206 réponses à ce sujet

[rapscallioness]

I also now wonder who the ruling elves that greeted the first humans ettlers with hostility refer to? All the elves, as a kingdom? Or the ruling class, if you will, of the Evanuris?

 

I mean, at that time it was all one thing really. But it makes me wonder what their reaction to these first humans would have been? And what that interaction was like? Sounds like the elvhen were fighting with the humans until Solas locked everything up.

 

The humans would have been mince meat soon fighting those guys if the Veil had not been created.

[rapscallioness]

Where did the regular elves come from then? The ones the Evanuris marked and enslaved? Were they originally Evanuris, too? Or...wait. I remember coming across some stuff that indicated the elves were there when the Evanuris came and taught them how to hunt and make clothes, etc. And fire. From Sylasie, I believe. So they were here already.

 

The Evanuris are simply very powerful mages that won a great war and became deified over time. Did they enslave their own people? Were they at one time a separate caste and that accounts for how they were so advanced and yet other elves were not?

 

I think I'm derailing. My bad. At any rate, I don't think it's elves vs humans. I think it's elite vs everyone else.

[Heimdall]

So? Templars or Mages joined corypheus it still didn't make it a Mage Vs Templar battle. Mostly because both sides had some mages/templars. This isn't really about race. This is more about Solas and his quest to restore what he believes to be his culture/his world. I'm going to guess even if he succeeds it will not look like it once was and it will not be what it once was either. It will backfire big time.

Not really even about restoring his culture. From the way he talks about discovering the world when he woke, he believes he essentially lobotomized the entire world by creating the veil and wants to undo it. He sees the elves and humans today like we see tranquil, incomplete beings untroubled by their current state because they can't comprehend what they've lost.

[Heimdall]

Rereading that passage makes me realize that when the humans first arrived on the scene, there was not a Veil yet.

It doesn't indicate that in any concrete way. I'm guessing they arrived shortly after the Veil was created. The elven people were recovering from the cataclysm and had yet to notice their aging (It's possible it was a gradual change, that the elves aged faster and faster over time until they aged like humans).

Okay, but what I was responding to was a question about where did the humans come from, at all. Not about the founding of Fereldan.

I must have gotten the reason the humans came to Thedas in the first place wrong, though. They did not flee a shadow goddess to Thedas? Why the humans came to Thedas at all is a mystery. Although some say they were always here. No one seems sure.

But yeah, it was not about the founding of Fereldan I was referring to, though, I see how my incorrect reference to the shadow goddess would make it seem like that.

edit: Ah, "The humans are said to have first appeared from the north as a single tribe known as the Neromenians. It's not known where they came from or why they came. The first human settlers were met with hostility from the ruling elves..."

Why the Neromenians came to Thedas is a mystery but while the Neromenians might have been the first humans in Thedas you should note that there is no connection between them and Alamarri or Ciriane people that came to populate Ferelden, Orlais, and some of the Free Marches, nor are the origins of the ethnically distinct Rivaini explained. They all came to populate the south (And evidently Rivain) long before Tevinter's reach extended that far.

[Dabrikishaw]

As everyone else said, this isn't really a Humans vs. Elves thing. Worst-case scenario is that no-one but the ancient elves benefit from Solas' ultimate goal and even die the instant the veil is lifted. 

 

I also don't think it would ever get that far because then it would be harder for Bioware to make more games later.

[atum]

I think "the people need me" is him referring to the Qunari invasion. He wanted to return to stop it so he took her power to gain the strength for it. He would have said "my people need me" if he was talking about the ancient elves.

 

He was talking to Mythal, she is one of "the people", he would not have said "my people".

 

Presumably, he took her soul because he failed to get his orb back and would not be able to complete his plan without additional "power".

[atum]

I'm going by what he said at the end of the DLC. He spent most of it trying to save the people by leading the Inquisition into the Qunari plot knowing they would win.

 

Oh, he said that in Trespasser?  I must have missed it.  Sorry.

 

It still seems like a stretch to imagine he took her soul to fight the Qunari.  He certainly has bigger plans that probably require even more power.  I got the impression he considered the Qunari nothing more than a footnote.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

He considered them all tranquil too until the quizzy started to change his mind.

 

You know, I did not pay that analogy much mind when he made it, but now that I think about it, it is a pretty reprehensible one -- as if to say the likes of Tranquil can be mistreated and used as pawns because they lack something. In this case, the "tranquil" are us. I never liked seeing people take advantage of them, and now I hate it even more because this whole affair just puts me in their shoes (not that I needed to see it this way to detest it).

[Bigdoser]

Also note whenever you punish a mage via tranquility solas approval takes a huge nosedive compared to Dorian. It all makes sense really. 

[MrObnoxiousUK]

The part where humans didn't do anything better when they moved in, with Tevinter slavery, exalted marches and many more injustices to this world.

So is Tevinter slavery better than Ancient Elven slavery then? Pretty sure the "Elven gods" were warring between each other with their followers killing each other that should count as their version of an ex-halted march . Let's be honest here, what the humans have done the Elves did first, GOOD and BAD.

[Heimdall]

You know, I did not pay that analogy much mind when he made it, but now that I think about it, it is a pretty reprehensible one -- as if to say the likes of Tranquil can be mistreated and used as pawns because they lack something. In this case, the "tranquil" are us. I never liked seeing people take advantage of them, and now I hate it even more because this whole affair just puts me in their shoes (not that I needed to see it this way to detest it).

I think you're misinterpreting his analogy.

He sees "us" like we see tranquil because we're incomplete people, missing something essential whose very absence makes it impossible to comprehend what we've lost. It's about his motivation. If you found a world populated entirely by tranquil, wouldn't you go to great lengths to restore everyone's emotions? That's his perspective.

[Ryzaki]

You know, I did not pay that analogy much mind when he made it, but now that I think about it, it is a pretty reprehensible one -- as if to say the likes of Tranquil can be mistreated and used as pawns because they lack something. In this case, the "tranquil" are us. I never liked seeing people take advantage of them, and now I hate it even more because this whole affair just puts me in their shoes (not that I needed to see it this way to detest it).

 

Yep it's pretty gross. See this is why if Solas confrontation is done without me being in control of quizzy I'm gonna be disappointed. This is something I need to be a driver in You can even call him on the "so we're just pawns?" and good grief Solas.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I think you're misinterpreting his analogy.

He sees "us" like we see tranquil because we're incomplete people, missing something essential whose very absence makes it impossible to comprehend what we've lost. It's about his motivation. If you found a world populated entirely by tranquil, wouldn't you go to great lengths to restore everyone's emotions? That's his perspective.

 

No I think I got it right, unfortunately. He is not planning to "restore" everyone that I can tell, but kill and replace them all with his ideal.

[geckocide]

I got very strong vibes that modern elves wouldn't be immune to whatever genocide Solas has planned - he and Abelas' interactions with a Dalish Inquisitor lampshade it so hard.

 

I hope that the Dalish are going to become much more important in the next game. We know from Fenris that the clans will be having an annual meeting soon, and certain choices can lead to not only a Dalish elf being the leader of one of the strongest military forces in the world, but their clan and keeper having joint rule of a human city - something that is a pretty big deal in a world where, even with the Inquisition's backing, an elf like Briala can't rule openly.

 

Infact I'm calling it: Dalish vs City Elves.

 

It would explain why there was no option for a city elf Inky. We know the Dalish look down on flat-ears, and they're treated like trash by everyone else. They're already using the eluvians as an elven underground, which Solas took control of. The Dread Wolf was a rebel figure and took the underclass elves of his time into his care, it would fit perfectly - only this time he's freeing slaves to use as patsies and cannon fodder instead.

 

The Dalish, on the other hand, hate and fear Fan'Harel, and when/if the truth outs that he was responsible for the decline of their civilisation I can't see them allying with him. Solas' revelations don't even full disprove their beliefs, imo, they have the gist of it right.

 

Not to mention there's still the issue of the MIA Flem/Mythal. We know that either Morrigan or the Inquisitor are in servitude to her, and Flemeth was pretty implicit in wanting to transfer her 'gift' of posession to her daughter. We still don't know if Flemythal's on board with Solas' plans; the wisp/soul whatever of the Dalish's Mother Godess coming out in opposition of their equivalent of the Devil would be a pretty big deal.

 

And finally, I'm going into pure tintoil territory here, but it's been speculated that Flemeth, Mythal and Andraste are all related and might possibly be the same person, or incarnations of them. Andraste was able to win the trust of the Elven slaves and promised them their own land. With the next game moving into Tevinter, could there possibly be an Andraste/Shartan duo 2.0? (I'd literally prostate at Bioware's feet for the rest of my life if the PC of the next game can be an elven slave and partner up with a Mythal-indentured pro-chantry Herald in DA4.)

 

Honestly, I think I'm just going to be disappointed as hell if the Dalish end up as the bad guys in DA4. I wouldn't mind the option to wipe out a clan or two, just for continuity, but seeing my favourite faction get pooped on again would make me sad.

[Guitar-Hero]

Yeah and a we have a scrawny bald elf who can turn armies of bulky muscled fighters into petrified stone with his mere eyes. Muscles won't win against Solas. You have to use Seeker training to reinforce reality and deny him his magical power.

Ill just wear my anti-petrification ring and call on the Power Rangers whilst riding a big dinosaur called Bobby.

[atum]

You have to exhaust the dialogue wheel lol

 

I think he cares about the people more than he wants to admit now. Cole says as much. He's conflicted and failed at hardening his heart at the end. I know he wants to remove the veil and had plans to deal with the false gods, but he said he wanted this world to have peace for a while before he did it.

 

 

I agree with most of what you are saying except you haven't shown any connection to needing Mythal's power for just the Qunari. Would he have even known about the Qunari at that point?  It probably can be assumed that the cutscene in DAI took place two years before the Qunari "invasion".  He even said that his spies "stumbled" upon the Qunari.

 

Anyways, I think maybe you are reading too much into a pronoun.  If he meant he wanted to save all people, why didnt he just say "people need me" instead of "the people need me"? Either way I don't see any evidence that his help with the Qunari was at all linked to taking Mythal's power.

 

 

Anyways, maybe I am missing the dialog, but I don't see it here:

[Dean_the_Young]

I think you're misinterpreting his analogy.

He sees "us" like we see tranquil because we're incomplete people, missing something essential whose very absence makes it impossible to comprehend what we've lost. It's about his motivation. If you found a world populated entirely by tranquil, wouldn't you go to great lengths to restore everyone's emotions? That's his perspective.
 

 

Sorry, but I'm not a fan of the whole 'kill the people who are content to put them out of their misery' line of thought.

 

Solas isn't out to restore everyone's 'emotions.' He's out to kill them by the millions.

[Lazarillo]

I think the conflict's still a little confusing, because it's a little confusing just who will die if Solas carries out his plans.  

 

Everyone?  I suppose it's possible...hypothetically, I guess, it wouldn't be impossible for a powerful enough Mage to literally create new life if inside the Fade, since their thoughts supposedly shape reality...but would those really be truly "real" individuals in that case? Or, at the very least, would they be any different from the common spirits we see?  Granted, Solas seems to be rather fond of spirits, but he seems to hold actual life in a different and special (if not necessarily inherently "better") regard, so that doesn't seem like it would be enough for him.

 

Non-elves?  Humans were very possibly a side-effect of the Veil's creation based on what Solas said (and we simply confused cause and effect), so they would presumably be gone...but Dwarves existed before then (albeit "soulless"...what an appropriate choice of words), and Kossith, well, we dunno about that one.  But modern Elves are still "like Tranquil" to him, and he didn't consider Lavellan "real" before their romance, either.  Plus, he is apparently inspiring a fair amount of following from other elves, to the point that I can't see that many mundanes joining up with him if they thought they were going to die as a result (even many of Corypheus' followers, knowing his ultimate goal, were expecting to benefit from him when he "ascended").  So will the Elves survive or not?

 

Non-mages?  It might be that anyone with magical talent might be okay, since they're already connected to and influence the Fade, existing with their feet across the line the Veil creates, so it might be that even humans and Qunari would survive the fusion of worlds (as would Dwarves, but would lose their souls and regress to what they were before, as above).

 

Actually, that's a point on the Dwarves, anyway.  Were they only "soulless" before the Veil, when minds were seen in a different fashion anyway?  It could be that modern Dwarves aren't too different from ancient Dwarves after all. 

[KaiserShep]

I think you're misinterpreting his analogy.

He sees "us" like we see tranquil because we're incomplete people, missing something essential whose very absence makes it impossible to comprehend what we've lost. It's about his motivation. If you found a world populated entirely by tranquil, wouldn't you go to great lengths to restore everyone's emotions? That's his perspective.

 

I think this really adds a lot to his being a total balls-to-the-wall madman. 

[Hellion Rex]

I stand with the people of Thedas, no question. Solas can go screw himself. If it will be our fate to die, then I'm sure as hell gonna make the bastard work for it.

[d1ta]

My protag is Dalish and although it hurts (really really HURTS) my protag will do whatever she can to try convince that Solas is wrong and stop his plans.

Sure, Elven Glory would be nice (a lifetime dream, in fact), but not when it's at the cost of genocide of many race. It's especially painful since she know that the majority of her people (modern day elves) would likely support Fenharel even knowingly they would die in the end. These are 'desperate with nothing to lose' kind of people: so long as there is no more oppression for the elves, then I'll pay it no matter the cost.
She understands them, their motivation and pain, the desire for 'freedom' (free from fear and have equal standing with any other race) but also have enough reasoning that you can't undo a mistake with an even bigger mistake.

My Lavellan suddenly finds herself in Dorian's shoes when they first set out to stop corypheus. I'm betting she's having a lot of time crying on the magister's shoulder (or ears, since now they have a telephone)

[PorcelynDoll]

I knew he was going to end up the villain the very first time I played the game. I always felt weird activating those orbs everywhere for him, like I was helping him in some way. He definitely wins Thedas' Scumbag of the Year award. I went from liking the guy to wanting to bash his head against a rock until it makes jam.