715 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

No... I don't think so. I think the HOF would leave the Warden Commander post to Nathienal, he seems trustworthy enough.

Eee, what i meant was that an order would suffer serious consequences for inflicting harm on national hero (HoF) .

[LukaCrosszeria]

Not really.  You spend most of the DLC proving him right.
 

Spoiler

The Inquisition is occupying a significant Ferelden fortification without cause or recompense long past the expiration of the crisis.
Then you neglect to inform the proper authorities/your so-called allies about the start of a Qunari invasion of the South, apparently under the delusion that 'The Inquisition knows best'.
Then, without permission or explanation you use Inquisition forces to all but declare martial law at the Winter Palace, violating yet another country's sovereignty.
Everyone else finally learns about the Qunari plot once you decide you can't keep it a secret anymore and realize it's a continent-wide thing you really should have told people about earlier.
Oh, and just the icing on the cake, you find out your organization is riddled with spies from both the Qunari and Solas.

 
I missed his comment about the Wardens, unless you mean the one where he's talking about them being exiled in the past.  Which isn't hating on the current Wardens so much as citing similar historical examples and repercussions, unless I'm misremembering his comment.

Are you not happy with how the Inquisition was porrtrayed in Trespasser? Because I wonder what would drive someone to make the Inquisition sound like a corrupt oppressive organisation, using only disparaging terms to describe their actions and failing to include the historical, social and politicial context that sheds quite a different light on the matter. I usually don't post here but this annoyed me so there.
 
No, you don't spend most of the DLC proving him right. And let's say for argument's sake that Teagan was right about certain things, then there's still a way to handle it politely.
 

Teagan was such a douchebag in Trespasser - the Inquisition freed Redcliffe from the Venatori agents after he was basically kicked from his own castle and restored order in the Hinterlands, he should have been more grateful for that at least. But I guess that's politics for you.

 

Spoiler

Teagan doesn't give the Inquisition the benefit of the doubt at all, from the onset he's set against it, he's convinced his fears are justified and his aggressive, impolite dialogue reflects that. Remember during her recruitment Vivienne said "issuing challenges and hurling insults like some Fereldan dog lord." I thought that was unfair, until Teagan opened his mouth. I was always proud of my Warden being Fereldan, but the longer I listened to Teagen, the more ashamed I felt.
 
"The Inquisition is occupying a significant Ferelden fortification without cause or recompense long past the expiration of the crisis."

This is true, the Inquisition had no more cause to occupy it, they should have left. Let's not forget they didn't occupy it to start an invasion of Ferelden though, they established an Inquisition presence to keep people safe. Even though they stayed whten they shouldn't have, that purpose hadn't changed.
 
"Then you neglect to inform the proper authorities/your so-called allies about the start of a Qunari invasion of the South, apparently under the delusion that 'The Inquisition knows best'"

Josephine dedicated herself to crafting careful alliances and maintaining them to uphold the Inquisition's reputation. They are proper allies who were treated with respect, there's nothing so-called about it. As for informing the proper authorities, the nobility can't decide anything on a scale that effects the entire south of Thedas. That's up to Celene or Gaspard and Alistair and/or Anora and they weren't there. If anything, the Divine is the authority everyone would listen to and she was in the loop the whole time.
Speaking of a qunari invasion, you don't just find one dead qunari and go, ooh invasion, must tell everyone! Then the qunari infiltrators (and Solas' forces) would have been alerted. The qunari would have gone into hidiing to try again later, or worse might have detonated their stuff then and there. The Inquisition didn't "neglect" to inform anyone, they chose not to because doing so would have put everyone in danger, caused a panic. That's not disrespecting them as allies. Caution doesn't equal arrogance. You remember how Bull told the Inquisitor that the Ben-Hassrath go through years of training to hide facial expressions? Well the nobility doesn't. With so many qunari spies there, the game would have been up, no matter how well people tried to hide that they knew.

As for being deluded that 'The Inquisition knows best', the Inquisition has shown that it knows what it's doing, by saving the world and getting this far. It can boast the Left and Right Hand of the Divine as its key members as well as a seasoned military commander, not to mention the Inquisitor. I dare you to find people who know better. But that's not even the point, like I said earlier they kept silent about it to keep a panic from spreading and to keep from tipping off the qunari. It's not about being so arrogant to think you know best, it's about protecting people. What do you think Teagan or Cyril could have done? Say okay, do what you're going to do anyway because we cannot deal with a qunari invasion this instant, but you can. You could say the point is that they should have asked first, but then we're back to having to keep it quiet to stop a massacre.

"Then, without permission or explanation you use Inquisition forces to all but declare martial law at the Winter Palace, violating yet another country's sovereignty."
 
"Martial law is the imposition of the highest-ranking military officer as the military governor or as the head of the government, thus removing all power from the previous executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government. It is usually imposed temporarily when the government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively" (wiki)
The authorities failing to function effectively is exactly what brought the Inquisition into being in the first place. It is a highly successful organisation formed exactly to deal with this sort of stuff. Nobody was better qualified to deal with what happened. The soldiers who served as palace guards or guards for the nobility were not hampered in their duties. The Inquisition placed additional guards to catch qunari operatives to keep them from blowing up the palace. As for arresting the Orlesian servant who turned out to be a Qunari spy, that did seem like the Inquisitor exercising authority s/he didn't have, but only because that guard thought the servant was being arrested for an entirely different reason. Telling him the real reason would have endangered everyone.

As for doing things without permission or explanation, that wasn't given by or to the nobility, but the Divine was in the loop, the head of the entire chantry whom nobility and rulers alike obey. She knows full well what's at stake, and is savvy enough to know what is acceptable and what is not. Her first duty is to the people, not the Inquisition. She'd have stopped them if she thought they were crossing the line. Also, recall what Josephine told the Inquisitor when sitting in judgement for the first time, "The Inquisition's sovereignty is derived from the allies who validate it. You are both in power, and bound." You call it violating another country's sovereignty, but they already validated the Inquisition's sovereignty because the Inquisition's acted in their best interests.
 
"Everyone else finally learns about the Qunari plot once you decide you can't keep it a secret anymore and realize it's a continent-wide thing you really should have told people about earlier."
Once again, referring you to earlier, you don't start a panic and alert the enemy you know of their plans. Everyone was told once the threat was dealt with. This illustrates perfectly why Orlais and Ferelden fear the Inquisition, It's too competent and too powerful, they want to bring it under control or disband it, but really they don't have the means to. That choice falls to the Inquisition itself.

"Oh, and just the icing on the cake, you find out your organization is riddled with spies from both the Qunari and Solas."
 
The icing on the cake of atrocious actions, is that it? The cake is a lie   Note this dialogue between Cassandra and Solas.
 
Cassandra: I noticed, Solas, that you did not seem surprised by what I uncovered about the Seekers.
Solas: No? They are an organisation.
Cassandra: You think organisations to be inherently corrupt?
Solas: Given enough time, yes. To survive, an organisation must devote resources to maintaining itself. Those resources inevitably accumulate until the original purpose, however pure, is all but lost.
Cassandra: You make the Seekers sound like a mindless beast.
Solas: A beast, no matter how mindless, will die and give way to a successor. An organisation is eternal. There are always corrupt men who hoard power for their own gain and there are always honorable men who hoard power to fight them.
 
Every organisation suffers from it, it doesn't detract from the Inquisition's value and it doesn't mean they're the corrupt oppressors you make them out to be. As Solas said, "there are always honorable men who hoard power to fight them". That is what the Inquisition is about. They will fight this corruption. If organisations had to disband because of corruption, then your "proper authorities" shouldn't exist either.

 
Well I've typed for a long long time. That doesn't happen unless someone really pushes my buttons. Don't talk of the Inquisition that way. I don't like it 

[In Exile]

What about the fact that the Warden had ancient warden treaties?

The fact anyone cared about those is pretty silly. Apart from the dwarves. Their culture is the only one that makes sense re: respecting them. Think of it this way: you show up with a treaty from around 900 AD obliging "Charlemagne's heirs" to help you and demand entry to speak with the French President. This is less of a "valid way to talk to the government" and more "disturbed person arrested outside of gates to government building".

Just like Blackwall, the HOF can't really prove they're a GW. Having the treaties doesn't prove anything - you could (as you literally did) just have found them in the middle of a forest.

[In Exile]

LoL, Duncan said them to bring him treaties, not to go on self-appointed mission to stop blight.If you can't see difference between two i can't help you. Order in fact didn't liked what HoF did during blight so nope.

To add to that, DG confirmed that if Duncan survived Ostagar he would have abandoned Ferelden. So there's that too.

[SmilesJA]

I don't know, Teagan's kind of got a point on the possibility of the Inquisition going on unchecked, even if he is a jerk.

[GoldenGail3]

The fact anyone cared about those is pretty silly. Apart from the dwarves. Their culture is the only one that makes sense re: respecting them. Think of it this way: you show up with a treaty from around 900 AD obliging "Charlemagne's heirs" to help you and demand entry to speak with the French President. This is less of a "valid way to talk to the government" and more "disturbed person arrested outside of gates to government building".
Just like Blackwall, the HOF can't really prove they're a GW. Having the treaties doesn't prove anything - you could (as you literally did) just have found them in the middle of a forest.

Becuase those treaties gave you to right to concrispt them. Yep, that's right. With those treaties, you can constrict them whenever they like it or not. And who just claims their GW's? In game you can literally say 'Who claims to be GW's' to the Dalish lady when you first enter their encampment.

[In Exile]

Becuase those treaties gave you to right to concrispt them. Yep, that's right. With those treaties, you can constrict them whenever they like it or not. And who just claims their GW's? In game you can literally say 'Who claims to be GW's' to the Dalish lady when you first enter their encampment.

Well, not exactly. The treaties say you can conscript them. But they don't have to care. Much like how IRL countries sign and totally ignore treaties all the time. Remember, even Blackwall had GW treaties.

[ShadowLordXII]

Well, not exactly. The treaties say you can conscript them. But they don't have to care. Much like how IRL countries sign and totally ignore treaties all the time. Remember, even Blackwall had GW treaties.

 

But the various factions do in fact honor them in the 5th Blight, do they not? After their various internal issues are sorted out of course. Though you could argue that this has more to do with the pragmatic and sensible reasoning that the Blight is at their doorsteps and aiding the Grey Wardens (historically proven darkspawn killers) is their best chance of survival.

 

I don't know, Teagan's kind of got a point on the possibility of the Inquisition going on unchecked, even if he is a jerk.

 

He just fails to make that point legitimate. When debating subjects, it's not just important to "have a point", you also have to be able to sell and back that point with evidence and logic which builds up your argument. It also requires a good degree of diplomacy and tact to come across effectively and Teagan's brash and out of character persona simply doesn't cut it.

 

The argument is sound in itself, but Teagan's arguments and methods shoot him in the foot. Also considering that there isn't much emphasis put on the Exalted Council debates, there isn't even much room to effectively try to counter-argue him or point out the holes in his standpoint. (Holes which have already been pointed out multiple times across the forums and still stand despite "defenders" attempt to say otherwise)

 

Which leaves the impression that the game is pigeon-holing the Inquisitor into being in the wrong with Teagan being right even when that's not necessarily true nor does hindsight concerning the elven and qunari spies validate his bs.

 

In further thought, Teagan's out-of-character jerk mode is simply another symptom of the overall lackluster Exalted Council arc of Trespasser and might as well be a bland placeholder since it serves the same purpose: Contrive the narrative to where the Inquisition has to downsize or disband to protect the Status Quo. Even though the Narrative of Thedas is already going into a new main area Northern Ferelden (specifically Tevinter and possibly the surrounding countries), so...this is pretty much pointless in itself.

 

But I digress.

[The Hierophant]

I don't know, Teagan's kind of got a point on the possibility of the Inquisition going on unchecked, even if he is a jerk.

It was only a matter of time before the people in power grew tired of Leliana's small army of voyeurists, and hatchet men shitting in their backyards.

 

And before anyone brings up Leliana being the Divine instead of the Inquisition's spymaster, this is Leliana we're talking about. She could do anything.

[TheKomandorShepard]

But the various factions do in fact honor them in the 5th Blight, do they not? After their various internal issues are sorted out of course. Though you could argue that this has more to do with the pragmatic and sensible reasoning that the Blight is at their doorsteps and aiding the Grey Wardens (historically proven darkspawn killers) is their best chance of survival.

 

Except they didn't every single faction tells you "sorry, but nope we have our own problems" and it turns into making favours instead using threaties what in the end made treaties useless outside it allowed enter orzammar.

[Lavellan-San]

One thing is for sure, he did not age gracefully.

[GoldenGail3]

One thing is for sure, he did not age gracefully.

And his hat is ugly. I wonder if Teagan is bald or something, becuase his hat is too darn ugly. I wish that Bioware would fire the guy that made their virtual hats, becuase they suck at their job.

[SmilesJA]

But the various factions do in fact honor them in the 5th Blight, do they not? After their various internal issues are sorted out of course. Though you could argue that this has more to do with the pragmatic and sensible reasoning that the Blight is at their doorsteps and aiding the Grey Wardens (historically proven darkspawn killers) is their best chance of survival.

 

 

He just fails to make that point legitimate. When debating subjects, it's not just important to "have a point", you also have to be able to sell and back that point with evidence and logic which builds up your argument. It also requires a good degree of diplomacy and tact to come across effectively and Teagan's brash and out of character persona simply doesn't cut it.

 

The argument is sound in itself, but Teagan's arguments and methods shoot him in the foot. Also considering that there isn't much emphasis put on the Exalted Council debates, there isn't even much room to effectively try to counter-argue him or point out the holes in his standpoint. (Holes which have already been pointed out multiple times across the forums and still stand despite "defenders" attempt to say otherwise)

 

Which leaves the impression that the game is pigeon-holing the Inquisitor into being in the wrong with Teagan being right even when that's not necessarily true nor does hindsight concerning the elven and qunari spies validate his bs.

 

In further thought, Teagan's out-of-character jerk mode is simply another symptom of the overall lackluster Exalted Council arc of Trespasser and might as well be a bland placeholder since it serves the same purpose: Contrive the narrative to where the Inquisition has to downsize or disband to protect the Status Quo. Even though the Narrative of Thedas is already going into a new main area Northern Ferelden (specifically Tevinter and possibly the surrounding countries), so...this is pretty much pointless in itself.

 

But I digress.

 

Having the Inquisition still occupy Ferelden with those towers you built even after Corypheus is defeated is not a point or a concern? Considering how Fedeldan was once occupied by Orlais I can see his point in his fears of an Inquisition takeover.

[dragonflight288]

Having the Inquisition still occupy Ferelden with those towers you built even after Corypheus is defeated is not a point or a concern? Considering how Fedeldan was once occupied by Orlais I can see his point in his fears of an Inquisition takeover.

 

Seeing his point and agreeing with him or agreeing with his approach are separate things. 

[Apo]

I don't know if this was told in this topic (I read most of the post but stopped at page 10 or 11) but when you decide to go to Redcliffe castle to have the help of the mages and your advisors begin to argue about how is it a good or bad idea, Josephine say a thing about "an orlesian army storming a fereldan castle" (something like that), so the Inquisition from the beginning is viewed as an orlesian organisation, plus the former ruler of Haven is an orlesian noble.

 

I didn't played Trespasser yet, but reading the comments about Teagan reaction and remembering this line of dialogue from Josy makes me think that from a fereldan point of view, the Inquisition is an orlesian organization, and the fact that the orlesians want to make it an arm of their army is an additional proof of that imo.

[In Exile]

But the various factions do in fact honor them in the 5th Blight, do they not? After their various internal issues are sorted out of course. Though you could argue that this has more to do with the pragmatic and sensible reasoning that the Blight is at their doorsteps and aiding the Grey Wardens (historically proven darkspawn killers) is their best chance of survival.

 

Only the dwarves do, because it's on that basis that they send you troops. The other ones involve a specific quid-pro-quo for support, and in two cases, you can get the side that doesn't have a treaty (i.e., werewolves and templars). One of the treaties doesn't even make sense (the one with the Circle). 

 

While I'd be inclined to agree with you on the pragmatism point, the thing is no one even knows it's a blight. You're just a well-armed person with some old parchment paper that's really durable. 

[In Exile]

He just fails to make that point legitimate. When debating subjects, it's not just important to "have a point", you also have to be able to sell and back that point with evidence and logic which builds up your argument. It also requires a good degree of diplomacy and tact to come across effectively and Teagan's brash and out of character persona simply doesn't cut it.

 

But Teagan is completely right, and his argument is entirely factual. There isn't anything to massage there. The only counterpoint is predicated on the inherent benevolence of the Inquisitor and Inquisition. It's not as if the Inquisition isn't an extraterritorial military operation operating with impunity inside Ferelden which, among other things, has annexed its territory. 

[dragonflight288]

But Teagan is completely right, and his argument is entirely factual. There isn't anything to massage there. The only counterpoint is predicated on the inherent benevolence of the Inquisitor and Inquisition. It's not as if the Inquisition isn't an extraterritorial military operation operating with impunity inside Ferelden which, among other things, has annexed its territory. 

 

He is factually wrong about the history of the Wardens and the rebellion four hundred years prior, as we see in the Warden's Keep DLC in Origins. They may have been involved in the rebellion which resulted in the order getting exiled, it was only after Arl Wulff and Teyrn Cousland practically begged Sophia Dryden to join the fight against a tyrant, and they went to her because she was a legitimate heir to the throne and was passed over by the Landsmeet and made a Warden to get her out of the way. 

 

He makes a good point on the Inquisition's troops and whether or not they're needed, and we all know how much Ferelden takes pride in their independence from Orlais, but if he wants to make a solid argument, he needs to have his facts straight.

 

Using the Wardens in the Inquisition as evidence of Inquisition corruption or a sign they want to seize power and citing their exile 400 years prior falls flat on its face and makes no sense to those who know the true facts of the issue. 

[Nixou]

Using the Wardens in the Inquisition as evidence of Inquisition corruption or a sign they want to seize power and citing their exile 400 years prior falls flat on its face and makes no sense to those who know the true facts of the issue. 

 

 

But that's the thing: Teagan isn't debating with the few dozen people who know the true facts of the issue: he's posturing in front of an assembly of mostly Orlesian nobles because his job is to make sure Orlais knows Ferelden means business.

[In Exile]

He is factually wrong about the history of the Wardens and the rebellion four hundred years prior, as we see in the Warden's Keep DLC in Origins. They may have been involved in the rebellion which resulted in the order getting exiled, it was only after Arl Wulff and Teyrn Cousland practically begged Sophia Dryden to join the fight against a tyrant, and they went to her because she was a legitimate heir to the throne and was passed over by the Landsmeet and made a Warden to get her out of the way.

He makes a good point on the Inquisition's troops and whether or not they're needed, and we all know how much Ferelden takes pride in their independence from Orlais, but if he wants to make a solid argument, he needs to have his facts straight.

Using the Wardens in the Inquisition as evidence of Inquisition corruption or a sign they want to seize power and citing their exile 400 years prior falls flat on its face and makes no sense to those who know the true facts of the issue.

No, he isn't. He's absolutely right. The whole point of the oath of non-interference is to non-interference in exactly those times when your moral compass dictates that you should interfere.

Any rule that comes down to the individual's subjective moral discretion isn't a rule - it's a whim, and the entire system collapses like a house of cards. The whole point is that to the nobility, there is no difference between usurping power for tyrannical reasons and supposedly heroic ones.

Sophia Dryden plotted to usurp the Ferelden Crown. We may well think she had very good reasons to do it. But it's cold comfort for the nobility of Ferelden, particularly if the Inquisition decides that the Ferelden nobility no longer has the moral legitimacy to govern.

She wasn't a legitimate heir. She had no claim - that is the very essence of becoming a Warden, once again. Of course legal technicality and subjective perception are not the same - but Sophia was in law no different from any other GW, and had the same claim to the throne.

The Warden's - on the "true facts" - are exactly the sort of thing every noble should be terrified over. An army you have living inside your borders whose sole reason for not attack your lands and usurping your title is their moral evaluation of your rulership.

[Apo]

Except for the HoF, his party and the Drydens (which we don't know what happen to them since DA:O), nobody knows what really happened until we got there, and I don't think that what we saw was ever recorded after that.

 

So for most of the fereldans point of view, the wardens did actually attempted to overthrow the king and were exiled for this.

 

Edit : Levi Dryden and warden Cousland didn't know a shite about the events of Soldier's Keep despite the fact that their respective ancestors were involved in it.

Victory is written by the vanquishers

[Andres Hendrix]

Should have been an option to walk out like this.





"**** Thedas, **** the Chantry, **** the Divine et al, and last but not least, **** Teagan." lol

[RoseLawliet]

Should have been an option to walk out like this.


"**** Thedas, **** the Chantry, **** the Divine et al, and last but not least, **** Teagan." lol

 

Yes, yes, yes, no.

[WingsandRings]

DAO Teagan was all handsome and flirty and helpful. DAI Trespasser Teagan was a grumpy yelly old balding man with a stick up his ass. What the hell happened? It was kind of sad and shocking, really.

[Nixou]

DAO Teagan was all handsome and flirty and helpful. DAI Trespasser Teagan was a grumpy yelly old balding man with a stick up his ass. What the hell happened? It was kind of sad and shocking, really.

 

Fifteen years: that's what happened.