didn't aknowledge Alistair it was because "it would have ruined Rowan" (not her reputation only, herself, so it means she was alive) and make her look like a concubine in the eyes of other countries, so it sounds like it happened when she was alive:

Aw, one of my old videos. I had to pop on here to see what was going on before the forums go away. We had a Loghain fan thread ages ago, but I guess it went into retirement.

 

While I'm here I'll shamelessly flog. The Warden in the video was created on the model from my Loghain fanfiction.

https://www.fanficti...The-Arrangement

 

Oh, and here are those two crazy kids in a less serious moment.

 

[Qun00]

In keeping with the OP (as opposed to some of the rest of the thread), I'll say that I do appreciate the character. He stirs up a great deal of emotion and passion, and that's a good thing. He isn't flat, boring, or two-dimensional, and even if you don't like him, you can kind of get his motivations (if you've read "The Stolen Throne" you get him even more).

That said, I really can't stand him, and it's for an extremely personal and biased reason: he reminds me too much of my father. He never apologises (well, sort of, but it always comes across as a notpology, IMHO), will only admit he was wrong if there's absolutely no way out of it, he's always convinced he was right and even when it's shown that he probably wasn't, he has a million reasons and justifications for why, okay, maybe he wasn't right, but he still wasn't wrong, he's arrogant, and I could go on but I won't. (Am I talking about Loghain or my father? Hard to say. People who don't have my father issues might not interpret the character the way I do. I know some people totally love Loghain. Not many people seem to like my father, though.)

Note again that I am extremely biased in this, and I know it. My father and I have bad blood, and I have been in a state of no contact with my father for more than twenty years. Loghain reminding me of my father is because the character IS believable. If he weren't, I wouldn't be so bothered by him.

Hence my appreciation, but, at the same time, great dislike. The guy really creeps me out and ticks me off, so I never recruit him (did it once to get the achievement and to see what he was really about, took him to Ostagar, etc., so that's how I know he constantly triggers my father issues).

Rendon Howe, on the other hand, doesn't bother me. Oh, yes, from a story perspective he does because he's vile and evil, but he's pretty much only that. He doesn't have a lot of depth or motivation (other than "Bwahaha, I hate the Couslands! Die, Couslands, die! Now I shall be ultra powerful, bwahahaha!). I love, love, love Tim Curry, and think he does a great job with the voice work, but the character is pretty much cookie-cutter, bog-standard, and not very interesting. There was some indication that he was badly affected by his part in the Battle of White River (Bryland notes this in the Gnawed Noble), but that never really comes across, especially, and he's so vile that practically nobody would care that much even if it was pointed out more obviously.

Basically, I appreciate (but may not "like") any character that has enough realness to make me feel something about them, as I might if they were an actual person. I don't like Loghain, but that's why I appreciate him as a character.

And, face it, without Loghain, there wouldn't be much of a game. "Oh, sure, two remaining Grey Wardens, we'd love to help you, because there's a Blight coming! Let's just get these Orlesian Wardens and troops in, and everyone else will help however they can!" Game would be over in less time than I spend in the character creator!

Yeah, Loghain really doesn't make a good case in his defense.

There are maybe two lines where Loghain says he needs to atone, but that seems little when compared to the lengthy dialogue at camp where he justifies every single thing he did.

I don't care if he apologises or not, but the fact is that there is very little regret.

Ahhh, indeed. I can't get upset at anything done by a one dimensional villain, but I do have a problem with the good guys doing something wrong. The same goes for villains whose supposed good intentions don't feel understandable.