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[DDJ]

 

Under the control of who the headquarters of the Anderfels?

GW commanders and GW in general are left with great autonomy by the first warden they can do whatever they want and there are plenty of characters who are well aware of GW secrets but are not bound to the order

(Anders,Avernus,drunk Alistair,all the missing  GW of DAA) and  they are not hunted by the first warden.

 

 

Not that we know of anyway.  If they are willing to kill Jory for refusing to take the blood, the only secret he knew, how much more willing will they be to kill HoF who would be believed far and wide.  Fiona, put in the mage tower, was lucky.  Anders was on the run, and Avernus was isolated by the demon army.  Alastair remained in the Wardens drunk or not if I recall correctly.  So, Fiona is the exception due to her close ties to Maric, not the rule.

[KaiserShep]

Not that we know of anyway.  If they are willing to kill Jory for refusing to take the blood, the only secret he knew, how much more willing will they be to kill HoF who would be believed far and wide.  Fiona, put in the mage tower, was lucky.  Anders was on the run, and Avernus was isolated by the demon army.  Alastair remained in the Wardens drunk or not if I recall correctly.  So, Fiona is the exception due to her close ties to Maric, not the rule.

 

 

I wonder though. If Jory decided to just turn and run, would Duncan still have killed him? Maybe he would have, but Jory did pull his sword out. 

[DDJ]

I wonder though. If Jory decided to just turn and run, would Duncan still have killed him? Maybe he would have, but Jory did pull his sword out. 

 

Granted, as he was backing away and refusing to drink.

[VivainaDX]

Well put.  There is too little information on those two years, and for all we know this whole thing was contrived to get rid of a rival / threat.

I also just remembered, if the Inquisition goes down both who ever is Devine and the Empress Orlais will be in danger. They both have strong ties to the Inqusition. Whoever wants to see the Inquisition fall also wants to take out all the heavy hitters...Teagan! You sly dog, you! No wonder my team doesn't want to talk to you, you're in cahoots with some real bad dudes who want to put South Thedas into turmoil! Trying to continue Corypheus's plot are you? Hmmmmm.....

[Lunatica]

Alastair remained in the Wardens drunk or not if I recall correctly.  

Drunk Alistair is not with the Grey wardens.

[Aren]

Not that we know of anyway.  

 

Anora knew something about the joining but Riordan did not wanted to kill her

Anders abandoned the order but Stroud and all the GW that were with him in the deep roads did not hunted the mage.

Drunk Alistair is not hunted by the GW.

 

 

The GW don't care about the dissidents,they do care only if they know high GW secrets like those known by Genevieve's brother which was the one who told to the Architect where the old god of DAO was.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I need more to go on, than the Inquisition's acting dodgy, go with it.     Not being able to consult with all involved properly, leaves it me in the position of having to trust where I left my IQ and it's people at the end of  DAI, thus making me have to trust their word over Teagan's, regardless of what evidence is given to the contrary. I'm just stubborn that way. 

I was a bit more specific than "the Inquisition's acting dodgy, go with it," if you'll recall. I specifically pointed out that Josephine implies she's been dodging politicians for a while, and that while she only states she's been dodging Orlesian politicians she also states that Ferelden's are more dangerous to them. I also pointed out that they show a shocking lack of political tact in the DLC itself. This does not point to the Inquisition being worthy the trust you place in them to have acted tactfully in the past, and the results don't speak to it being worthy of Ferelden trusting it to do much of anything.

 

I suppose it is okay (though not optimal) that you're going with this interpretation despite all the evidence (or perhaps I should say such evidence as there is) being against it, but I do wish you'd admitted that that's how it's going to be a while ago. It might have saved us some effort.

 

 

Well put.  There is too little information on those two years, and for all we know this whole thing was contrived to get rid of a rival / threat.

A lot of the evidence I cited is the Inquisition's own actions. Unless you assume Teagan is a secret maleficar or has one under his control (or is under the control of one) he can't contrive that, and if he did there's got to be a simpler way he could have used that power to achieve his ends. Manipulate Cyril in order to sabotage his efforts to manipulate the Inquisition, maybe? Or just put suggestions into the Inquisition's heads to make them hear anything Teagan says as shockingly reasonable and worthy of more than ten seconds consideration? That might actually achieve something more advantageous than the Inquisition disbanding, if Teagan really wants to have some fun.

 

Not to mention that you'd expect Teagan or whoever's using that power to investigate when the Inquisitor walks out (because a manipulative Teagan or the boss of a manipulated one would see it as a serious red flag rather than the calculated insult Teagan to all appearances mistakes it for) and use their power as a weapon against the Qunari... which doesn't seem to have happened. Yes, maintaining cover is important, but the Qunari change things and no sane mage wants them anywhere nearby.

 

Oh, and if he was using such power he'd have to be able to slip it by any Divine Victoria. One is a veteran spy (albeit a sloppy one sometimes) one is a mage, and one is the setting's version of a witchhunter. Assuming that nothing is wrong apart from the Inquisition acting dodgy is a lot simpler than assuming Teagan's either manipulating events or the pawn of someone who is, and that the mastermind not only got away with it but possibly achieved their goals.

[DDJ]

Drunk Alistair is not with the Grey wardens.

 

I do not know for certain as I never played to a drunk Alastair conclusion, but he is still as much a Warden as Anders is, and Anders is hiding out.

[DDJ]

 

 

Anora knew something about the joining but Riordan did not wanted to kill her

Anders abandoned the order but Stroud and all the GW that were with him in the deep roads did not hunted the mage.

Drunk Alistair is not hunted by the GW.

 

 

The GW don't care about the dissidents,they do care only if they know high GW secrets like those known by Genevieve's brother which was the one who told to the Architect where the old god of DAO was.

 

 

And yet they still kill Jory, who knows far fewer secrets, for refusing to drink because he has a wife and child.  Most interesting.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I do not know for certain as I never played to a drunk Alastair conclusion, but he is still as much a Warden as Anders is, and Anders is hiding out.

I played Drunk Alistair. Loghain was the Warden contact and Alistair didn't appear in the game.

[DDJ]

I played Drunk Alistair. Loghain was the Warden contact and Alistair didn't appear in the game.

 

Okay, but that does not translate into him not being hunted necessarily.  Just a thought.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Okay, but that does not translate into him not being hunted necessarily.  Just a thought.

Well, if that's what we're talking about, Teagan retrieving him means he has a powerful protector. That won't stop the Wardens if they really want him dead, but they'll consider how badly they want him dead with an obstacle like that. Besides which the Wardens have their hands full during Inquisition.

[DDJ]

Well, if that's what we're talking about, Teagan retrieving him means he has a powerful protector. That won't stop the Wardens if they really want him dead, but they'll consider how badly they want him dead with an obstacle like that. Besides which the Wardens have their hands full during Inquisition.

 

And of course, drunk A will feel the calling the same as any regular Warden.

[Sifr]

And yet they still kill Jory, who knows far fewer secrets, for refusing to drink because he has a wife and child.  Most interesting.

 

I think that it was more because Jory drew his blade against Duncan.

 

During that scene, Duncan gives him the chance to back down and go through with the Joining, continuing to hold the Joining chalice even after Jory has drawn his sword against him. When it becomes clear that Jory is more prepared to fight them than Darkspawn, Duncan is forced to respond in kind.

 

Spoiler

Duncan: Step forward, Jory.

 

*Jory draws his blade*

 

Jory: But I have a wife, a child. Had I known...

Duncan: There is no turning back.

 

*Jory raises his blade in a defensive stance*

 

Jory: No, you ask too much! There is no glory in this!

 

*Duncan draws his blade and deftly parries Jory's strikes, before stabbing him*

 

When it comes to their secrets and dealing with deserters, I suspect that it really varies depending on who's enforcing the rules, similar to how some Templars or Circles are more prone to cracking down than others?

[DDJ]

I think that it was more because Jory drew his blade against Duncan.

 

During that scene, Duncan gives him the chance to back down and go through with the Joining, continuing to hold the Joining chalice even after Jory has drawn his sword against him. When it becomes clear that Jory is more prepared to fight them than Darkspawn, Duncan is forced to respond in kind.

 

Spoiler

Duncan: Step forward, Jory.

 

*Jory draws his blade*

 

Jory: But I have a wife, a child. Had I known...

Duncan: There is no turning back.

 

*Jory raises his blade in a defensive stance*

 

Jory: No, you ask too much! There is no glory in this!

 

*Duncan draws his blade and deftly parries Jory's strikes, before stabbing him*

 

When it comes to their secrets and dealing with deserters, I suspect that it really varies depending on who's enforcing the rules, similar to how some Templars or Circles are more prone to cracking down than others?

 

Possibly, but in the narrative you missed the part where Jory was backing away from Duncan.  He did not attack Duncan until Duncan drew his own weapon.  You are probably right about who enforces the rules, but I don't think that makes it better.  Duncan himself was a conscript if you read the first book of the series, but he was conscripted so that one of the Wardens could have revenge on him.  I admit that I have never been a big Warden fan, and Bioware's obsession for justification and overlooking the obvious crimes "for the greater good" has never sat well with me.  Still, I am not the one who writes the characters, so if there is condemnation to be had they created it all on their own.  I do respect your opinion of course and you raise good points.

[sentinel_87]

The funny thing for me is I was totally agreeing with everything he was saying at the conclave.  My inquisitor exiled the Grey Wardens, always wanted to do that in DA game and was really surprised when I could (always headcanoned my prince consort Cousland as disliking the Wardens and wanted to in DAO at the end), and never intended the Inquisition to remain past the threat of the rifts.

 

Can you really blame him though?  If you an official for one nations government and saw an supranational organization set up military encampments inside your own borders for years on end how would you react?  You've just been invaded, albeit peaceably and under the auspice of help.  At what point does that land just become Inquisition territory flat out instead of Ferelden land under the protection of the Inquisition?  Is he supposed to sit there and beg and grovel for the Inquisition to return control of rightful Ferelden territory?

 

The whole conclave was interesting though.  On the Orlesian side you had their ambassador totally fine with Ferelden having problems with the Inquisition.  I got the feeling they were more than happy to have a quasi proxy war with Ferelden by using the Inquisition, a lot like national relations in the real world.

[Sifr]

I suspect that Duncan was probably a lot more firm in enforcing the rules than the Hero of Ferelden was, as well as a little bit more meticulous in who he considered to recruit. Jory seems to be the one exception, but he tells us he was recruited after winning a tourney held in Duncan's honour, so he probably felt obligated to accept him as a recruit, based solely on his combat merit rather than actually being suitable for the job.

 

The HoF seems to have been far less picky and lax about the rules than Duncan, probably because Ferelden was extremely short-staffed in Awakening and it would have been suicidal to turn away any help. Regardless of how you can play the HoF, it's probably canon that they were a bit of a maverick when it came to following the traditional Warden rules... although they did essentially end up in command on their first day on the job, so it's that strange they might not have remembered their ten second orientation before the battle.

[DDJ]

I suspect that Duncan was probably a lot more firm in enforcing the rules than the Hero of Ferelden was, as well as a little bit more meticulous in who he considered to recruit. Jory seems to be the one exception, but he tells us he was recruited after winning a tourney held in Duncan's honour, so he probably felt obligated to accept him as a recruit, based solely on his combat merit rather than actually being suitable for the job.

 

The HoF seems to have been far less picky and lax about the rules than Duncan, probably because Ferelden was extremely short-staffed in Awakening and it would have been suicidal to turn away any help. Regardless of how you can play the HoF, it's probably canon that they were a bit of a maverick when it came to following the traditional Warden rules... although they did essentially end up in command on their first day on the job, so it's that strange they might not have remembered their ten second orientation before the battle.

 

Granted, but it may well be that HoF was at the end of it all (otherwise the game ends in the prologue) and had no training as to how to be a "proper" Warden.  Anders is recruited to save him from the Templars, but in reality the option to reject them all does exist.  I suspect that HoF who is searching for a cure to the taint is less than enamored of the Wardens and makes the break after his/her home is free of the darkspawn,  Since Bioware seems afraid to bring the character back, we will likely never know.  I also think that HoF would not kill any of them who refused to drink.  The blood drinking seems widely known by DA Awakening, and since Alistair would not have revealed the truth far and wide, it was likely HoF.  That does not speak of someone zealously loyal to the Wardens which, thankfully, prevents them from joining the murderous assault on the Divine.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And of course, drunk A will feel the calling the same as any regular Warden.

I don't know that "of course" is called for. To the best of my knowledge we don't know how the spell picks its targets. It might have been that it targeted every Warden Nightmare individually pointed it at, but only those Wardens, and in that case there's no reason Alistair would hear the Calling unless he's actively serving. (Unless Corypheus thinks it might be to his advantage to gaslight King Alistair, which it might very well be since we've seen how Clarel responded to being gaslighted. But there's no point to gaslighting Drunkistair.) Or it might be that it targets every Warden in a certain area... though we still don't know how big that area would be. If every Warden in Orlais and Ferelden is targeted by the same casting, then Drunkistair hears it. If Nightmare has to deliberately target every single Warden compound, then Drunkistair was probably either overlooked or not bothered with.

 

 

Possibly, but in the narrative you missed the part where Jory was backing away from Duncan.  He did not attack Duncan until Duncan drew his own weapon.

 

In Duncan's defense, while I don't remember who swung first (or even if I could ever tell) I'm pretty sure Jory drew first. And I'm sure Jory did swing.

[VivainaDX]

 

 

In Duncan's defense, while I don't remember who swung first (or even if I could ever tell) I'm pretty sure Jory drew first. And I'm sure Jory did swing.

Yep, you're right! Jory did draw first.   He drew first, held his sword up in defense, Duncan drew, then Jory swung at Duncan's blade.

[Andromelek]

I believe that the use of death as a measure against deserters heavily depends on the local Warden Commander and the circumstances surrounding the desertion, if they are soft enough, or if, like Fiona, there is no way to put them back to work, they may spare deserters, although given that both Alistair and Anders avoid directly touching the subject, I'd say that Weishaupt's official decret is to chop off their heads, but then nobody consults them before doing some crap.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yep, you're right! Jory did draw first. He drew first, held his sword up in defense, Duncan drew, then Jory swung at Duncan's blade.

Thanks.

 

Now, I can see Duncan killing Jory even if Jory hadn't made it him or Duncan. But in this case it probably was Jory or Duncan, so that's a pretty large mitigating factor.

[VivainaDX]

I was a bit more specific than "the Inquisition's acting dodgy, go with it," if you'll recall. I specifically pointed out that Josephine implies she's been dodging politicians for a while, and that while she only states she's been dodging Orlesian politicians she also states that Ferelden's are more dangerous to them. I also pointed out that they show a shocking lack of political tact in the DLC itself. This does not point to the Inquisition being worthy the trust you place in them to have acted tactfully in the past, and the results don't speak to it being worthy of Ferelden trusting it to do much of anything.

 

I suppose it is okay (though not optimal) that you're going with this interpretation despite all the evidence (or perhaps I should say such evidence as there is) being against it, but I do wish you'd admitted that that's how it's going to be a while ago. It might have saved us some effort.

 

I thought I had made my position clear, on many occasions. You see, I'm the person you don't want to sit down and watch a mystery show with, I'll go through every possible scenario outloud and figure out what's going by mid show.. usually. There are times I can spot the bad guy within the first ten minutes. The way they laid Trespasser out, there's issues with the storyline, there's also ways to fix the issues IF the writers choose too. Teagan gave me the feeling there was something up with him, I trust that feeling. Now if that's where they plan on leaving it with Teagan, fine, whatever. I DO know that I won't be looking forward to the next DA game if they don't at least address that issue at some point. As a costumer, I am allowed to have an opinion on the subject and I am allowed to make suggestions. I am not completely satisfied with my purchase and it's because of the issue I have with Teagan and with the feeling the game railroaded it's players into a senario that  only suited one style of game play. If you're content with what was presented, bully for you. I on the other will be doubting to quality of future DA games after this and I highly doubt I'll ever be interested in another DLC for the game.

[VivainaDX]

Thanks.

 

Now, I can see Duncan killing Jory even if Jory hadn't made it him or Duncan. But in this case it probably was Jory or Duncan, so that's a pretty large mitigating factor.

Yes, it is. I do feel for Jory though, he was obviously terrified...and Duncan didn't like having to do what he was about to do.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I thought I had made my position clear, on many occasions. You see, I'm the person you don't want to sit down and watch a mystery show with, I'll go through every possible scenario outloud and figure out what's going by mid show.. usually. There are times I can spot the bad guy within the first ten minutes. The way they laid Trespasser out, there's issues with the storyline, there's also ways to fix the issues IF the writers choose too. Teagan gave me the feeling there was something up with him, I trust that feeling. Now if that's where they plan on leaving it with Teagan, fine, whatever. I DO know that I won't be looking forward to the next DA game if they don't at least address that issue at some point. As a costumer, I am allowed to have an opinion on the subject and I am allowed to make suggestions. I am not completely satisfied with my purchase and it's because of the issue I have with Teagan and with the feeling the game railroaded it's players into a senario that  only suited one style of game play. If you're content with what was presented, bully for you. I on the other will be doubting to quality of future DA games after this and I highly doubt I'll ever be interested in another DLC for the game.

As I've repeatedly stated, I can't actually say that I think Bioware did a good job here. But on the other hand I don't think there's any "fix" for this plot that won't make things less credible.

 

And yes, you'd made your position clear. You just hadn't actually stated that you weren't willing to abandon it if I gave you actual reason to. (Although I was starting to suspect.)

 

(I've also repeatedly stated that this is just my impressions from Youtube, by the way. I don't think I'll actually get this DLC, partially because of these plot issues and partially because playing the Inquisitior as they're losing control of the Anchor doesn't look fun.)