And.... The Hero and Alistair are both Wardens, acting on the Warden treaties specifically drafted by the Wardens in the event of a Blight, which requires a Warden to finish.
See where I'm going with this?
If you go back on this thread, this topic has been dicussed quite avidly.
Wardens that acted on their own, so pretty much they were 2 individuals that on their own stoped blight without any support from grey warden order. That they used treaties is as good argument that i used badge to further my goals and by that police was involved.
2 individuals members of organisation acting on their own don't represent entire organization , once again to use kind stormtrooper example that stormtrooper was kind and helped you out of their own will doesn't mean galactic empire is nor that means it was galactic empire contribution...
Considering that a Blight was underway and the sole purpose of the Warden's continued existence is to combat future Blights, I think it's safe to say that Alistair and the Hero were working with the Wardens' interests in mind.
You also act like Alistair and the Hero were totally alone. There was also Duncan before his death and Riordan, plus the Orlesian Wardens whom Loghain denied entry into Ferelden. I like to think that maybe Alistair's and the Hero's actions aren't so out of place when all of these other people are either actively or attempting to do them too.
Also, good job comparing the Empire, an organization that is unambiguously lawful "evil" as a whole with little to no redeeming qualities whatsoever, to the Wardens, who have been depicted as chaotic neutral at their lowest showings.
Considering that a Blight was underway and the sole purpose of the Warden's continued existence is to combat future Blights, I think it's safe to say that Alistair and the Hero were working with the Wardens' interests in mind.
You also act like Alistair and the Hero were totally alone. There was also Duncan before his death and Riordan, plus the Orlesian Wardens whom Loghain denied entry into Ferelden. I like to think that maybe Alistair's and the Hero's actions aren't so out of place when all of these other people are either actively or attempting to do them too.
Also, good job comparing the Empire, an organization that is unambiguously lawful "evil" as a whole with little to no redeeming qualities whatsoever, to the Wardens, who have been depicted as chaotic neutral at their lowest showings.
In first place they were working on their own whims not grey warden order orders so pretty much plan to stop blight was HoF plan was not approved nor was supported by grey warden order in first place , in fact as revealed order disliked HoF and Alistair doings during blight.So pretty much plan was born by individual and was executed by an individual without any support from order ,sorry but no organisation doesn't deserve credit for effort of its 1 or 2 individual members that didn't recive practically any help from said organisation .
LoL , Duncan was dead before HoF mission even started so i don't know why you even bring him up, while Riordan showed up in near the end of the game and by that warden mission ,pretty much that is about it when it comes to order contribution.Also those orlesian wardens didn't contribute like it or no.
Your call if you don't like an example because it doesn't suits your morals, but my example is legitimate and i used contrasting examples of 1 individual and organisation they work for for better effect to show that individual actions of member of oragnisation on their own aren't contribution of said organisation, nor such individual reflects organisation. If you want da example and in fact concerning grey wardens it will be Alistair/Stroud/Loghain actions as individual member, to actions of Grey wardens as an organisation in dragon age inquisition.
Your call if you don't like an example because it doesn't suits your morals, but my example is legitimate and i used contrasting examples of 1 individual and organisation they work for for better effect to show that individual actions of member of oragnisation on their own aren't contribution of said organisation, nor such individual reflects organisation. If you want da example and in fact concerning grey wardens it will be Alistair/Stroud/Loghain actions as individual member, to actions of Grey wardens as an organisation in dragon age inquisition.
No, your comparison was awful because it was an awful comparison. I explained to you why. The Galactic Empire and the Wardens are nothing even remotely alike. The fact that you made that comparison at all shows how little you know between the two.
No, your comparison was awful because it was an awful comparison. I explained to you why. The Galactic Empire and the Wardens are nothing even remotely alike. The fact that you made that comparison at all shows how little you know between the two.
Not rly , in first place i wasn't comparing them as organisations only pointing obvious (at least for some) difference between actions and mentality of individual and organisation ,so pointing moral differences between organizations serves no purpose here.
Not really, in first place i wasn't comparing them as organizations only pointing obvious (at least for some) difference between actions and mentality of individual and organization ,so pointing moral differences between organizations serves no purpose here.
Dude, stop bringing up this topic. Seriously, it's getting old now. Why don't you go to the DAO thread and say this to them? Oh wait, people will relate even harder against your augremnts.
You should stop whining about it seems you do that just because im right and you can't stand it, in first place i discussed it with someone who brought it up not i brought it up in this discussion, another person simply responded to thing i have said earlier.You can keep your false accusations for yourself. 
You should stop whining about it seems you do that just because im right and you can't stand it, in first place i discussed it with someone who brought it up not i brought it up in this discussion, another person simply responded to thing i have said earlier.You can keep your false accusations to yourself.
Yeah, but it's a DAO subject you keep bringing up.
Once again, im not bringing it up.I think brought it up about maybe 3-4 times and that was including another topics ,rest were just my replies to people on that topic.
Second, what im saying is related to Teagan behavior in dragon age inquisition and people continually complaining how ungrateful he is because he says something bad about organisation (even if he just pointed historical fact) just because individual member of said organisation helped him on their own in the past.
You should stop whining about it seems you do that just because im right and you can't stand it, in first place i discussed it with someone who brought it up not i brought it up in this discussion, another person simply responded to thing i have said earlier.You can keep your false accusations for yourself.
"rubs forehead in annoyance"
Except that you're not right despite your assertions and there's a lot left to be desired from the Exalted Council's arguments including from Teagan himself.
The so-called historical fact that he's bringing up is a situation where the Ferelden nobility begged the wardens for help against a tyrant king. It's not at all a situation where they were "seizing power to restore order" like Teagan insists. Even if Teagan doesn't know about this (which is debatable depending on if Alistair told him or not), the players know this and this puts a huge hole in his comparison between the wardens and the inquisition and hence why people would believe that he's grasping at straws. Because apart from Dryden's insurrection, the wardens haven't committed any harm to Ferelden and there's nothing that happened in the past 14 years to back Teagan's strawman argument.
Your comparison between the empire and the grey wardens don't work at all because one is a tyrannical dictatorship that blows up planets and enslaves/murders billions of people in the name of ruling the galaxy through power, fear and terror. They also enslave/persecute non-humans and support a pro-human supremist philosophy akin to Nazis. The other is an organization born to fight against the greatest threat that Thedas had ever known and has saved the world from said-threat no less than five times while doing whatever is necessary to protect Thedas. They also recruit from all races and backgrounds and promote individuals based on deeds and merit.
So like Teagan's comparison, your comparison doesn't work because the Grey Wardens and the Galactic Empire are two fundamentally different organizations with differing goals, methods and morality. At worst, the Wardens are grey out of necessity while the Empire is dark grey on their best day and outright evil most of the year.
A good stormtrooper acting morally good despite his affiliation to the evil empire isn't a good comparison to 2 wardens who are carrying out the "inherently good/grey" mission instilled in them by their order. As the wardens actions were done to fight the blight, then these are intrinsically beneficial regardless of the number and they are beneficial to all of Thedas including Ferelden. This is an action that reflects back to the heart of the Grey Wardens mission which is to protect Thedas from the Darkspawn and Blight whereas the Empire is created as a tyrannic organization that propagates death, destruction, prejudice and genocide ran by a Dark Side Cult who believe that murder, manipulation and evil are paths to power and control.
Furthermore, Alistair and the HoF were only alone not by choice, but because every other warden in the Ferelden Branch DIED at Ostagar trying to protect Ferelden from the Blight. And the orlesian Wardens were rushing to try and help, but Loghain blocked them because of his paranoia even as the darkspawn were taking over and destroying his beloved homeland. So yes, Teagan's gratitude should extend to the order considering all of the above and that the surviving wardens saved him, his home, his family and his home. There may have only been 2 wardens, but they were carrying on their orders and duty that the rest (mainly Duncan) had instilled in them before their untimely death.
Criticism is one thing, but badmouthing the people that you owe your life and country to based on a strawman argument that has no founding except for an incident that occurred 200 years ago (and again, we've been over this one) to try explain why another organization should completely disband is going to punch a giant hole in whatever validity that Teagan had in his arguments.
"rubs forehead in annoyance"
Except that you're not right despite your assertions and there's a lot left to be desired from the Exalted Council's arguments including from Teagan himself.
The so-called historical fact that he's bringing up is a situation where the Ferelden nobility begged the wardens for help against a tyrant king. It's not at all a situation where they were "seizing power to restore order" like Teagan insists. Even if Teagan doesn't know about this (which is debatable depending on if Alistair told him or not), the players know this and this puts a huge hole in his comparison between the wardens and the inquisition and hence why people would believe that he's grasping at straws. Because apart from Dryden's insurrection, the wardens haven't committed any harm to Ferelden and there's nothing that happened in the past 14 years to back Teagan's strawman argument.
Your comparison between the empire and the grey wardens don't work at all because one is a tyrannical dictatorship that blows up planets and enslaves/murders billions of people in the name of ruling the galaxy through power, fear and terror. They also enslave/persecute non-humans and support a pro-human supremist philosophy akin to Nazis. The other is an organization born to fight against the greatest threat that Thedas had ever known and has saved the world from said-threat no less than five times while doing whatever is necessary to protect Thedas. They also recruit from all races and backgrounds and promote individuals based on deeds and merit.
So like Teagan's comparison, your comparison doesn't work because the Grey Wardens and the Galactic Empire are two fundamentally different organizations with differing goals, methods and morality. At worst, the Wardens are grey out of necessity while the Empire is dark grey on their best day and outright evil most of the year.
A good stormtrooper acting morally good despite his affiliation to the evil empire isn't a good comparison to 2 wardens who are carrying out the "inherently good/grey" mission instilled in them by their order. As the wardens actions were done to fight the blight, then these are intrinsically beneficial regardless of the number and they are beneficial to all of Thedas including Ferelden. This is an action that reflects back to the heart of the Grey Wardens mission which is to protect Thedas from the Darkspawn and Blight whereas the Empire is created as a tyrannic organization that propagates death, destruction, prejudice and genocide ran by a Dark Side Cult who believe that murder, manipulation and evil are paths to power and control.
Furthermore, Alistair and the HoF were only alone not by choice, but because every other warden in the Ferelden Branch DIED at Ostagar trying to protect Ferelden from the Blight. And the orlesian Wardens were rushing to try and help, but Loghain blocked them because of his paranoia even as the darkspawn were taking over and destroying his beloved homeland. So yes, Teagan's gratitude should extend to the order considering all of the above and that the surviving wardens saved him, his home, his family and his home. There may have only been 2 wardens, but they were carrying on their orders and duty that the rest (mainly Duncan) had instilled in them before their untimely death.
Criticism is one thing, but badmouthing the people that you owe your life and country to based on a strawman argument that has no founding except for an incident that occurred 200 years ago (and again, we've been over this one) to try explain why another organization should completely disband is going to punch a giant hole in whatever validity that Teagan had in his arguments.
Of course im right.
In first place once again grey wardens did attack ferelden authorities you can scream and kick they did that for a "noble" cause and with help of some nobles but it won't change simple fact it was attack on ferelden authorities and attempt to seize control over ferelden by grey wardens ,tyrant or not.So Teagan isn't allwed to bring historical facts about grey wardens actions because? It doesn't matter if it was 1000 , 100 or 10 years ago it was something that grey wardens did and Teagan as well anyone is allowed to bring it and compare with whatever they want.
In first place i see you didn't bother read what i have wrote before because your poor accusations that my example is invalid because how dare i compare galactic empire to grey wardens... in first place read my comment in this very thread and on this page where i already explained that morality of grey wardens and galactic empire are utterly irevelant because i wasn't comparing them as organisations simply pointing difference between actions of single individual and an organisation.
So , read what somone is saying before you start screaming that somone dared to say bad word or refused to say good word about grey wardens.
Once again they weren't carring grey warden mission they carried their own mission that wasn't supported , approved or even acknowledged by the order that didn't provide any sort of help in this mission.You can scream and kick once again that it was order achievement but it isn't because once again whole mission was carried and started by 1-2 individual members of the organisation that recived no support from their organisation , so no it isn't, grey warden order doesn't get props just because they exist and indivdual member did something. And once again your strawman argument that grey wardens would help if loghain didn't block them from ferelden won't change fact they didn't contribute because what if scenario is irrelevant here and no by any mean HoF mission wasn't Duncans order (lol) ,in first place it was started after duncan death so nope.Teagan doesn't owe that to the order Teagan owes it to HoF that was single member of entire organisation wokring on his own whims ,so pretty much stormtrooper and galactic empire example works....
Conclusion:
Individual Effort ≠ Organisation Effort.
Of course im right.
In first place once again grey wardens did attack ferelden authorities you can scream and kick they did that for a "noble" cause and with help of some nobles but it won't change simple fact it was attack on ferelden authorities and attempt to seize control over ferelden by grey wardens ,tyrant or not.So Teagan isn't allwed to bring historical facts about grey wardens actions because? It doesn't matter if it was 1000 , 100 or 10 years ago it was something that grey wardens did and Teagan as well anyone is allowed to bring it and compare with whatever they want.
In first place i see you didn't bother read what i have wrote before because your poor accusations that my example is invalid because how dare i compare galactic empire to grey wardens... in first place read my comment in this very thread and on this page where i already explained that morality of grey wardens and galactic empire are utterly irevelant because i wasn't comparing them as organisations simply pointing difference between actions of single individual and an organisation.
So , read what somone is saying before you start screaming that somone dared to say bad word or refused to say good word about grey wardens.
Once again they weren't carring grey warden mission they carried their own mission that wasn't supported , approved or even acknowledged by the order that didn't provide any sort of help in this mission.You can scream and kick once again that it was order achievement but it isn't because once again whole mission was carried and started by 1-2 individual members of the organisation that recived no support from their organisation , so no it isn't, grey warden order doesn't get props just because they exist and indivdual member did something. And once again your strawman argument that grey wardens would help if loghain didn't block them from ferelden won't change fact they didn't contribute because what if scenario is irrelevant here and no by any mean HoF mission wasn't Duncans order (lol) ,in first place it was started after duncan death so nope.Teagan doesn't owe that to the order Teagan owes it to HoF that was single member of entire organisation wokring on his own whims ,so pretty much stormtrooper and galactic empire example works....
Kermit said it best.
Keep your opinion, but don't act like it's the only valid one or that others are dumb for not thinking the way that you do.
Teagan's free to bring up historical facts if he wants as long as he maintains a good understanding of said facts and not misconstrue them as he has. But the distance between the past and present and the many beneficial actions that the Wardens have done for Ferelden in recent times concerning the Blight and Amaranthine far outweigh this one incident.
You clearly didn't read when I was referring not just to the moral context of the empire, but also it's purpose and methods in comparison to the grey wardens. Your example can't work if you're going to ignore important contexts for the empire and the wardens.
This would make your example into a false equivalance: https://en.wikipedia...se_equivalence:A logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. And my previous post already pointed out the differences between the empire and the grey wardens and hence why comparing one to the other doesn't work or why your attempts to downplay the Grey Warden Order's role in Ferelden's survival and why Teagan should act more grateful towards said-order doesn't work.
I've pointed out that the only reason that there were only 2 wardens helping was because the rest of them died trying to save Ferelden and the survivors were carrying on the mission. (Not a direct order, but still fulfilling the duty of a Grey warden.)
Loghain's interference is relevant for the fact that wardens did try to aid Ferelden, but were rebuffed and still sent Riorden to figure out what was going on. If not for that interference, Orlesian wardens would also be arriving to help Ferelden against the Blight along with Orlesian reinforcements.That indicates that the order as a whole was attempting to fulfill their function and the only reason that only 2-4 could actively fulfill that function was interference from outside factors (loghain) or that the rest of the Ferelden wardens were literally dead.
The 2 wardens are still fulfilling warden protocol and duty through their actions and therefore, Teagan oughta hold his tongue before blindly bashing them. Or at least get his facts straight and have more than a distant 200 year event to back up his comparison because NOTHING in recent times supports him.
And I'm done. Because based on my past experience with you, I'm certain nothing I've said will change your mind and nor will your inevitable reply change mine. Though I'd advise checking for the definition of a strawman before accusing someone of using a strawman or you'll discredit yourself by blinding accusing others of using strawman arguments because they don't blindly accept your assertions. My point about Loghain and the orlesian wardens wasn't a false argument, it actually happened and compounded Ferelden's situation at a time when wardens were needed most. Also try to avoid false equivalences in future debates or your opponents will be given the idea that you have no idea about what you're talking about.
Kermit said it best.
Keep your opinion, but don't act like it's the only valid one or that others are dumb for not thinking the way that you do.
Teagan's free to bring up historical facts if he wants as long as he maintains a good understanding of said facts and not misconstrue them as he has. But the distance between the past and present and the many beneficial actions that the Wardens have done for Ferelden in recent times concerning the Blight and Amaranthine far outweigh this one incident.
You clearly didn't read when I was referring not just to the moral context of the empire, but also it's purpose and methods in comparison to the grey wardens. Your example can't work if you're going to ignore important contexts for the empire and the wardens.
This would make your example into a false equivalance: https://en.wikipedia...se_equivalence:A logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. And my previous post already pointed out the differences between the empire and the grey wardens and hence why comparing one to the other doesn't work or why your attempts to downplay the Grey Warden Order's role in Ferelden's survival and why Teagan should act more grateful towards said-order doesn't work.
I've pointed out that the only reason that there were only 2 wardens helping was because the rest of them died trying to save Ferelden and the survivors were carrying on the mission. (Not a direct order, but still fulfilling the duty of a Grey warden.)
Loghain's interference is relevant for the fact that wardens did try to aid Ferelden, but were rebuffed and still sent Riorden to figure out what was going on. If not for that interference, Orlesian wardens would also be arriving to help Ferelden against the Blight along with Orlesian reinforcements.That indicates that the order as a whole was attempting to fulfill their function and the only reason that only 2-4 could actively fulfill that function was interference from outside factors (loghain) or that the rest of the Ferelden wardens were literally dead.
The 2 wardens are still fulfilling warden protocol and duty through their actions and therefore, Teagan oughta hold his tongue before blindly bashing them. Or at least get his facts straight and have more than a distant 200 year event to back up his comparison because NOTHING in recent times supports him.
And I'm done. Because based on my past experience with you, I'm certain nothing I've said will change your mind and nor will your inevitable reply change mine. Though I'd advise checking for the definition of a strawman before accusing someone of using a strawman or you'll discredit yourself by blinding accusing others of using strawman arguments because they don't blindly accept your assertions. My point about Loghain and the orlesian wardens wasn't a false argument, it actually happened and compounded Ferelden's situation at a time when wardens were needed most. Also try to avoid false equivalences in future debates or your opponents will be given the idea that you have no idea about what you're talking about.
Yes , Kermit was talking about you.
That isn't opinion just simply fact .
He didn't, i have explained why he didn't.Grey wardens did pretty much what Teagan said so i don't see problem here.Also Once again effort of 1 member of the organisation ≠ effort of organisation ,pretty much actions you are talking about were effort of individual grey warden not effort of the organisation that didn't contribute to it.
Ehh no i did read , sadly you doesn't seem understand (and now you try pin blame on me) that morality of the organisation does involve objective and methods of said organisation. 
Sadly what you are talking about applies to you not me. In first place i didn't compare grey wardens and empire and and you act as i do , when i simply posted example difference between effort of the single individual member of the organisation and effort of the whole organisation.So sorry but morality of organisation doesn't apply here.I have already pointed in-universe example of actions of the Alistair/Loghain/Stroud (individual effort) to actions of the Grey Warden Order (institutional effort) as another example referring to the same very thing and showing difference.So, yes point behind my example applies to any organisation regardless of its morality.
And reason that rest of grey warden died and didn't contribute is once again irrelevant because it simply explains why they died and didn't contribute ,but fact stays they didn't contribute.Going on his/her own missions was hardly HoF duty and what s/he did wasn't liked by order ,so yes once again avoiding all things i have already said order wasn't happy about HoF actions what only reinforces further that it was indvidual effort.
Well nice excuse , but as i said above an excuse of why they didn't contribute still doesn't change fact that they didn't contribute and it is irrelevant because what we discuss is an contribution of the order to HoF mission not why they didn't contribute.So sorry but i tried contribute and i contributed to your mission are 2 very different things , so in the end once again Grey Warden Order didn't contribute to HoF mission ,nor in fact they knew about it or approved it.
Once again no , HoF went on their own mission without support and approval from the Order what s/he did was individual effort not an organisation effort because as i 1000 times mentioned Order didn't contributed or even sanctioned this mission.All actions that HoF did during fifth blight was his/her individual whims and order didn't contributed to said actions.So once again Teagan owes it to single individual no an organisation that took no part in it aside from sending Riordan near the end of HoF mission. 
I do know definition so i don't need to check it and it applies to your argument.Your argument jumped all over places just to prove me wrong despite as i said your argument had no point whatsover to fact and argument we discussed that Grey Warden order didn't contribute to stopping fifth blight but you continuted use argument that only explained why they didn't and well served no real point , because my argument was they didn't contribute and it stays regardless of your argument that was there only to make me look wrong and was using some insane logic. 
Just an advice, Shadow, TKS will disregard any argument that is not his own and seemingly loves to have the last word, so, it's up to you end the wall post here.
Nah , disregard just bad ones ,that you had mostly those in our discussion wasn't my fault.I love to discuss and argue, as i do love pointing other people they are wrong even if they refuse harsh reality and decide stay in their comfy zone i take satisfaction in argument. 
TKS: Really? I've only see you mocking people's arguments and always proclaiming yourself to be right, even when your arguments are pretty incongruent often enough, on this matter you don't stop to speaking of the individual actions aren't the order's actions, yet you take Sophia's invasion as the order's, being fair, whatever the Wardens do without being supported for Weishaupt's tinfoil hat leadership can be disavow as The Order's actions same applies for Warden's heroism, they only are heroic because of five dudes that killed Archdemons.
Because you see what you want to see , that is pretty much what most people do anyway and then later we have such claims that i compared myself to Hitler , talk about something everywhere or claimed something i didn't.My arguments are always coherent.It were order actions so were in Clarel case , both Sophia and Clarel had almost entire branch of order following her ,what in short was a lot of grey wardens when HoF pretty much had 1 warden following him and wasn't even authority figure or few recruits that s/he recruited on his/her own in expansion.Sorry, but i will have go with what order did as whole in dai rather judge order basing on Alistair/Stroud/Loghain actions just because they happen to be grey wardens.
Because you see what you want to see , that is pretty much what most people do anyway and then later we have such claims that i compared myself to Hitler , talk about something everywhere or claimed something i didn't.My arguments are always coherent.It were order actions so were in Clarel case , both Sophia and Clarel had almost entire branch of order following her ,what in short was a lot of grey wardens when HoF pretty much had 1 warden following him and wasn't even authority figure or few recruits that s/he recruited on his/her own in expansion.Sorry, but i will have go with what order did as whole in dai rather judge order basing on Alistair/Stroud/Loghain actions just because they happen to be grey wardens.
I suspect that Eamon knew the truth, likely because Maric had been forced to bring him into the loop.
Eamon probably wasn't thrilled to learn of Maric getting someone pregnant only a few years after his sister died, so I doubt that Maric would have risked alienating his brother-in-law (who's an incredibly powerful man) by telling him that the woman in question was a scullery maid in Eamon's own employ. It'd have been a smack in the face to both Rowan's memory and Eamon's hospitality that Maric would cavort with one of his servants.
If Maric wanted to convince Eamon to remain silent, then I suspect that Maric offered the full truth and that Alistair was elf-blooded. While it would be blackmail material Eamon could use over him, Maric would have knonw that Eamon would never risk having the scandal tarnish both Cailan and the memory of his sister, simply as a means to spite his brother-in-law.
Another reason is that by asking him to serve as Alistair's guardian, he was already entrusting him to keep the secret of Maric having an illegitimate son. Goldanna's mother was in Eamon's employ when she died in childbirth, so it makes more sense for him to suggest her as the decoy to throw off any suspicion about who the true mother was.
Finally, Eamon's a sharp bloke, so he'd have never bought into the lie even if Maric had intended to keep the truth from him.
Eamon obviously knew that the scullery maid in question, a member of his own household, died in childbirth and her child with her. Maric could not have pulled that off under his nose and wouldn't have tried. Using her as a decoy was doubtless Eamon's idea.
*reads through TKS's posts*
https://youtu.be/DnHHDzQ4Axw?t=95
*reads through TKS's posts*
https://youtube/DnHHDzQ4Axw?t=95
I'm glad I'm not alone in this. I've given up arguing with TKS at this point, really.
We are three on this then...
Except that your arguments are incoherent and you stubbornly insist on upholding it even after they've been torpedoed. I'm starting to sense that you're a troll in disguise based your behavior and replies. If anything, it's clear that you're the one who sees what you want to see despite the games clearing showing and telling differently and your arrogant attitude isn't helping matters. When I was pointing out the logical fallicy thing, I wasn't blaming you for anything, I was merely pointing out why your empire/warden comparison doesn't work because beyond your surface comparison, they are such different organizations that your example doesn't work in the context of the discussion.We've been over Sophia and Clarel also doesn't fit because the wardens were being manipulated, deceived and controlled by a powerful outside force beyond their control. It is an extreme outlier that does not apply to normal Warden behavior and was only one branch of the wardens anyway. Also, these were Orlesian wardens were essentially self-mutilating themselves rather than attacking Ferelden or Orlais and even the wardens who captured Divine Justinia were under Corypheus' control. It certainly isn't a situation where "the wardens seized power in the name of restoring order", but rather a situation where they were tragically deceived into using their best strengths against themselves.Insane logic? Wow...how is pointing out what actually happened between Loghain and the orlesian wardens at the border insane logic? It actually happened and without that incident, more wardens would have arrived to do what the surviving Ferelden wardens were doing. So again, your persistent attempts to say that the actions of 2 wardens don't count towards the order are nonsense because there were only 2 because of Ostagar and Loghain. That's not insane logic or strawmanning, that's the fact of the situation and Teagan in Origins knew that, the Crown knew that and that's why they gave Amaranthine to the Wardens in gratitude for stopping the Blight and to help the Ferelden wardens rebuild. A decision which also benefited Ferelden as Amaranthine became a major trade partner with an increased power base. It also goes to show why Teagan's hostility towards the wardens makes no sense if all he has is a distant historical event to go off of as opposed to the present where wardens died to protect Ferelden and the survivors saved him, his family and his people, and again, any player that played Warden's Keep would know that Sophia's situation was far more grey than Teagan implies.I wouldn't care normally since everyone's entitled to their own opinion (right or wrong), but much like Teagan, your's needs work so that it's an informed opinion rather than a tinfoil one. The former helps others take you more seriously in discussion and indicates that you know what you're talking about and can therefore contribute meaningfully to a debate or discussion; the latter just leads to annoyance and nonsense. Right now, you're the latter and are in denial about it.So have the last laugh if you want. Keep your flawed opinion if you want. It won't make you nor Teagan right. Kermit and I know better than that cause the one using nonsensical insane logic here is you.
Heh, i literally explained to you why point behind my example applies to every organisation and morality of the organisation is absolutely irrelevant and still all you are you able to do at this point is kick and scream the same thing that morality of said organisation is different thus my example doesn't work despite i provided example with same point behind concerning oranisation we are discussing.Sorry, but you are one who throws logical fallacies left or right and try apply morality when morality is irrelevant.
Sorry , but no Sophia knew what she was doing and wasn't manipulated by anyone, so you are making stuff up to whitewash grey warden.Clarel when was manipulated still her actions and grey wardens she lead were their own and doesn't cancels things they have done just because "i trusted magister and decided to summon demon army". I don't understand what you are talking about, when and where i said Clarel was trying to seize Ferelden , it seems yet another your argument to point im wrong but pretty much is out of nowhere. From what I recall i used Clarel and wardens following her as example of organized actions of the collective and by that an organisation.
It is insane logic, because once again i have repeat myself reason why they didn't contribute is irrelevant because we don't discuss why grey wardens didn't contribute we discuss simply fact they didn't contribute. So pretty much to simplify to maximum what im saying (as you already struggle comprehand something such simple) you keep talking what could have been if and present excuses for why things truned as they turned and im mearly pointing what actually happened.
Me:Grey warden order didn't contribute to defeating fifth blight.
You:But Loghain prevented them from doing so thus you are wrong because they could have help if not loghain.
Me:So? Your argument still doesn't change fact they didn't contribute thus im 100 % correct in my statement and your argument what could have been serves no point.
They didn't die to save him , their death was futile and achieved nothing and as i said individual warden that is acting on their own doesn't reflects organisation.Also ,from what i recall Tegan wasn't there dispute about morality of Sophia actions nor even was talking about morality of her actions ,from what i recall all Tegan said on that topic is that they grey wardens invaded ferelden under pretext of restoring order 200 years ago to be exact well what was in fact they did ,so stop making stuff up.So no, 2 wardens achieving something while doing things on their own without approval and support from order won't make it order achievements because you say so and present excuse as for why they didn't contribute to achievements of said 2 grey wardens....
And no sorry but you are one who is using insane logic to "repel" my arguments like using differences between morality of the organisations that i didn't even compare to deny difference between actions of the individual and whole organisation when point applies to every organisation regardless of its morality and i even used example of the very oragnisation you were screaming how different it is when compared to my another example and i proved my point applies to said organisation as well despite your protest "but they are different so your point is wrong". As well your poor attempts to repel mere fact that grey warden order didn't contribute with excuses "but loghain" when your argument doesn't invalidate my statement at all only points reason behind my statement.
Both cases were due awful decisions taken by a Warden Commander among many, they were not the top leaders of the Wardens, unless you have any proof of Weishaupt's Wardens support, the further you will go on this is what the Fereldan Grey Wardens did and what the Orlesian Grey Wardens did, you can't say it's the whole order because to be categorized as such would require a Weishaupt's leader involvement, you can see that as a technicality if you want, but on the laws of Thedas, it has actually worked to whitewash worse matters than these.
Sorry , but it still doesn't change fact that order did it as an collective and organisation opposing to actions of the individual. Weishaupt branch doesn't need to be involved, entire branch of grey wardens and large portion of grey warden order is enough to deem it efforts of the organisation even if another branch of the organisation wasn't involved.
*reads through TKS's posts*
https://youtu.be/DnHHDzQ4Axw?t=95
Sorry , dragon but i don't take you seriously i still remember your claims about me "everything you say is inconsistent" ,but when i asked you to provide any specific example you were able only to repeat yourself unable to provide any example.Well, if you want to be credible provide support to your argument instead using child play "you are stuped" .
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