I suppose he could just not know that she's not "official" (if that's the case. I honestly have no idea). Doesn't she outrank him?
Viddasala does lead the Dangerous Purpose branch, but there was nothing to indicate that Hissrad was part of that branch, of anything he would have been in the Dangerous Questions branch, maybe Dangerous Actions.
Oh, no. Not by a long shot.
Well I disagree. I find the Chantry far more disgusting than the Qun, and Tevinter is worse.
So even if you have a high approval with Bull, if you don't save the Chargers, he betrays you?
Kinda BS, particularly since you learn that the Vidathari and that sect of Qunari were acting on their own.
"the qun is about unthinking loyalty". Qunaris attaches no importance for the freedom and Happiness, favoring valus such as the strengh, discipline and sense of duty and the sacrifice. the first name of hissrat meant liar. by killing charge, you cut his owns doubt on the qun.
Not really. The Qun is about unthinking loyalty. You convinced Bull to abandon his dearest and most loyal friends - to actually watch them die - and keep to his role. So he did.
Um....
I will disagree with that. I never convinced Bull to abandon his friends. I made a military choice as the ranking officer of the Inquisition on the field at the time to honor our Alliance with the Qunari and defend the ground we said we would defend. A consequence of that decision was that mercenaries within my employ lost their lives holding that ground.
And I never had a conversation with him encouraging him to keep his role within the Qun. He brought all of that up on his own without my counsel. That was something he came up with, or rationalized on his own. If I had my choice, he could have remained part of the Inquisition as Tal-Vashoth and I'd have simply dealt with the Ben-Hassrath Alliance through other agents.
Bull's choices are, for better or worse, his own either by his own loyalty having always been intact or because he fell back on his Qun conditioning when he had nothing else to distract him from it. Don't pin this on the Inquisitor. Characters within the world are capable of making their own decisions and coming to their own conclusions without the player telling them what to think.
Actually Aris that's what you did hence why he left the decision to you, you showed him that you should put your duty above those you care for and since he had nothing left but the Qun he got re educated again. I saved the chargers because honestly the Qunari info was ****. Me and bull stated the problems of the plan and the bloody elf was pretty much "don't worry about it!" "we can only do the plan this way!" We have no other choice! Sure really of course. -.- and asking bull about dreadnought runs he states "he does not like them because a lot of **** can go wrong with them." Plus they want me to pay with my best soldiers?
Knowing the Qunari even if I do this alliance I know when all this cory stuff is done they go right back to trying to convert/kill those resist? WHICH THEY DO!
I stated to the darn elf hey what if the venatori actually have more mages on the shore? Shouldn't we watch out for that? He was pretty much like NAAAH they don't have that many mages on the shore! =_______________________=
Of course Qunari whatever you say. Honestly I think this whole mission was to test Iron Bull's loyalty. -.-
Even knowing about the betrayal, it still feels wrong to sacrifice the dreadnought. One hundred people are on that ship, helping us deal with red lyrium. I can't justify pulling ground support just because they happen to belong to the Qun and I never sang tavern songs with them.
Does their philosophy have harmful aspects? Yes, quite a lot of harmful aspects. But I'm not going to punish someone for coming from a culture I disagree with, until they actually act on it. Preemptive strikes are almost never a moral high ground.
I do have some inquisitors save the Chargers, because we're all better at treating our people as real people in the heat of the moment, but I don't consider it the "right" decision. Any more than Solas is making the right decision favoring his people over modern Thedas, viewing modern Thedas as mindless, soulless... oh wait, that's how most people view the Qunari.
Really? I save the chargers because they give bad intel, refuse to listen to the opinions of said people you are making an alliance with and when the crap hits the fan because your rubbish intel I have to pay with my trusted/best soldiers? Yeah..... no.
Not really. The Qun is about unthinking loyalty. You convinced Bull to abandon his dearest and most loyal friends - to actually watch them die - and keep to his role. So he did.
Not to mention that he also lost an eye for one of those friends...
I fail to see how Cerberus, a racist organization wanting to enslave everyone who wasn't willing to follow their ideology and was openly racist, can be compared to the Qunari, for whom race actually doesn't matter.
Good thing I never compared the two.
Really? I save the chargers because they give bad intel, refuse to listen to the opinions of said people you are making an alliance with and when the crap hits the fan because your rubbish intel I have to pay with my trusted/best soldiers? Yeah..... no.
Btw before Iron Bull attacks, you can find an intercepted and opened letter. Where Qunari leaders deny any affiliation with Viddasala.
Sending and then intercepting their own letter makes no sense at all, the letter could not possibly hurt them anyway, there is nothing important in it. That makes Viddasala and her followers Tal Vashoth.
And as a follower of the Qun, Iron Bull is supposed to hate them more than anyone...
Um....
I will disagree with that. I never convinced Bull to abandon his friends. I made a military choice as the ranking officer of the Inquisition on the field at the time to honor our Alliance with the Qunari and defend the ground we said we would defend. A consequence of that decision was that mercenaries within my employ lost their lives holding that ground.
And I never had a conversation with him encouraging him to keep his role within the Qun. He brought all of that up on his own without my counsel. That was something he came up with, or rationalized on his own. If I had my choice, he could have remained part of the Inquisition as Tal-Vashoth and I'd have simply dealt with the Ben-Hassrath Alliance through other agents.
Bull's choices are, for better or worse, his own either by his own loyalty having always been intact or because he fell back on his Qun conditioning when he had nothing else to distract him from it. Don't pin this on the Inquisitor. Characters within the world are capable of making their own decisions and coming to their own conclusions without the player telling them what to think.
What in the world did he have left for not to choose the qun?
What in the world did he have left for not to choose the qun?
I never said that he should or should not have returned to the Qun.
I said that it was his choice to do so.
He didn't always have the Chargers. He could have found a new mercenary company, become a freelancer, joined the Inquisition unfettered by his ties to the Ben-Hassrath, gone from brothel to brothel finding redheads (mmm, redheads) to bed and drown his sorrows until he could face the world again.
He didn't. He made his choice.
And honestly, if he expected me to chose the Chargers over the Alliance, he should never have brought the Qunari request to my attention in the first place, or asked me to decline the offer. Or, he should have left the Chargers behind, and have it be a group of Inquisition soldiers holding that ground instead of his hired mercenaries.
There are any number of other ways this could have played out.
But the bottom line is this: he chose to bring the Alliance offer to me. If he wanted me to refuse it, he should have indicated that was the best course of action. He could have left the Chargers behind and asked for Inquisition support. He did not. He could have had the Chargers hold the other hill. He did not.
So when the decision falls on the Herald to determine what gets sacrificed, he has to live with the consequences of his actions, not the Herald's.
And I do not hold the responsibility for his actions post-The Storm Coast. That's on Bull, and Bull alone. He made his choices to return to the Qun instead of doing whatever else he could have done. That's his choice, either by his own free will, or because he fell back on his Qun conditioning and reasoned that was the best choice.
If anything, one could say by choosing the Alliance over the Chargers, the Herald might have reminded him that duty sometimes requires sacrifice. But I find it fascinating how many fans think it was the responsibility of the Herald to let the Dreadnought sink and ruin what was (at the time and with the information at hand) a good military Alliance for the sake of helping one mercenary under her command grow as a person.
Honestly, if the charges are the only thing that keeps him from the Qun, it's even worse. They are mercenaries, they could die any time. So he can return to the Qun anytime too.
Even romance with the Inquisitor doesn't stop him, only his precious charges can do it. He scares me more than Morrigan and Vivienne together 
i have chargers alive and he still betrays me,why???????
i have chargers alive and he still betrays me,why???????
Did you have the "after action" talk with him? Where the assassins try to stab him for betraying the Qun? If not, his quest is not registered as completed, as far as I know.
I find it very...odd...that they wait until almost no other option remains to give Bull the signal. I know it is dramatic license and all, but I brought Bull with me the entire DLC, which means he had to kill a *terrible* amount of fellow Qunari to keep his cover when backstabbing me in the first level of the DLC would have potentially prevented their deaths.
That really doesn't make sense from the point of wanting the Inquisitor dead, no need to wait to give the kill order.
Seriously, just imagine their thoughts. "Wait! Hissrad, you are on our side!!!! We outnumber them three to one, why are you helping them???"
I think Bull was re-educated. He killed hundreds of his friends and felt nothing when he tried to kill you and when he died.
They broke him.
No. Obviously the Chargers mean more to him than anything else. Much more than romanced Inquisitor. His entire "Iron Bull" personality revolves around them. Without them he'll happily betray you. You are nothing to him. Just "bas."
I don't think he needs any re-educating. There's something smug about him when he says "nothing personal... bas." Like he's been waiting for this. Somebody already said that the qunari are not unfeeling, mindless things... Even if they put their duty to the Qun first. Apparently Cole says that he doesn't regret betraying you. At all. That makes sense for his character. He is Hissrad.
Never trust the Qunari.
No. Obviously the Chargers mean more to him than anything else. Much more than romanced Inquisitor. His entire "Iron Bull" personality revolves around them. Without them he'll happily betray you. You are nothing to him. Just "bas."
That's one way of interpreting it.
Others have speculated that the Iron Bull really did feel torn down the middle in his quest, and that by telling him to choose to sacrifice the Chargers for the sake of the Qunari, you basically indirectly told Bull "Your loyalty to the Qun comes first, even before your friendships and relationships to non-Qunari." So that's exactly what he does; goes back to the Qunari and focuses his loyalty on them rather than his new friends. (And now people are mad when that includes them.)
It's worth noting, too, that Bull has undergone re-education before and has no problem with it. After working as a spy in Seheron for years and then experiencing burnout/PTSD (as he puts it, "one day I woke up and couldn't think of a damn reason to keep doing this"), he willingly turned himself into the re-educators because, in his words, "I was broken, and they fixed me."
It's possible that Bull felt that way after the Chargers died. It's possible he was hurting after the Chargers died, and he went to the re-educators to make it stop. Or he felt the only way to be truly loyal to the Qun (as you and his superiors suggested) was to wipe away his loyalty to non-Qunari. It's possible too that he didn't intend to undergo re-education, but his superiors sensed or guessed or could tell that Bull was "going native" during his time with the Inquisiton, and thus made him undergo re-education to "prove" his loyalty to the Qun.
We might never know, but I personally think re-education was involved. I don't think it was as easy as "You only ever saw you as a thing and the Chargers as people, then when the the Chargers died the Iron Bull died with them." I think it was more of an involved process than that.
I don't think he needs any re-educating. There's something smug about him when he says "nothing personal...bas." Like he's been waiting for this. Somebody already said that the qunari are not unfeeling, mindless things... Even if they put their duty to the Qun first. Apparently Cole says that he doesn't regret betraying you. At all. That makes sense for his character. He is Hissrad.
That may be, but Cole also didn't sense Bull's intention to betray you beforehand. If it was personal, Cole would have sensed it. If Bull was secretly harboring a grudge against you for killing the Chargers (rage, grief, bitterness, resentment, etc), I think Cole would have known before he revealed himself.
It could just be what it seems; a blind re-education and/or commitment to the Qun and no pain/guilt to go with hurting a bas.
It's worth noting, too, that Bull has undergone re-education before and has no problem with it. After working as a spy in Seheron for years and then experiencing burnout/PTSD (as he puts it, "one day I woke up and couldn't think of a damn reason to keep doing this"), he willingly turned himself into the re-educators because, in his words, "I was broken, and they fixed me."
But they didn't fix him. That's the point. Thematically, his name isn't Hissrad because he's lying to others - it's because he's lying to himself. That's why the major character in his narrative arc - about the Qun, a philosophy/religion defined by certainty of identity - is someone who is certain of his identity and has suffered all his life for it (i.e., Krem). If the IB loses the chargers, he just breaks. I believe Cole has a banter about the IB basically being dead inside after that point.
Um....
I will disagree with that. I never convinced Bull to abandon his friends. I made a military choice as the ranking officer of the Inquisition on the field at the time to honor our Alliance with the Qunari and defend the ground we said we would defend. A consequence of that decision was that mercenaries within my employ lost their lives holding that ground.
And I never had a conversation with him encouraging him to keep his role within the Qun. He brought all of that up on his own without my counsel. That was something he came up with, or rationalized on his own. If I had my choice, he could have remained part of the Inquisition as Tal-Vashoth and I'd have simply dealt with the Ben-Hassrath Alliance through other agents.
Bull's choices are, for better or worse, his own either by his own loyalty having always been intact or because he fell back on his Qun conditioning when he had nothing else to distract him from it. Don't pin this on the Inquisitor. Characters within the world are capable of making their own decisions and coming to their own conclusions without the player telling them what to think.
No. You told the IB to watch his friends die, because his friends lives weren't worth the military goal. You can say that you didn't do it for the sake of having him watch his friends die. And unless you happened to be a psycho, that has to go without saying. But that doesn't change what it means to the IB to let watch the Chargers get massacred.
The IB's entire path, after he turns himself in for re-education, is about finding himself. He has an identity crisis. The outcome is completely on the Inquisitor, because the IB can't make a choice. He doesn't assume responsibility for himself in the moment, and begs you to do it for him. At that point, even if you can predict what he becomes, you're the cause of it. And if you didn't care about the impact it will have on him, because you don't think it's your role to sort out his emotional damage, well, then you can't really complain that this emotionally shattered man does something reckless and dangerous, and ultimately betrays you.
No. You told the IB to watch his friends die, because his friends lives weren't worth the military goal. You can say that you didn't do it for the sake of having him watch his friends die. And unless you happened to be a psycho, that has to go without saying. But that doesn't change what it means to the IB to let watch the Chargers get massacred.
The IB's entire path, after he turns himself in for re-education, is about finding himself. He has an identity crisis. The outcome is completely on the Inquisitor, because the IB can't make a choice. He doesn't assume responsibility for himself in the moment, and begs you to do it for him. At that point, even if you can predict what he becomes, you're the cause of it. And if you didn't care about the impact it will have on him, because you don't think it's your role to sort out his emotional damage, well, then you can't really complain that this emotionally shattered man does something reckless and dangerous, and ultimately betrays you.
That may be, but Cole also didn't sense Bull's intention to betray you beforehand. If it was personal, Cole would have sensed it. If Bull was secretly harboring a grudge against you for killing the Chargers (rage, grief, bitterness, resentment, etc), I think Cole would have known before he revealed himself.
True, I didn't consider that.
Still, there is no actual in-game evidence that suggests he was re-educated. It could've happen, sure, but you'd think it would've been mentioned or at least hinted at some some point.
Maybe there was no personal grudge (like I suggested). Maybe for Hissrad it really was just a job and he actually means it when he says: "it's not personal." He was just honor bound to obey his superiors and the will of the Qun. After all, he does betray you even if the Chargers live and you just didn't do his personal quest. In that case Hissrad is the dominate personality all along.
No. You told the IB to watch his friends die, because his friends lives weren't worth the military goal. You can say that you didn't do it for the sake of having him watch his friends die. And unless you happened to be a psycho, that has to go without saying. But that doesn't change what it means to the IB to let watch the Chargers get massacred.
The Inquisitor only honored the deal with the Qunari. And Iron Bull agreed. He could've still warned the Chargers - he didn't. To say he was incapable of making decisions at that point is just sad if true. The Inquisitor is there to save the world, not play a psychiatrist. Solas calls the Iron Bull "a mindless drone" and maybe he is right. Even so, it was Iron Bull who decided to stay with the Qun and remain Hissrad. It was Iron Bull who says he doesn't want to be "The Iron Bull" after that. Maybe he feels like he has no choice, but there is always choice.
As for the Inquisitor, he only cared about securing an alliance with the Qunari. It wasn't about Iron Bull at all. It's the game that makes that decision the critical point in IB's character arc. It's the only decision that matters - it doesn't matter if you're his friend or lover. From the Inquisitors point of view he has no way to know what causes the Iron Bull to turn against him. Iron Bull never lets the Inquisitor see how much losing the Chargers hurts him. The Inquisitor loses soldiers all the time - and he doesn't go through personal crisis over it or even lose sleep at night. It's what it is. War. If IB cannot handle that, then why did he become captain of the mercenary company in the first place?
I would say it's Iron Bulls own fault. After Seheron you'd think he knows that sometimes you have to make sacrifices. It was his own mistake to get too attached to his troops - he even thanks the Inquisitor for reminding him of the truth. It makes me think he really doesn't want to be Iron Bull. Or at least it's very fragile personality. One that could break at any given time. If you force him to become Tal'Vasoth he doesn't have a choice - he can never return to the Qun after that. Solas praises him "you made the first decision in your life" but that's not true. He didn't make the decision. That seems to be the point.
Obviously IB knew about Viddasalas plan all along: "now, Hissrad." They must have agreed the Inquisitor needs to be eliminated. The Qunari see the Inquisitor as someone who no longer has a purpose; they see the anchor as a threat and believe the Inquisition is working for the Dread Wolf. It seems like Cole wasn't aware of their plan - but if he can read minds why didn't he see this in Iron Bulls mind? Maybe, as he is a demon, he is only drawn to memories that evoke strong emotions - and if Iron Bull feels nothing (there is only certainty) over the fact that he has been ordered to kill his friend/lover, then that's why Cole doesn't see it coming.
I wonder if this is something that will ever be confirmed. I would certainly like to know what IB's motivations were at that point. Did he ever care about the Inquisitor or was it a lie from the beginning? I don't like the re-education fan theory, because it seems like such a easy way out - he was brainwashed and that's why he betrayed you...
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