715 réponses à ce sujet

[Nixou]

Playing as Inquisitor is to take the role of a warlord with a private militia.

 

 

One thing that made me very uncomfortable with Inquisition was the fact that an organization Named "The Inquisition" was presented as such a positive force during the main game. The real Inquisition(s) earned a well deserved reputation as the embodiment of everything wrong with mixing religious authorities with secular power and as a result, the main game gave me a displeasant "Fantasy Gone with the Wind" vibe.

At least Trespasser's conclude the story with "The Inquisition was disbanded/neutered before it could become as corrupt and harmful as it's real life counterparts"

 

 

What makes King Alistair and the Hero of Ferelden different is that they fought during an actual Blight, which is Grey Warden business

 

 

And less we forget Loghain was in utter denial about the Blight until the surviving Wardens -including Marric's second son-, Rowan's brother(s) and his own daughter were staring him down in the throne room. There he acknowledged the reality of the Blight, but by then it was little more than a last ditch effort to stop the nobility from turning against him for good.

And I'm pretty sure there's a "In case of Blights, Get Rid of Blight deniers" clause in the Wardens' rulebook

[GoldenGail3]

One thing that made me very uncomfortable with Inquisition was the fact that an organization Named "The Inquisition" was presented as such a positive force during the main game. The real Inquisition(s) earned a well deserved reputation as the embodiment of everything wrong with mixing religious authorities with secular power and as a result, the main game gave me a displeasant "Fantasy Gone with the Wind" vibe.
At least Trespasser's conclude the story with "The Inquisition was disbanded/neutered before it could become as corrupt and harmful as it's real life counterparts"
 
 

 
And less we forget Loghain was in utter denial about the Blight until the surviving Wardens -including Marric's second son-, Rowan's brother(s) and his own daughter were staring him down in the throne room. There he acknowledged the reality of the Blight, but by then it was little more than a last ditch effort to stop the nobility from turning against him for good.
And I'm pretty sure there's a "In case of Blights, Get Rid of Blight deniers" clause in the Wardens' rulebook

Why do you think the HOF should die? Why? (Look at signature and wonders).

[Andreas Amell]

Not rly , just because you like grey warden's and he dears to say bad word about grey wardens and in fact something harmful to ferleden they did in the past doesn't mean his argument is invalid.

 

Cleary not considering Ferelden didn't want inquistion forces on its lands ,and of course then again you once again ignore facts i said that inquisition proved they didn't care about country laws so what it point with establishing laws if someone doesn't care about them...

 

It makes a lot of sense, avoiding fact you once again try make it as it was sole reason, foreign force seizing your lands without your consent pretty much in any case would be seen as hostile act and invasion by said country, hell let alone refusing to remove your military from territory of the country would have similar effect.Also i see once again i see you go with you argument "but he shouldn't wait 2 years" that i have repealed more than once , the only reason it took 2 years was because divine was delaying it as long she could.

And once again angry because he brought up uncomfortable fact about actions of grey wardens?

 

Not rly , it only shows that inquisition was nothing more but independent huge corrupted force that had zero respect for another country rules and authorities while considering themselves above them. Pretty much fact they seized control over not their lands as well they concealed danger from authorities instead informing them about threat should be enough to prove that. Because chantry doesn't threatens to said countries , it has no army nor another forces that would be threat for the country aside from that chantry doesn't seize control over lands nor takes ****** on authorities and their rules.While another part is ridiculous, why would Orlesian and Ferelden authorities would want to disband themselves?

 

I have already pointed what that would be solve almost nothing , simple fact that divine is friends with inquisitor and former member of the inquisition (hell just look at fact that she was delaying council in favor of inquisition as long she could to get bigger picture) and way inquisition acted would make it pointless solution, avoiding fact once again there was no point in maintaining Inquistion that had no real goal, so i don't see why Teagan would want inquisition to be around just because despite they are threat.

 

 

 

 

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Right. The fact that the Inquisition still occupies land in Ferelden already proves they are a threat to their sovereignty. With peace and order finally restored after two years there is no reason they have to exist in their eyes. 

[Andreas Amell]

 

One thing that made me very uncomfortable with Inquisition was the fact that an organization Named "The Inquisition" was presented as such a positive force during the main game. The real Inquisition(s) earned a well deserved reputation as the embodiment of everything wrong with mixing religious authorities with secular power and as a result, the main game gave me a displeasant "Fantasy Gone with the Wind" vibe.

At least Trespasser's conclude the story with "The Inquisition was disbanded/neutered before it could become as corrupt and harmful as it's real life counterparts"

 

Yes, The irony wasn't lost to me either. I don't know if I'd choose to disband at the end, but knowing the threat that Solas presents, I think it would take something else besides a large army of the faithful. That's just asking for a purge of all elves. I don't want to be responsible for that. 

[Nixou]

Why do you think the HOF should die? Why? (Look at signature and wonders). 

 

 

Because:

 

1. Bioware's writers & devs drove themselves in a corner by making the Warden too successful and formidable, so now they go out of their way to remove this character from the setting because his/her presence would screw up the narrative. (Put the HoF in Ferelden during Inquisition, and a lot of events, from Clarel sizing complete control over the southern Grey Wardens to Corypheus successfully slipping into the Temple of Sacred Ashes unnoticed stop making sense).
2. At the same time, while the Warden's story is over, the writers, despite being openly unenthusiastic about bringing back Origins' protagonist into the spotlight, keep making new stories involving his/her legacy, and predictably, people seeing keep asking for the Warden to reappear onscreen.
3. Keeping the character offscreen won't be a problem for a while since the next game will probably focus on Tevinter and the Qunari, while the Taint, Blight and Grey Wardens in the background for a while, but eventually the writers will run out of credible excuses to keep him/her away from the spotlight.

 

Therefore, the best way to deal with the character once and for all is to give them a big, unambiguous plotline death.

[In Exile]

Because:

• Bioware's writers & devs drove themselves in a corner by making the Warden too successful and formidable, so now they go out of their way to remove this character from the setting because his/her presence would screw up the narrative. (Put the HoF in Ferelden during Inquisition, and a lot of events, from Clarel sizing complete control over the southern Grey Wardens to Corypheus successfully slipping into the Temple of Sacred Ashes unnoticed stop making sense).
• At the same time, while the Warden's story is over, the writers, despite being openly unenthusiastic about bringing back Origins' protagonist into the spotlight, keep making new stories involving his/her legacy, and predictably, people seeing keep asking for the Warden to reappear onscreen.
• Keeping the character offscreen won't be a problem for a while since the next game will probably focus on Tevinter and the Qunari, while the Taint, Blight and Grey Wardens in the background for a while, but eventually the writers will run out of credible excuses to keep him/her away from the spotlight.

Therefore, the best way to deal with the character once and for all is to give them a big, unambiguous plotline death.

I don't know what world you're living in, but in DAO the Warden's only claim to success is being SUPER good at killing. It's a total plot contrivance that the Warden's awesomeness at killing then leads to a positive result.

If the HOF was in Thedas, the either the HOF gets worn like a meatsuit by Corypheus or gets mind controlled by the taint just by being nearby him, as we see happen to Janeka and other Wardens.

The writers are forced to invent silly reasons to keep the Warden off screen because of fans beliefs in this characters borderline divinity. An off screen death would cause a riot, and saying nothing would lead to "my HOF would be in Ferelden and TOTALLY spot the plot to DAI." Which is what you say.

[Nixou]

The writers are forced to invent silly reasons to keep the Warden off screen because of fans beliefs in this characters borderline divinity

 

 

Oh but I agree with you:

Indeed the

 

If the HOF was in Thedas, the either the HOF gets worn like a meatsuit by Corypheus or gets mind controlled by the taint just by being nearby him, as we see happen to Janeka and other Wardens. 

 

 

would have made for a very interesting twist: Justinia names the Warden Inquisitor, Corypheus attacks the Conclave, Warden defeat Corypheus only to be possessed: great gut punch and great way to establish the villain's threat, plus we'd finally get the plotline death I'm asking for, so you wouldn't get any complain from me if that had been Inquisition's introduction  

 

The problem is not that a story involving both the Warden and the funding of the Inquisition can't be written: it's that the story of Inquisition as it exists cannot work with the Warden in it. It begins with Corypheus successfully infiltrating the conclave and remaining unknown to the protagonist for the entirety of the first act. This core aspect of the early game's tale: that Corypheus remained undetected until the Divine was captured and ready to be sacrificed wouldn't work if the Darkspawn-detecting Warden had been at the Divine's side and the whole story would topple like a badly designed apartment complex

[Cyberstrike nTo]

It makes no sense to demand the Inquisition's disbandment because they occupied an abandoned fort which was previously occupied by criminals. In that context, the Inquisition did Ferelden a huge favor and again, if they want the fort back then they shouldn't wait 2 years to bring up the subject. It's obvious that the real reason that Teagan wants to disband the Inquisition is to keep Orlais from getting it, but don't badmouth both the Inquisition and the Grey Wardens to make your point. That's putting up a cheaply dishonest front and the Bannhammer of Origins wasn't that type of individual and anyone whose played Origins would know that. Which gives more credit to the idea that Teagan was shoe-horned into the DLC just for the sake of either having a placeholder or cheap shock value.

 

 

It took Ferelden 7 years to sort out the dead from Ostagar. I think that their asking for their fort back in 2 years is a slight improvement. 

[berelinde]

I don't hate Teagan now, and I never did. I mean, I was never infatuated with him or anything, but I can't blame him for doing his job. He is the Fereldan ambassador. He is in Orlais to protect Ferelden's interests. He isn't trying to advance his own agenda or punish the Inquisition or anything. In fact, if you do In Hushed Whispers, he's still quite grateful to the Inquisition on a personal level. But he is obligated to protect the interests of the Fereldan Crown, and that's what he's going to do, regardless of his personal feelings on the subject.

[GoldenGail3]

Because:
 

• Bioware's writers & devs drove themselves in a corner by making the Warden too successful and formidable, so now they go out of their way to remove this character from the setting because his/her presence would screw up the narrative. (Put the HoF in Ferelden during Inquisition, and a lot of events, from Clarel sizing complete control over the southern Grey Wardens to Corypheus successfully slipping into the Temple of Sacred Ashes unnoticed stop making sense).
• At the same time, while the Warden's story is over, the writers, despite being openly unenthusiastic about bringing back Origins' protagonist into the spotlight, keep making new stories involving his/her legacy, and predictably, people seeing keep asking for the Warden to reappear onscreen.
• Keeping the character offscreen won't be a problem for a while since the next game will probably focus on Tevinter and the Qunari, while the Taint, Blight and Grey Wardens in the background for a while, but eventually the writers will run out of credible excuses to keep him/her away from the spotlight.

 
Therefore, the best way to deal with the character once and for all is to give them a big, unambiguous plotline death.

I would kill someone if they killed my Queen HOF. I would be done with the DA story line if they did that, I'd be so done.

[ThePhoenixKing]

And.... The Hero and Alistair are both Wardens, acting on the Warden treaties specifically drafted by the Wardens in the event of a Blight, which requires a Warden to finish.

 

See where I'm going with this?

 

"But... they're not True Scotsmen-- I mean, Wardens!"

 

Yeah, denying the HoF's status as a Warden is pretty much Intellectual Dishonesty 101.

 

THIS

 

During that scene, I wanted to recruit CAUTHRIEN. You've seen how much of a fighter she was AND you know she can be reasonable and given that you spare Loghain's life, she would've been the frist to offer herself as a potential Warden....

 

I'm not adverse yo keeping Loghain alive but making him a warden? WHY?

 

Cauthrien of the Grey has a nice ring to it, don't you think? And I could definitely see her trying to find some way to atone for standing by Loghain during his tyranny. Her joining the Wardens doesn't sound too far-fetched, does it?

 

Considering that a Blight was underway and the sole purpose of the Warden's continued existence is to combat future Blights, I think it's safe to say that Alistair and the Hero were working with the Wardens' interests in mind.

 

You also act like Alistair and the Hero were totally alone. There was also Duncan before his death and Riordan, plus the Orlesian Wardens whom Loghain denied entry into Ferelden. I like to think that maybe Alistair's and the Hero's actions aren't so out of place when all of these other people are either actively or attempting to do them too.

 

Also, good job comparing the Empire, an organization that is unambiguously lawful "evil" as a whole with little to no redeeming qualities whatsoever, to the Wardens, who have been depicted as chaotic neutral at their lowest showings.

 

Very well said.

 

Just an advice, Shadow, TKS will disregard any argument that is not his own and seemingly loves to have the last word, so, it's up to you end the wall post here.

 

Yeah, you might as well be arguing with a brick wall. Just save yourself the hassle and don't bother.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand, what bothers me the most about Teagan's condemnation of the Wardens is not so much the nature of that condemnation, or even that it's totally out of character for Teagan to demonize the people who saved his ass all those years ago, but instead that it's more a microcosm of the slipshod and arbitrary nature of Bioware's characterization these days. Too often, how a character is written doesn't feel like it's being driven by their actual personality/values/backstory/ideals/etc, but by what's most convenient to the demands of the narrative. Teagan's using the Wardens as a bludgeon against the Inquisition because the plot says so, not because it makes any sense in the context of the setting or of who he is.

 

It's really no different than having Anders go from a self-interested, snarky ladies' man in Awakening to an angst-ridden terrorist jerk in DAII in order to facilitate the conflict there, or Fiona going from a mage rights firebrand who'd fight tooth and nail for her people's freedom to an idiot meekly shackling herself to Tevinter's wagon train; the plot demands a character act this way, and so that's the way they must act. Bioware's basically trying to hammer round pegs into square holes, how it looks, if it's effective or if it makes any sense be damned, and that's pretty much the opposite of effective characterization. It certainly doesn't help the characters feel any more engaging: why get attached to someone who's just going to turn evil/stupid/corrupt the moment the designers write themselves into a corner?

[TheKomandorShepard]

"But... they're not True Scotsmen-- I mean, Wardens!"

 

Yeah, denying the HoF's status as a Warden is pretty much Intellectual Dishonesty 101.

 

Very well said.

 

Yeah, you might as well be arguing with a brick wall. Just save yourself the hassle and don't bother.

 

Not rly , considering that once again HoF actions had nothing to do with grey warden order .Order wasn't involved in HoF actions in any way and HoF actions were carried and planned by HoF so thus order didn't do jack to help Tegan or Ferelden only HoF did.   

 

If you have good arguments no , sadly you don't have ones.You are utterly unable to prove that grey warden order was involved with what HoF did and i can prove it wasn't thus pretty much no much up to debate . 

[GoldenGail3]

Not rly , considering that once again HoF actions had nothing to do with grey warden order .Order wasn't involved in HoF actions in any way and HoF actions were carried and planned by HoF so thus order didn't do jack to help Tegan or Ferelden only HoF did.   
 
If you have good arguments no , sadly you don't have ones.You are utterly unable to prove that grey warden order was involved with what HoF did and i can prove it wasn't thus pretty much no much up to debate .

What about the fact that the Warden had ancient warden treaties?

[TheKomandorShepard]

What about the fact that the Warden had ancient warden treaties?

Eee, so if i will use police badge without their knowledge to achieve something and police won't do jack does that mean police contributed to what i did?

 

Hof used treaties on his/her own without any support and approval from order.

[Melbella]

Eee, so if i will use police badge without their knowledge to achieve something and police won't do jack does that mean police contributed to what i did?
 
Hof used treaties on his/her own without any support and approval from order.

I'm going to regret wading in here, I think, but....

 

Warden-Commander Duncan told them to get the treaties. He was obviously intending to use them himself but got killed instead. Are you going to argue Duncan wasn't really a Warden acting on behalf of the Order either?

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm going to regret wading in here, I think, but....

 

Warden-Commander Duncan told them to get the treaties. He was obviously intending to use them himself but got killed instead. Are you going to argue Duncan wasn't really a Warden acting on behalf of the Order either?

LoL, Duncan said them to bring him treaties, not to go on self-appointed mission to stop blight.If you can't see difference between two i can't help you. Order in fact didn't liked what HoF did during blight so nope.     

[GoldenGail3]

LoL, Duncan said them to bring him treaties, not to go on self-appointed mission to stop blight.If you can't see difference between two i can't help you. Order in fact didn't liked what HoF did during blight so nope.

I think they didn't like what the HOF did during Awakening, rather then slaying the Archdemon. Becuase HOF became a bit of a threat to the leaders of Wesspauit during there time as Warden Commnader.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I think they didn't like what the HOF did during Awakening, rather then slaying the Archdemon. Becuase HOF became a bit of a threat to the leaders of Wesspauit during there time as Warden Commnader.

Not rly, HoF/Warden Commander did in daa nothing more than what pretty much was expected from him/her when given WC position (unless you spared architect).Also i wasn't talking about slaying Archdemon only the whole HoF mission, slaying Archdemon and becoming national hero is pretty much only reason why HoF wasn't punished by order.  

[GoldenGail3]

Not rly, HoF/Warden Commander did in daa nothing more than what pretty much was expected from him/her when given WC position (unless you spared architect).Also i wasn't talking about slaying Archdemon only the whole HoF mission, slaying Archdemon and becoming national hero is pretty much only reason why HoF wasn't punished by order.

Wow, I think the HOF would be dead if they didn't kill the Archdemon.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wow, I think the HOF would be dead if they didn't kill the Archdemon.

Well, being national hero has it advantages if you are mage you are above circle rules and wardens can't touch you even if you decide to go your own way.

[GoldenGail3]

Well, being national hero has it advantages if you are mage you are above circle rules and wardens can't touch you even if you decide to go your own way.

An Apostate? The HOF isn't technically an apostate thought, they left the circle legally (being conscripted by Duncan, a Warden commander). The Wardens don't touch you becuase I image their afraid of you (there has been no GW to have lived to tell the tail after killing an Archdemon, and your probaly frighten them how powerful you are).

[TheKomandorShepard]

An Apostate? The HOF isn't technically an apostate thought, they left the circle legally (being conscripted by Duncan, a Warden commander). The Wardens don't touch you becuase I image their afraid of you (there has been no GW to have lived to tell the tail after killing an Archdemon, and your probaly frighten them how powerful you are).

Well, if you leave Wardens you are apostate (well technically every mage outside circle is one, but in those case you won't be hunted) but i was more referring to Hawke and Wilhelm that got away fom living in circle thanks to hero card.I think reasons were rather political, if they did something to HoF they would commit suicide in ferelden. 

[GoldenGail3]

Well, if you leave Wardens you are apostate (well technically every mage outside circle is one, but in those case you won't be hunted) but i was more referring to Hawke and Wilhelm that got away fom living in circle thanks to hero card.I think reasons were rather political, if they did something to HoF they would commit suicide in ferelden.

Why would the HOF committ suicide? Why? That's absurd!

[TheKomandorShepard]

Why would the HOF committ suicide? Why? That's absurd!

Where i said Hof would commit suicide? What i said is that wardens would commit suicide in ferelden if they did something to national hero.

[GoldenGail3]

Where i said Hof would commit suicide? What i said is that wardens would commit suicide in ferelden if they did something to national hero.

No... I don't think so. I think the HOF would leave the Warden Commander post to Nathienal, he seems trustworthy enough.