Neither the werewolves, the Lady of the Forest was planning the ambushes to make Zathrian remove the curse, you really think she would allow them to leave?
Except they never went after Zathrian until he came back to the forest , wheter she would allow them to leave or not is irrelevant as she would have little chances of succeeding as all her attacks failed.
Except they never went after Zathrian until he came back to the forest , wheter she would allow them to leave or not is irrelevant as she would have little chances of succeeding as all her attacks failed.
Not really a failure, the plan wasn't slaughter the whole clan, it was just infect members of the clan so Zathrian would be forced to remove the curse, so even if she couldn't track them neither Zathrian could heal his people without her, thus the clan would be even more weakened for a fight and a Dalish clan is not exactly an impressive force fight on its best.
They only infected few dalish that could be sacrificed for good of the clan, plus Zathrian clan is hardly only one clan to fight as he brings help from other clans.
So. That Teagan guy. I completely agree with him that an organization beholden to no one is a Bad Idea™, especially when it's staffed by zealots.
Well I see this way 
The Inquisitor says F... all and goes to explore the world. There is only a little problem called Fen-harel who wants to pull down the Veil . If that would happen in the years when Quizzy can still fight, all the people on Thedas would go cowing to his/her feet and ask for salvation . If would be an option, my Quizzy would say ... Buuurn! and goes to help Solas just for a sweet revenge
To be devil's advocate on this, let's remember the background to Teagan's position here. He is at this conference at the behest of his nephew, good King Alastair, who was a Grey Warden. If he hates them, and he has every reason not to, the dislike can only have been conveyed from some source. It would not have been the HoF since HoF saves his family and village. Arguably Teagan does not have much contact with HoF, and after the Wardens resolve the post Blight troubles he would have no reason to hate the Wardens. So this anger comes from one of two sources. First, he is angry because of the murder of the Divine by the Wardens (for the greater good of course in their myopic world view) or he is angry when he learns that the Wardens have doomed Alastair to ghoulhood. Further, with his baby making abilities severely hampered due to the taint. Eamon expressed concern about losing Calenhad's bloodline that Ferelden would scatter back to small warring kingdoms. Given the fact that Duncan conscripted Alastair, the only heir Cailan had,
I have thought about this a great deal, and frankly it appears to further my own dark view of the Wardens as a whole.. They are dedicated to a single purpose - stopping the Blight - to the exclusion of all else except preserving their dark secrets. Consider the facts as Bioware put them to us.
1. Joining ritual - it is either drink or die. If you live you get to turn into a ghoul and any life you may have really wanted is gone. So what happens to a Waren who loses a leg in battle? He can't fight after all.
2. Crestwood - The Wardens refuse to help due to Orders - ie. capture a renegade Warden Stroud. He might reveal secrets, which he does, and thwart the greater good.
3. Demon armies - We know of at least two times that the Wardens tried to summon demon armies.
4. Murder of the Divine to help summon demon armies along with hundreds of others.
5. Ostagar - Duncan goes along with the insane idea of charging the spawn rather than holding them with a shield wall.
6. The Wardens obviously do snot forbid blood magic. Whatever it takes right?.
So, do I hate Teagan for despising the Wardens? No. Do I hate him for wanting an occupation force out of Ferelden? No. Do I hate Bioware for creating such marvelous games - absolutely not. I do agree that Teagan's attitude is out of character, but he is doing it on the orders of Alastair. I do however dislike the notion that because the Wardens have saved the world five times they can skate on any crime they commit.
But most importantly we should have heard something about a DA4 by now. Perhaps it is time for an exalted march on Bioware?
My respects to all of you for your thoughtful comments.
5. Ostagar - Duncan goes along with the insane idea of charging the spawn rather than holding them with a shield wall.
Actually, the plan that was discussed at the war meeting was for Cailan and the Wardens to draw the Darkspawn into the valley, allowing Loghain to charge from cover and flank the horde. It was a relatively good plan then went totally out the window when Leeroy Jenkins Cailan ordered his forces to charge, breaking the defensive line and throwing everyone out of position.
Duncan didn't go along with the charge, he was a bystander on the frontlines and just as screwed as everyone when that went down.
Although, I suppose it makes sense why people might seek to blame the Wardens who have such a sketchy history, rather than wanting to tarnish the memory and legacy of "Good King Cailan". Better to remember him as a good King who died valiantly, than admitting that his inability to follow a simple instruction, got himself and everyone around him killed.
I think that is a fair point, and I will yield it to you. None the less, the Wardens' history is far more than sketchy. At times it is outright monstrous.
What about an exalted march on Bioware? We need another Dragon Age soon.
I thought Teagan was being kind of dickish too, but at the time I somehow ended up with Vivienne as my divine so I gladly disbanded the inquisition and ended up with my IQ and Cullen heading off to Southreach to meet Cullen's family. 
Awwww...I couldn't be mad after that. Still, I DID think Teagans attitude was out of character and I'm hoping there will be a better explanation for it in DA4. With what they did with him I'd go with blood mages controling him or the real Teagan is in prison/dead and he was being impersonated by some evil thing for that meeting.
I thought Teagan was being kind of dickish too, but at the time I somehow ended up with Vivienne as my divine so I gladly disbanded the inquisition and ended up with my IQ and Cullen heading off to Southreach to meet Cullen's family.
I really don't get how it's out of character for him. My understand of Trespasser is that he's treating you the same way he treated Loghain in that cutscene early into Origins. And for roughly the same reason: he sees you as taking power that you don't really have a right to.
I really don't get how it's out of character for him. My understand of Trespasser is that he's treating you the same way he treated Loghain in that cutscene early into Origins. And for roughly the same reason: he sees you as taking power that you don't really have a right to.
I respect this, but let's also keep in mind that the king was his nephew so there was a personal issue as well. Also, he is acting on the King's orders. In short, he is doing what he is told to. I always dissolve the Inquisition. I will not bind myself to the Chantry nor will I permit Orlais to take advantage of whatever power and influence I have gathered. Nor, of course, did I ever intend to help Ferelden out again or Orlais. Their lack of gratitude is overwhelming.
Considering the Inquisition was a stabilizing force that tried to work with Fereldon nobility during the breach crisis, it remained neutral when it came to politics (as long as issues didn't include people siding with Coryphius), Josephine worked her but off to get a peace treaty between Alister and Celene, their troops were protectors of the people and they were succeeding at that where Teagan and Alister failed.
The Inquisition was far more prepared to handle crisises than the Fereldon crown could ever hope to do. Teagan seemed more concerned about losing control of the trade route through Caer Bronach, than he did about anything else, and the Inquisition took that from a group of thugs who were raiding the locals. There was no aid from Denerim there.
You would think Alister would've been a tad more appreciative considering he personally knew key members of the Inquisition and knew what kind of people they were. Lelianna helped the HoF defeat the archdemon, Cullen was Fereldon and still had family there, Hawk he met and congratulated in Kirkwall. He also had experience dealing with uppity, self-centered nobles and knew how difficult it was to try and save the world while greedy idiots are running around trying to grab for power. I would have thought there would've been more of an alliance between Fereldon and the Inquisition, than the petty dispute Teagan came to the meeting with.
Considering the Inquisition was a stabilizing force that tried to work with Fereldon nobility during the breach crisis, it remained neutral when it came to politics (as long as issues didn't include people siding with Coryphius), Josephine worked her but off to get a peace treaty between Alister and Celene, their troops were protectors of the people and they were succeeding at that where Teagan and Alister failed.
The Inquisition was far more prepared to handle crisises than the Fereldon crown could ever hope to do. Teagan seemed more concerned about losing control of the trade route through Caer Bronach, than he did about anything else, and the Inquisition took that from a group of thugs who were raiding the locals. There was no aid from Denerim there.
You would think Alister would've been a tad more appreciative considering he personally knew key members of the Inquisition and knew what kind of people they were. Lelianna helped the HoF defeat the archdemon, Cullen was Fereldon and still had family there, Hawk he met and congratulated in Kirkwall. He also had experience dealing with uppity, self-centered nobles and knew how difficult it was to try and save the world while greedy idiots are running around trying to grab for power. I would have thought there would've been more of an alliance between Fereldon and the Inquisition, than the petty dispute Teagan came to the meeting with.
This is extremely well put.
This is extremely well put.
Thank-you. I honestly found Teagan's attitude in Trespasser very hard to swallow. If they leave his story there, I'll be very disappointed. It struck me more that there was trouble in Fereldon, than Teagan having a valid point.
Now, IF in a later storyline it is revealed that Alister was aware of corruption in the Inquisition and he had contacted the IQ about it and they came up with the solution to dissolve the Inquisition together to clean up the mess...ok, I can live with that. If it turns out that Teagan wasn't acting under Alister's complete orders, I can live with that too. If it turns out Fereldon has some kind of corrupting influence in it's leadership, great! But to leave it like Fereldon's leadership has suddenly become a money grubbing, paranoid entity who doesn't express their concerns to the Inquisition, then I do take issue with that development.
Thank-you.
Now, IF in a later storyline it is revealed that Alister was aware of corruption in the Inquisition and he had contacted the IQ about it and they came up with the solution to dissolve the Inquisition together to clean up the mess...ok, I can live with that. If it turns out that Teagan wasn't acting under Alister's complete orders, I can live with that too. If it turns out Fereldon has some kind of corrupting influence in it's leadership, great! But to leave it like Fereldon's leadership has suddenly become a money grubbing, paranoid entity who doesn't express their concerns to the Inquisition, then I do take issue with that development.
Well put and thought through. Sadly, I suspect that it has to do with protecting their precious power. I did the Witch Hunt DLC and when I passed the cursor over Denerim low and behold the alienage was still in disrepair. So, if you played as a city elf you see that the fickle Alastair did not aid the elves to any significant part. The first inquisition was commanded by an elf, and low and behold the Chantry / Orlais hushed it up. So if you play as an elf, best be prepared for loads of ingratitude once of course you have won the day. Note too that Ferelden provides nothing except missions on the mission table. I am not impressed by Alastair in the least.
It would be a shame if they take a beloved character like Alister and wreck his story by turning him into the kind of character he was feuding with in DAO, and not give some kind of reasoning for it. Him wanting power is not a good enough excuse. It would work if Anora was on the throne, but not Alister. Alister didn't even want the throne.
There are some interesting ways they can work this, if they drop the ball here then they are a real disappointment.
Considering the Inquisition was a stabilizing force that tried to work with Fereldon nobility during the breach crisis, it remained neutral when it came to politics (as long as issues didn't include people siding with Coryphius), Josephine worked her but off to get a peace treaty between Alister and Celene, their troops were protectors of the people and they were succeeding at that where Teagan and Alister failed.
The Inquisition was far more prepared to handle crisises than the Fereldon crown could ever hope to do. Teagan seemed more concerned about losing control of the trade route through Caer Bronach, than he did about anything else, and the Inquisition took that from a group of thugs who were raiding the locals. There was no aid from Denerim there.
The thing is that if you can argue the Inquisition was better equipped to handle what was going on during the third game, you can also argue that Teagan had no reason to believe he and Eamon were better equipped to handle the plot of the first game than Loghain was. Loghain could not have handled the final challenge you have to solve, but Eamon and Teagan couldn't have handled it without you and Teagan is standing up to Loghain before he knows he's going to have your help. All Teagan knows at the time is that he doesn't want Loghain to rule Ferelden, and that Loghain seems to be de facto in control of it. (Well, that and that Loghain has a whole lot more men and power than he does, and that men and power are going to be needed to handle the darkspawn.)
In short, Teagan stood up to Loghain when he perceived that Loghain was out of line, in spite of Loghain's past service to the country and the fact that there were actual reasons to throw in with Loghain. (If only temporarily.) I therefore don't think we can say that standing up to the Inquisition in similar circumstances (minus the potential apocalypse, since one important distinction is that this time Teagan waited for the apocalypse to end before he started throwing shade around) is out of character for him. I don't think your last post really answered that point.
Edit: I did forget that Teagan had the additional reason of Cailan's death to rebel against Loghain. But if he wasn't inclined to rebel against authority he perceived as illegitimate he probably would have at least knuckled under for the duration of the crisis, because as I've said, there was reason to. And since standing up to authority that rubbed him the wrong way worked the first time...
You would think Alister would've been a tad more appreciative considering he personally knew key members of the Inquisition and knew what kind of people they were. Lelianna helped the HoF defeat the archdemon, Cullen was Fereldon and still had family there, Hawk he met and congratulated in Kirkwall. He also had experience dealing with uppity, self-centered nobles and knew how difficult it was to try and save the world while greedy idiots are running around trying to grab for power. I would have thought there would've been more of an alliance between Fereldon and the Inquisition, than the petty dispute Teagan came to the meeting with.
Well, if you're arguing that this is a surprise coming from Alistair you arguably have a point. But then again, we know that Eamon stayed in Denerim to advise Alistair, and Alistair could also be sharing the throne with Anora. (For a definition of "sharing the throne" that includes her actually having all the power legally, as it's made clear in Origins that's how it's going to be.) Those two might be able to sell having the Inquisition disbanded as a good idea, since he knows they have more experience with this kind of thing than he does... and because having an armed NGO in your country that you don't have much or any control over is arguably a scary thought even if you know some of the leadership and even if they haven't just spent an entire DLC driving the point home. True, the Crown of Ferelden has been putting up with that from the Wardens and the Templars for a while, but for one thing those two groups serve actual purposes: the Templars police mages and the Wardens handle darkspawn, whereas Teagan argues (quite correctly) that the Inquisition doesn't seem to have had a purpose for the last two years. And for another thing, given the way the Wardens and Templars handled themselves in Inquisition I'd be surprised if the ruling class of Ferelden isn't suddenly a lot more wary of them too.
The thing is that if you can argue the Inquisition was better equipped to handle what was going on during the third game, you can also argue that Teagan had no reason to believe he and Eamon were better equipped to handle the plot of the first game than Loghain was. Loghain could not have handled the final challenge you have to solve, but Eamon and Teagan couldn't have handled it without you and Teagan is standing up to Loghain before he knows he's going to have your help. All Teagan knows at the time is that he doesn't want Loghain to rule Ferelden, and that Loghain seems to be de facto in control of it. (Well, that and that Loghain has a whole lot more men and power than he does, and that men and power are going to be needed to handle the darkspawn.)
In short, Teagan stood up to Loghain when he perceived that Loghain was out of line, in spite of Loghain's past service to the country and the fact that there were actual reasons to throw in with Loghain. (If only temporarily.) I therefore don't think we can say that standing up to the Inquisition in similar circumstances (minus the potential apocalypse, since one important distinction is that this time Teagan waited for the apocalypse to end before he started throwing shade around) is out of character for him. I don't think your last post really answered that point.
Challenging Loghain is a lot more understandable, a king died for Loghain to attempt to take over. A king that Loghain was supposed to battle along side, but Loghain pulled his troops out and abandoned the king, allowed him to die. There was enough cause to question Loghain's raise to power and to accuse the move to be 'advantageous.' Not to mention how Loghain was moving his cronies into power while stealing land away from Therin loyal nobility. Everything about Loghain was suspicious. At Ostagar he was claiming there was NO blight, then turns around and claims there IS a blight when his leadership is challenged.
There is no similar circumstance, in fact the Inquisition was backing the throne and assisting in removing threats to the throne, they never said "You have an outbreak of possible Venatori spies?? Sucks to be you! We're not going to risk our people to save your royalty's ass!" No! The IQ sent in people to expose the spies and save the throne.
If Teagan was so worried about why the Inquisition was still around a couple of years after the breach was closed, then Denerim should've had ambassadors within the Inquisition. I doubt information on their progress would've been witheld, in fact, I would think the Inquisition would want to keep lines open with Fereldon so they could locate any Venatori stragglers.
Wow, what a necro, and now Alistair being a treacherous jerk is a surprise? The HoF was more intimate to him that what the Inquisitor could ever dream, and he betrays him/her if (s)he doesn't submit to his tantrum and kills Loghain, pretty sure that little scum is only good at complaining, blaming people for what's wrong and backstabbing people who aided him.
If we exclude some characters, I could say that: "Betraying is the Fereldan national pastime"
Well put. I never considered Alastair to be anything less. In DAO the first question out of my mouth is "Any other surprises I should know about?" Now he has just told me that Wardens can hear the darkspawn. Notice that inevitably he waits until HoF has done all the heavy lifting in getting the armies gathered etc. before the joyful news that the Wardens have poisoned you with a long, lingering death, madness and ghouldom. Deceitful is a kind word for it, and frankly if he was raised at Redcliff by Teagan and Eamon, I suppose we could expect no less during DAI.
Challenging Loghain is a lot more understandable, a king died for Loghain to attempt to take over. A king that Loghain was supposed to battle along side, but Loghain pulled his troops out and abandoned the king, allowed him to die. There was enough cause to question Loghain's raise to power and to accuse the move to be 'advantageous.' Not to mention how Loghain was moving his cronies into power while stealing land away from Therin loyal nobility. Everything about Loghain was suspicious. At Ostagar he was claiming there was NO blight, then turns around and claims there IS a blight when his leadership is challenged.
There is no similar circumstance, in fact the Inquisition was backing the throne and assisting in removing threats to the throne, they never said "You have an outbreak of possible Venatori spies?? Sucks to be you! We're not going to risk our people to save your royalty's ass!" No! The IQ sent in people to expose the spies and save the throne.
If Teagan was so worried about why the Inquisition was still around a couple of years after the breach was closed, then Denerim should've had ambassadors within the Inquisition. I doubt information on their progress would've been witheld, in fact, I would think the Inquisition would want to keep lines open with Fereldon so they could locate any Venatori stragglers.
This is exceptionally well put. You should seriously consider doing some writing of your own. As I think back on it, didn't Teagan stay in the chantry with the women and children while poorly trained villagers remained outside with HoF to fight. I never thought of it until now, but that surely seems "interesting." I suspect that it comes down to what they want. I always tell Alastair I don't want to be a Warden to get the full minus 10 approval. Then I spend the entire game listening to him whine about now having wanted to be a templar. It speaks to their character, and the lack of it in my view.
This is exceptionally well put. You should seriously consider doing some writing of your own. As I think back on it, didn't Teagan stay in the chantry with the women and children while poorly trained villagers remained outside with HoF to fight. I never thought of it until now, but that surely seems "interesting." I suspect that it comes down to what they want. I always tell Alastair I don't want to be a Warden to get the full minus 10 approval. Then I spend the entire game listening to him whine about now having wanted to be a templar. It speaks to their character, and the lack of it in my view.
Thank-you again DDJ I've actually been messing around with my own story on how I think some of the subplots should go, but it's really up to the writers so what I'm doing is for my own enjoyment. And yes! I thought Teagan was a bit of a worm too, same with Eamon. I found Alister too clingy at times and a bit too whinney, but I never thought of him as someone who would go power hungry. He was spending too much time away from the throne, he was more a PR figurehead and kind of dense when it came to being in control. (That's why Zev is always my romance choice, at least Zev was always straight forward and honest about his motivations.)
Thank-you again DDJ
Definitely whinney and clingy, but I think "kind of dense" is a kind understatement. Morrigan is right - the dog is smarter.
Definitely whinney and clingy, but I think "kind of dense" is a kind understatement. Morrigan is right - the dog is smarter.
LOL...I think Morrigan and Alister should get together, Morrigan would make a great queen and then there would already be an heir to the throne...if you went that way. She would keep Alister in line anyway. 
Challenging Loghain is a lot more understandable, a king died for Loghain to attempt to take over. A king that Loghain was supposed to battle along side, but Loghain pulled his troops out and abandoned the king, allowed him to die. There was enough cause to question Loghain's raise to power and to accuse the move to be 'advantageous.' Not to mention how Loghain was moving his cronies into power while stealing land away from Therin loyal nobility. Everything about Loghain was suspicious. At Ostagar he was claiming there was NO blight, then turns around and claims there IS a blight when his leadership is challenged.
Whether or not he had reason to view Loghain's actions as a power grab isn't central to my point. That he did view Loghain's actions as a power grab, and now views yours the same way, is central to my point. My actual point is that your initial point (that this is out of character for Teagan) doesn't seem entirely accurate.
And you know, it's not like he doesn't have reasons to be worried that you are going for a power grab. You probably took Caer Bronach, and if you did you are apparently continuing to hold it, and you don't really have royal permission. You have standing armies that don't answer to him, or to those he answers to, or to the Divine (yet) or to anyone but yourself. Leiliana apparently has spies everywhere, and is able to contact the Crows for you. You've used all of that to avert a potential apocalypse, but what are you going to do with those alarming resources now that it's done?
Actually, to get off of what you might do in the future do for a second, what might you have already done? I'm going to concede that I've taken some really questionable choices in my playthroughs, because I thought it made more sense or was what my character would do or just made the game more fun. But I'm not sure Teagan should be willing to accept all of those excuses when he reads reports that I snuck Thom Rainer out of prison or sent a bunch of animated corpses after the Venatori or put Cullen back on lyrium or killed a man so that his widow could keep his money and marry the soldier she truly loves. If your Inquisitor has done any or especially most of that (two of those quests are mutually exclusive, so you can't have done it all,) then maybe Teagan is right to be afraid of what your Inquisitor will do next.
There is no similar circumstance, in fact the Inquisition was backing the throne and assisting in removing threats to the throne, they never said "You have an outbreak of possible Venatori spies?? Sucks to be you! We're not going to risk our people to save your royalty's ass!" No! The IQ sent in people to expose the spies and save the throne.
You're sure there's no similar circumstances? You mentioned land-grabbing as one of Loghain's crimes. He's arguably not wrong to accuse the Inquisition of that with Caer Bronach. Yes, wiping out the bandits was necessary, but did you actually need to move soldiers in? Or keep them there two years later rather than try to hand the Keep back to Ferelden?
If Teagan was so worried about why the Inquisition was still around a couple of years after the breach was closed, then Denerim should've had ambassadors within the Inquisition. I doubt information on their progress would've been witheld, in fact, I would think the Inquisition would want to keep lines open with Fereldon so they could locate any Venatori stragglers.
I'm not necessarily arguing that there were no other ways Ferelden could have gone about settling their concerns. Merely that those concerns aren't entirely unjustified.
This is exceptionally well put. You should seriously consider doing some writing of your own. As I think back on it, didn't Teagan stay in the chantry with the women and children while poorly trained villagers remained outside with HoF to fight. I never thought of it until now, but that surely seems "interesting."
He also says "go ahead and sacrifice me to protect my brother" before he heads off alone into what he is entirely sure is a trap. So if you're accusing him of cowardice, I'd have to say you probably don't have a leg to stand on.
Well put. I never considered Alastair to be anything less. In DAO the first question out of my mouth is "Any other surprises I should know about?" Now he has just told me that Wardens can hear the darkspawn. Notice that inevitably he waits until HoF has done all the heavy lifting in getting the armies gathered etc. before the joyful news that the Wardens have poisoned you with a long, lingering death, madness and ghouldom. Deceitful is a kind word for it, and frankly if he was raised at Redcliff by Teagan and Eamon, I suppose we could expect no less during DAI.
It's a price he's paying himself without much complaint. And as for your accusation that he lets you Warden it up for most of a year before telling you what the Joining does I usually get that dialogue early. I think my first playthrough Lothering was still standing when I learned my character was dying less slowly than average.
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