710 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[Ynqve]

Send organized forces ,act with approval of the order and anything that makes order (organisation) directly involved in that ,single guy/girl that runs around on their own reflects only himself/herself not an organisation. 

 

Alright. And how are they supposed to manage that when their Ferelden charter got wiped out and Ferelden has closed it's borders and outlawed them? 

 

And the HoF does reflect on the order. S/he is running around, acting on behalf of the order, using Warden treaties to get the aid s/he needs. It is true that the order never tell you how to solve every single issue. But your mission and your standing order throughout the game is "stop the blight, do whatever it takes" and that gives you a lot of freedom to act as you see fit. But it's still a sanctioned mission from the Wardens, they're just not that big on micro managing every single Warden in Thedas.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

Alright. And how are they supposed to manage that when their Ferelden charter got wiped out and Ferelden has closed it's borders and outlawed them? 

 

And the HoF does reflect on the order. S/he is running around, acting on behalf of the order, using Warden treaties to get the aid s/he needs. It is true that the order never tell you how to solve every single issue. But your mission and your standing order throughout the game is "stop the blight, do whatever it takes" and that gives you a lot of freedom to act as you see fit. But it's still a sanctioned mission from the Wardens, they're just not that big on micro managing every single Warden in Thedas.  

 

Once again you ignore point and shift it toward reason why they weren't involved instead once again what is important fact they weren't.

 

No they don't, once again that HoF is single individual acting on their own without any approval ,involvement or support from the order.The whole mission to stop blight wasn't organized action of the grey warden order only 1 single individual acting on his/her whims.You can stomp with your feet and scream how order was involved in HoF plan but it wasn't.Redcliff ,Connor and Ferelden werent' saved by grey warden order only by HoF.  

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Hate him now? When did he become?

 

Teagan has always been a hot-headed moron.

 

For all the grief that Loghain gets about seizing the throne in the middle of a Blight and indirectly causing a civil-war (the latter which he gets blamed for, because they say he should have foreseen it)... how about the guy who actually went ahead and all but declared that civil-war during that Blight (and, by extension, all his followers)?? I was not the least bit surprised to see him be a pain in the arse.

 

Best part is that his face has now taken the shape of Arl Rendon Howe. Now whenever my Inquisitor meets him I say "Howe now, brown cow?" behind my screen until I run out of breath (rinse and repeat for every subsequent meeting). Fun exercise. Try it some time.

 

And what the hell was that thing he was wearing? I am shocked Vivienne did not comment on how dreadful he looked.

[Ynqve]

Once again you ignore point and shift it toward reason why they weren't involved instead once again what is important fact they weren't.

 

No they don't, once again that HoF is single individual acting on their own without any approval ,involvement or support from the order.The whole mission to stop blight wasn't organized action of the grey warden order only 1 single individual acting on his/her whims.You can stomp with your feet and scream how order was involved in HoF plan but it wasn't.Redcliff ,Connor and Ferelden werent' saved by grey warden order only by HoF.  

 

I'm saying that they were as involved as they could have been under the circumstances. Every available Warden in Ferelden was involved in the operation. During the events, the HoF act on behalf of the order, with authority granted to him/her by the order. That makes the HoF a symbol of the order.

 

If the chain of command is broken, you have to improvise. And that's exactly what the Warden and Alistair did.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm saying that they were as involved as they could have been under the circumstances. Every available Warden in Ferelden was involved in the operation. During the events, the HoF act on behalf of the order, with authority granted to him/her by the order. That makes the HoF a symbol of the order.

 

If the chain of command is broken, you have to improvise. And that's exactly what the Warden and Alistair did.

 

And as i said it doesn't not matter and doesn't change fact that order wasn't involved.I can claim i act on behalf of police doesn't mean i do or police is involved ,and no it wasn't granted him by the order by any mean ,only by himself/herself.

 

And no HoF isn't not by any mean symbol of the order pretty much HoF can be far away from what grey wardens represent. Fact HoF is heroic/villainous won't make grey wardens any of those...

[ThePhoenixKing]

Teagan's argument is utterly ridiculous.  "We were invaded centuries ago by the Grey Wardens, and we repelled them. Now the Inquisition is near us with Grey Wardens, unacceptable!"

 

Let's take into account the fact that

1: Grey Wardens have been stationed in Ferelden FOR centuries

2: Ferelden is 15ish years out of a blight, prevented by a Grey Warden.

3: A Grey Warden personally saved his life, and perhaps that of his wife and son above and far beyond the call of duty.

4: Ferelden's ruler may or may not be a Grey Warden, even perhaps the Hero.

5: The Hero at the very least rules an arling.

 

Him using Grey Wardens as an attack against the Inquisition is perhaps the poorest writing I've seen from Bioware in the game.

 

Indeed. And once again, it seems that Bioware is incapable of writing conflict without someone suddenly becoming evil/stupid/incompotent/a complete *******. They really could have used anyone else to represent Ferelden if this is how they're going to be written. Alternatively, if they needed to place Teagan in a role where he's opposing the Inquisition, there's any number of possible objections he could have raised that would've felt both reasonable and, more importantly, true to the character. For example, he's probably still pretty steamed about the Mage Rebellion stabbing him in the back, usurping his fief and mistreating his subjects. Maybe he could bring up how the Inquisition "coddled" the mages by refusing to execute them outright after they stopped Alexius?

 

I have to wonder, does Bioware have a dartboard at the office, with the names of various characters and groups pasted on, and wherever the dart lands is who's getting a Character Derailment for the installment they're currently working on?

 

The Warden hate confused me. I was playing with a world state where Alistair and Anora rules and Loghain became a Warden so it was really strange for him to rant about the order like that. Alistair and Loghain may not agree with everything that the order does, but I'm pretty sure they don't hate the Wardens or consider support for the order to be a bad thing. Ferelden owes everything to two Wardens who managed to save their pit of brown mud from total annihilation just a decade earlier. Why would Ferelden forget that? It would have made more sense coming from the orlesians since they actually had recent Warden troubles.

 

Very true, having the Orlesians defend the Wardens and Ferelden condemn them makes no sense at all, given the Order's recent interactions with both countries. Was it Opposite Day when the Exalted Council was in session?

 

They went to get aid for the blight using Grey Warden treaties. It can't get much more on behalf than that.

 

Preach it, mate.

Użytkownik BioWareMod02 edytował ten post 09 wrzesień 2015 - 10:30

[Dean_the_Young]

The HOF is a represent of the GW, sense you know, they ALL died at Ostagar.

 

Really? Wow. I thought there were tons more in Orlais and the Anderfels and the rest of Thedas.

 

The Warden only got to represent the Wardens, in so much as you made it up as you went along, for a year or three before the Order re-established itself.

[JJDXB]

We've got a serious case of hero dissonance here.  It's important to remember a few important truths

 

1 - Only you know your character's motivations and intentions: nobody else, including Teagan, knows what you're going to do and why

2 - Just because you're the hero doesn't mean that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid or evil

3 - The inquisition achieved the goal it was formed for two years ago

 

With that in mind, I will also argue that saving the world doesn't mean that everyone should be utterly beholden to you for the rest of time.  If they have serious concerns about the way you are acting, they should raise those concerns.  Being grateful doesn't mean being a spineless slave.  Furthermore, on the information he had, Teagan was right. 

 

Spoiler

The Inquisition did save the day, but it only needed to be saved because it continued to exist.  In the meantime, before any serious threat to Southern Thedas had been acknowledged by anyone, including the Inquisition, you keep the Qunari body a secret.  It might be fine if it was in some dingy wooded area in the Dales, but there was a dead Qunari in the middle of Halamshiral, the second most important city in one of the three most important nations in Thedas, who was found in during the most important political congregation in the South since the peace talks two years ago.

 

{OK, suppose you do tell the council about the Qunari from the get-go.  Why, pray tell, is it up to you to sort it?}

 

Then, once you establish a threat, the gaatlok plot, you keep it a secret and your forces take over part of the Winter Palace by force (and again, 1000% sovereign Orlesian territory) without actually explaining anything.

 

And those are the things that must happen.  You have choices that make it even worse, like arresting the elf who was handling the gaatlok, as if you had any authority to act in this situation.  Why would you (and again, in Halamshiral)?  You would because it's linked with this Qunari thing only you know about.  You continue to keep it hush-hush and so it appears the inquisition has randomly arrested some elf and overridden the Orlesian guards, which does absolutely nothing to allay the fears of those who believe the Inquisition is over-stepping it's mandate - which, I will remind you, was fulfilled two years ago.  A second choice, choosing not to tell the council about the Qunari plot to blow up the palaces of Southern Thedas.  A third, to not tell them the Qunari are targeting you directly.  They find out, and they're rightly furious.  The fact that you continue to exist as a person and an organisation has culminated in a Qunari attack on Halamshiral, and a means to conquer Thedas.

 

 

Of course, everybody's being played

 

Spoiler

 

by Fen'harel, but nobody knew that so it hardly proves you right.  The Inquisition can have a new purpose again, but it's only due to some extra-extraordinary circumstances that nobody would ever plan for.  Who in their right mind would go: you've saved the world, and you're the most powerful organisation in Thedas.  We'll leave you be, even though your forces are all over our land and our castles, on the off chance that in a few years another Big Bad shows up linked to the rift and veil.  If it's just another Big Bad, there's no reason to turn to you, since your concern was primarily the veil.  You are no longer the only one equipped to deal with the problem right from the get-go.

 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Nope, I love him more than ever.

 

One of Bioware's weakness in the ME series is that the guys who are always nice to the hero are always seen as good and brave (Anderson/Hackett/Wrex/Legion) while people who dare disagree with Space Jesus about anything (like Udina/TIM/Han'Garrel) always end up being wrong and corrupt!!!

 

I'm glad they didn't turn Teagan into a "Yes man" who hangs around to stroke the main characters ego instead he's got different opinions on different things. The guy even thanks you for taking care of Corypheus so it's not like he's ungrateful. He just become jaded after Loghain (who like the Inquisition ran around with an army saying he's doing it for the people) left Teagan's nephew to die.  He also lived through Orlais so he's afraid of losing Fereldan to Tyranny again.

 

Also, for once, the Orlesian guy was kinder to the main character. I was scared it was going to be more "Orlais is stupid! Look at how cool and special Fereldan is".

[JJDXB]

 

Also, for once, the Orlesian guy was kinder to the main character. I was scared it was going to be more "Orlais is stupid! Look at how cool and special Fereldan is".

 

 

Yeah, I thought that was hilarious.  These forums were filled with things like "Orlais will burn if they try to stop me", completely ignoring Ferelden, even if they knew what Teagan was actually arguing for, and it turns out the Orlesians were the "reasonable" ones.

 

Spoiler

They'd be fine with you still being around, so long as they knew exactly what your mandate and responsibilities were, were fine with it, AND that you had oversight.  Really, Teagan and Cyril were concerned about the same thing, but the Orlesians weren't gunning for your dismantling unless you forced their hand.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Yeah, I thought that was hilarious.  These forums were filled with things like "Orlais will burn if they try to stop me", completely ignoring Ferelden, even if they knew what Teagan was actually arguing for, and it turns out the Orlesians were the "reasonable" ones.

 

Spoiler

They'd be fine with you still being around, so long as they knew exactly what your mandate and responsibilities were, were fine with it, AND that you had oversight.  Really, Teagan and Cyril were concerned about the same thing, but the Orlesians weren't gunning for your dismantling unless you forced their hand.

 

Yeah, Orlais are better at politics and appealing in their requests and I'm so happy this DLC showed it better. Dragon Age is supposed to be grey in terms of morality yet most people here act like Fereldan = Good and Orlais = Bad.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Ferelden politicking = Nord politicking. Orlais politicking = Imperial politicking.

[Ferretinabun]

It WAS an odd, WTF moment.

 

But... I like my character consistency so I'm going to try to work a bit of headcanon magic. Here goes:

 

Since Ostagar, the Ferelden wardens have been extremely few to say the least. I imagine most of the wardens arriving in Ferelden to re-establish the order have been Orlesian - Hell, you can even play as one in Awakenings.

 

So... perhaps for the last 15ish years, Fereldans have thought of 'Grey Wardens' as being, essentially, Orlesian. And the Fereldens DO hate the Orlesians (Eammon may have fallen in love with Isolde but few others seem to have warmed to her, sister-in-law or not).

 

So seen through the lens of general racism, Fereldens these days may view Wardens as Orlesians infiltrating their country under the excuse of 're-establishing order', with a view to launch a powergrab. Which is exactly the accusation Teagan levels at the Inquisition. 

 

There. How did I do?

[Rappeldrache]

Teagan was just ... honest. And he was afraid.

 

He don't REALLY knows the Inquisition. He have seen so mutch trouble the last years in Ferelden, he is just overcautious.

 

I don't hate him. I like him more than the Orlais fellow. I .... still like him, to be honest.

[Ariella]

A lot of people were saying similar things here in the States to FDR during the late 1930s and early '40s for much the same reason it seems Teagan is: he's tired of war. His people and lands suffered greatly over the last decade. That he has a bad reaction to any group that lacks oversight is a little understandable.

[introverted_assassin]

Teagan was an ******* when he sent that letter to the Inquisition if you go the In Hushed Whispers route. "I would prefer not to refer this matter to the crown". FOH, Teagan. Reinforces my belief that both he and Arl Eamon(mostly Eamon) would TRY to puppetmaster Alistair as a King ruling alone. I always hardened him if I decided to let him rule alone though and I feel that version of Alistair does not have time for the foolishness.

[Andromelek]

And as i said it doesn't not matter and doesn't change fact that order wasn't involved.I can claim i act on behalf of police doesn't mean i do or police is involved ,and no it wasn't granted him by the order by any mean ,only by himself/herself.
 
And no HoF isn't not by any mean symbol of the order pretty much HoF can be far away from what grey wardens represent. Fact HoF is heroic/villainous won't make grey wardens any of those...

That's your viewpoint and your logic, what matters here is Teagan's, the Order itself lacks of any moral code, their sole purpose is fight the Blight, but since there are no rules on the means to be taken in order to achieve such goal there have been many struggles among them, now, many Theodosian's logic has been categorized them as heroic because of five dudes that killed Archdemons the same apply to their faults, pretty sure Teagan brings the Inquisition's Grey Wardens as subjects to be blame because of Clarel's idiocy, using his logic, he's the kind of people that would give HoF's triumph to the Order, and for that he can be taken as an ungrateful motherfucker.

[Kingthlayer]

 

Pretty much what I'm just about to do.  Let Redcliffe burn, sacrifice Isolde but leave the demon in Connor, turn Alistair into a drunken mess and make Loghain a Warden.

 

Quite the opposite of the import I initially had planned but if Teagan is gonna be all dickish might as well give him a reason to do so.

[Para9on So1dier]

Shame we couldn't punch him.

[Andromelek]

Shame we couldn't punch him.

Shame we couldn't let the Qunari blow up Denerim's castle with all those Fereldan vermin.

[JJDXB]

That's your viewpoint and your logic, what matters here is Teagan's, the Order itself lacks of any moral code, their sole purpose is fight the Blight, but since there are no rules on the means to be taken in order to achieve such goal there have been many struggles among them, now, many Theodosian's logic has been categorized them as heroic because of five dudes that killed Archdemons the same apply to their faults, pretty sure Teagan brings the Inquisition's Grey Wardens as subjects to be blame because of Clarel's idiocy, using his logic, he's the kind of people that would give HoF's triumph to the Order, and for that he can be taken as an ungrateful motherfucker.

 

There's one fault in your position: The Orlesian Grey Wardens more or less willingly followed Clarel.  It's not just Clarel's mistake, it's the mistake of everyone who didn't do what Stroud did.  Also, the fact they got so desperate and did something really, really, really stupid and had the power to do so is perfectly justifiable cause for concern.

[Andromelek]

There's one fault in your position: The Orlesian Grey Wardens more or less willingly followed Clarel.  It's not just Clarel's mistake, it's the mistake of everyone who didn't do what Stroud did.  Also, the fact they got so desperate and did something really, really, really stupid and had the power to do so is perfectly justifiable cause for concern.

Well, all the dudes that refused were murdered, still, I think some people has taken Janeka's and Genevieve's idiocies as the Order's idiocy.

[mikeymoonshine]

Yeah I found his complaints to mostly be unreasonable and he seemed very out of character. That said I didn't have a problem with him being anti Inquisition, that could have been an interesting twist if the writing had been better. Making somewhat unreasonable complaints like the one about that keep in crestwood is the sort of things politicians do but the Grey Warden stuff made no sense at all. Grey Wardens saved him and all of Ferelden from a situation that was caused by a man who unfairly blamed the Grey Wardens for his crimes and painted them as mistrustful traitors. 

 

His fears are understandable, The Inquisition is a powerful military force on the borders of Ferelden. They have many allies, the support of the common people and a strong presence within ferelden whilst also being closely tied to the Orlesian throne. So yeah, while people don't expect Teagan to be the guy who opposes the PC it makes perfect sense for him to be. He has a reason to fear the Inquisition, where as Orlais has much less of one, especially now that the threat of Corypheus is gone. 

 

So idk why they chose to do it the way they did. 

[Nefla]

That guy is an ugly impostor.