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Humans vs Elves: Stand up and be counted.


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#126
Dean_the_Young

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I'm just trying to provide some perspective on why the world the way it is horrifies him and he feels he needs to change it.

 

An important point of understanding Solas's perspective is not misrepresenting him. Solas is not out to help anyone of the modern era by 'restoring' them in any sense:

 

 

 

I'd love more clarity on that from him, because while letting the Fade pour into the world would create chaos and widespread destruction, effectively destroying the world as we know it, it can't kill everyone, otherwise what's the point? 

 

The point is that the descendants of whoever manages to survive will be magical, and the descendants of whatever elves survive will be super-magical, and he'll use them to recreate his envisioned better world.

 

It can kill 99.99% of all elves, but as long as the remainder are now immortal he'll 'win.'

 

 

 

In fairness to him though, he knows its a terrible thing, he just sees it as the only option that will undo the damage he caused.

 

 

 

Except, it doesn't undo the damage, and thinking it does is why he's insane.

 

The ancient elves who died are still dead. The ancient relics that were lost will still be gone. The culture is irreversably changed- in the people who will survive, in the ones who remember. Not even the Fade-memories can perfectly remember and restore.

 

The fairness due to Solas is not only is his ambition monstrous, but it's impossible. He can win in destroying the world, but he'll never be able to recreate the old as it was. No more than Corypheus would have been able to restore the Tevinter that was.


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#127
Patchwork

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I'm sure if the writers want it to happen then it will happen but if being part of the Inquisition and possibly falling in love didn't make Solas see Thedas' modern races as real people including the elves then what possibly could? 



#128
Reznore57

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I'm sure if the writers want it to happen then it will happen but if being part of the Inquisition and possibly falling in love didn't make Solas see Thedas' modern races as real people including the elves then what possibly could? 

 

Understanding monsters like the Creators were a logical ending of a world full of "magic".

You can't control this type of power, it's just too much.

It only took seven people to go power crazy , and they were about to destroy the world and there was no way to destroy them.NO WAY.

They weren't killed just banished somewhere.

 

Just let one Creator get loose and watch Solas unable to deal with it and there you go.

See Solas ; bad plan is bad.

Anyway Solas needs to face one of his peers , to realise what he has become.

I still have my finger crossed Mythal is not too far gone .She doesn't have much power left , but she may be the only sane powerful entity around.



#129
Fredward

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The egg has gone bad and needs to be gleefully smashed against a wall.

 

Even if we had the option to play an ancient elf what Solas is doing is the most ludicrous act of personal ego and racism that HAS EVER BEEN. It is completely indefensible from a moral PoV unless you subscribe to ancient elves being the only 'real' people and EVERYONE else being less than sub-human. It's intellectual swiss cheese unless you think Solas' godish status makes his opinions about superiority and 'worthiness' objective fact. He LEAPS the border from a kinda sad, deluded tragic figure who wants to make up for his mistakes and lands squarely in narcissistic lunatic egg land.

 

There is nothing okay with his plans. At all. Not even a little. Unless you subscribe to some fundamental and alarming ideology. Or are deluded like his elven followers are. I might try to save the latter but the former needs to be expunged.


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#130
Mevanna

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I guess this makes me the first who stands up to be counted firmly on the side of the elves? ^^

I'm slightly sad that that is not actually an option in the game. I mean, I can see why, because any future story writing would become hell if your Inquisitor can potentially be on the side of the antagonist. (especially since the ending kinda makes it look like they'll continue to be around at the very least as an ally of any future protagonist)

Still, it makes an elven Inquisitor feel like a right dork if all the elves are rallying to their people's cause, and you're left behind with the humans.

 

I know there is the whole genocide thing and all, but... well. For one, it's not specifically said that everyone will die. As far as I can tell, modern elves are not biologically different from ancient ones, so they should be able to connect to the Fade without dying. We don't really know what opening the Veil will do to people, or why it would be so destructive.

It might just be that because everyone believes the Fade to be an evil place full of demons, that is exactly what it will be, and only once everyone who believes it to be so is dead can it become anything else. In that case, Solas rallying the elves might actually be an attempt to save them - teach them not to believe the Fade to be hostile and it won't be, sort of thing. 

 

At any rate, I don't really think Solas can be blamed for thinking the way he does. To him, a world severed from the Fade is obviously a broken one, and he's just trying to heal it. He broke it, he has to fix it, makes sense.

The Tranquil analogy is really quite a good one. Everyone wants to restore the Tranquil's emotions because what was done to them was cruel and wrong. Still, we have to face the fact that restoring their emotions would likely kill the vast majority of them, because they're so over-emotional and unable to control themselves that they're just an Abomination waiting to happen.

If you ask a Tranquil whether they want themselves restored, they'll say no, because it's too dangerous and they're content the way they are. If you ask everyone else, a lot of people (especially everyone who read Anders' manifesto xD) would want to see them all restored regardless, because they consider Tranquility to be so terribly wrong that even death would still be better.

Then consider that Solas is one of the latter people, and finds himself in an entire world populated by Tranquil. You can't really blame him for being horrified and wanting to undo it, despite the damage it would cause.

 

That said, I'm not too sure about his plan. He does have a history of badly-thought-out plans. And if, as he says, he has a way to deal with the Evanuris (while still removing the Veil), then... why didn't he just use that in the first place and avoid destroying his world altogether?

 

Another reason to take Solas' side in this might be because it looks like the world is going to get destroyed sooner or later anyway.

As Solas mentions in a piece of banter with Blackwall, the world kind of lives on the assumption that when all the Archdemons are dead, the Blights will end for good. Solas considers that assumption silly, and it is probably safe to assume that once the last Archdemon falls, the Darkspawn will not just disappear. So the only reason the world is reasonably safe from them at the moment is because they're spending all their time digging for Archdemons. This gives Thedas all of two blights' worth of time before the Darkspawn go on an uncontrolled rampage and likely destroy the entire world, because while you can sort of fight off darkspawn armies, there isn't any real way to stop the Taint from spreading. 

 

So, you know, maybe Solas has a point when he says that destroying the world to bring back Elvhenan is the only way. The Darkspawn corruption does originate from the Fade, so maybe whatever Solas is planning might put an end to it.

At any rate, while he may be quite arrogant and zealous at times, he does show a lot of compassion and wisdom throughout the game. If you earn his friendship and possibly love, he has a lot of very good reasons to abandon his plans of destruction, and he does make it quite clear in Trespasser that he wishes he could. That does kind of imply that there is a good reason he keeps doing what he does despite all it costs him and everyone else. We may not understand Solas' reasons, but he knows a lot of things we don't, so perhaps a little trust is in order.

 

Also, since people seem to have been bringing it up, just clearing this up: "The People" is just a translation of "Elvhen". He is still talking about ancient elves there, despite not saying "My people". And anyway, it would be kind of weird to say "mine" when he's talking to Mythal.


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#131
Sjofn

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There is nothing okay with his plans. At all. Not even a little. Unless you subscribe to some fundamental and alarming ideology. Or are deluded like his elven followers are. I might try to save the latter but the former needs to be expunged.

 

I wouldn't be too hard on his followers just yet. Solas is a lying liar who lies when it gets him his way, there is zero reason to believe he isn't telling these guys, "Hey, join my cause and we'll restore the elves to their former glory!" without letting them read the fine print that says "which, by the way, doesn't mean YOU, you're cheap knock-off elves." If he has an inner circle, they might be nihilist true believers, but I think the bulk of those elves are desperate for the chance of maybe not getting crapped on any more and being used.

 

Which makes Solas even more of a villain, but there you are.


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#132
Fredward

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At any rate, I don't really think Solas can be blamed for thinking the way he does. To him, a world severed from the Fade is obviously a broken one, and he's just trying to heal it. He broke it, he has to fix it, makes sense.

The Tranquil analogy is really quite a good one. Everyone wants to restore the Tranquil's emotions because what was done to them was cruel and wrong. Still, we have to face the fact that restoring their emotions would likely kill the vast majority of them, because they're so over-emotional and unable to control themselves that they're just an Abomination waiting to happen.

If you ask a Tranquil whether they want themselves restored, they'll say no, because it's too dangerous and they're content the way they are. If you ask everyone else, a lot of people (especially everyone who read Anders' manifesto xD) would want to see them all restored regardless, because they consider Tranquility to be so terribly wrong that even death would still be better.

Then consider that Solas is one of the latter people, and finds himself in an entire world populated by Tranquil. You can't really blame him for being horrified and wanting to undo it, despite the damage it would cause.

 

If he kept it to thinking maybe not. But he doesn't. So I can most assuredly blame him. And do. Vehemently. And no the Tranquil example doesn't really work since people without magic fundamentally aren't Tranquil as we know them. They might be tranquil as Solas and his ilk know them but so? HE sees a problem, not the people themselves. They live perfectly happy and fulfilling lives. Just not according to him AND! It's tangential to his primary issue. Which is restoring the elves. His elves. He doesn't even really consider anyone else people, having them be 'fixed' for a short while before they die is a 'pleasing side-benefit' but if that didn't happen he'd be doing it anyway since it's all about fixing his mistake to salve his conscience.

 

Ugh. Just thinking about this works me up. What really gets me isn't the killing of everyone or the racism or even the fetishizing of the past, it's the fact that a person can have such an inflated opinion of their own personal relevance in the broader scheme of existence that they would literally destroy everything and everyone so that they can feel better about themselves. The mind. It boggles.

 

Every time I see him in the game now I want to punch him in his stupid crotch.


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#133
karushna5

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I don't know, just because something you believe has internal consistency, that doesn't seem like it puts you above blame. Most people  act under things that seem logical to them and even the "right" thing. In fact I would say a huge part of politics/ideology/layman science is about finding and supporting the things that give your feelings credence.

 

What he is doing is still wrong, and still blameworthy. What he is planning is evil, he is practicing evil. I don't think lacking the usual villains nonsensical motivations suddenly makes him above blame. In fact, I could hold him to it harder than the darkspawn/Corypheus or the Reapers who have an alien mindset that is made physical.

 

I would consider Solas the most evil villain we have yet to face, because he is capable of evil instead of born or made to be so beyond his control. The fact he can rationalize his guilt means nothing to his blame. 


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#134
Sjofn

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Ex-Tranquil are not abominations waiting to happen, by the way. Seekers are, after all, immune to possession ... because they are ex-Tranquil.



#135
KaiserShep

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At any rate, I don't really think Solas can be blamed for thinking the way he does. 

 

Oooh yes he can. Solas is total bat-guano mad, and despite helping the Inquisitor, is still kind of an elfhole, and if he can't listen to reason, I will do whatever the game(s) will allow so I can mount his head on a pike to let everyone know that supervillainy will only end in becoming a gruesome hood ornament. 


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#136
Andreas Amell

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The ancient elves who died are still dead. The ancient relics that were lost will still be gone. The culture is irreversably changed- in the people who will survive, in the ones who remember. Not even the Fade-memories can perfectly remember and restore.

 

I wonder if that's true. Now that all remaining Eluvians are unlocked I wonder if some ancient elves had fled to other dimensions before the collapse. Also Flemeth has been teaching her daughters to preserve old magic, so who knows what they've already saved. 



#137
Reznore57

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Yeah Solas is kind of evil.

I mean all the "I feelz so much guilt " about it doesn't change the fact.

He will kill numerous people , go full genocide , for a few remaining elite.

People of Thedas are abominations that must be purged to him.The fact that those people lived and surfered through his mistake and managed to keep on is worth nothing.

 

He's thousand of years old , he could just die and leave people have a choice and a chance to build their lives.

But no , without him noticing , Godhood went to his head .He is now the one above everyone , calling the shots.

He became the Gods he hated and wanted to overthrow .

 

That's sad.Anyway I don't want to kill him.

But he's beyond repair for sure.Hell the explosion at Haven?He wanted it to happen.The only thing that went wrong is Corypheus didn't die.

Let's hope he sacrifices himself fighting a Creator or something.Jeez.


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#138
Andreas Amell

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Oooh yes he can. Solas is total bat-guano mad, and despite helping the Inquisitor, is still kind of an elfhole, and if he can't listen to reason, I will do whatever the game(s) will allow so I can mount his head on a pike to let everyone know that supervillainy will only end in becoming a gruesome hood ornament. 

If only writers had this attitude in superhero comics. We wouldn't keep having villains like Lex Luthor or Magneto thrown at us. 

 

Truly. Not only should they just get killed they shouldn't be glorified as untouchable three-dimensional anti-heroes. Thank goodness Bioware is giving us stories where we can reach our own endings.



#139
Darkstarr11

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I also agree that this is more of an 'Ancient Elves vs Everyone Else' thing.  Remember, Solas doesn't seem to believe that the current elves, city OR Dalish are 'his people'.  Considering that he just took a rocket sled ride off the slippery slope, I'm not betting on ANYONE surviving what he has planned.  So even my Lavellan who loved him is opposed to him.  She's become disillusioned with the Creators and has a lot of non-elf friends.  Plus, no promises that she and her clan live through his decidedly epically INSANE plan of yanking the Veil away and letting TWO worlds slam into each other.  BTW, since this has never (maybe) been done before, there are NO guarantees that this won't just destroy everything and everyone.  I mean, so far, his 'plans' seem to have a high failure rate...


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#140
Dean_the_Young

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Ex-Tranquil are not abominations waiting to happen, by the way. Seekers are, after all, immune to possession ... because they are ex-Tranquil.

 

Seekers are also mundanes, and the Seeker ritual ®enforces discipline they were chosen for.

 

Whereas we know that ex-tranquil mages are extremely emotionally volatile, and most tranquil are mages who weren't trusted to be emotionally strong enough to resist demons in the first place, hence the tranquility.



#141
Dean_the_Young

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I wonder if that's true. Now that all remaining Eluvians are unlocked I wonder if some ancient elves had fled to other dimensions before the collapse. Also Flemeth has been teaching her daughters to preserve old magic, so who knows what they've already saved. 

 

Whether some ancient elves did or not is irrelevant. Most did not. Nearly all have died, and their descendants were enslaved, conquered, subjugated, and otherwise assimilated (or invented) new cultures.

 

Even if it was Solas and five thousand Ancient Elves, they would not be the same culture as the one that he seeks to return. The Ancient Elven Culture was not, and never had been, a product of the fall of civilization and re-rise on the graves of all others.



#142
Andreas Amell

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Whether some ancient elves did or not is irrelevant. Most did not. Nearly all have died, and their descendants were enslaved, conquered, subjugated, and otherwise assimilated (or invented) new cultures.

 

Even if it was Solas and five thousand Ancient Elves, they would not be the same culture as the one that he seeks to return. The Ancient Elven Culture was not, and never had been, a product of the fall of civilization and re-rise on the graves of all others.

Yes, but if there are ancient Elves who fled to other dimensions they may have an opnion or knowledge that could aide the fight against Solas. If the civil war was that bad, there might have been other factions who supported neither the Evanuris or the Dread Wolf. They could have hid like those ancient aliens who created the Reapers in Mass Effect 3. 



#143
Dean_the_Young

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Yes, but if there are ancient Elves who fled to other dimensions they may have an opnion or knowledge that could aide the fight against Solas. If the civil war was that bad, there might have been other factions who supported neither the Evanuris or the Dread Wolf. Think of them as those ancient aliens who created the Reapers in Mass Effect 3. 

 

What does that have to do with you quoted from me, then?

 

What you quoted was a point about the impossibility of restoring the ancient civilization as it once was. You framed your response as a disagreement, or doubt, but I'm not seeing a relevance to what you quoted.



#144
norealer

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I still have my finger crossed Mythal is not too far gone .She doesn't have much power left , but she may be the only sane powerful entity around.

 

Mythal usually seems like a reasonable being. She's been around Thedas for hundreds of years and managed not to destroy it. She even has positive and proud remarks about Lavellan'a achievement (making the people proud and such), but then she also has that hysterical speech (I was betrayed as she was betrayed as the world was betrayed). Her plan which is "a reckoning that will shake the very heavens" does sound like she may need her murderers to be released so she can have her revenge. Maybe Solas is just another one of her pawns.


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#145
Katebe94

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I also agree that this is more of an 'Ancient Elves vs Everyone Else' thing.  Remember, Solas doesn't seem to believe that the current elves, city OR Dalish are 'his people'.  Considering that he just took a rocket sled ride off the slippery slope, I'm not betting on ANYONE surviving what he has planned.  So even my Lavellan who loved him is opposed to him.  She's become disillusioned with the Creators and has a lot of non-elf friends.  Plus, no promises that she and her clan live through his decidedly epically INSANE plan of yanking the Veil away and letting TWO worlds slam into each other.  BTW, since this has never (maybe) been done before, there are NO guarantees that this won't just destroy everything and everyone.  I mean, so far, his 'plans' seem to have a high failure rate...

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's one of the many, many things that makes Solas and his plans so nightmarishly compelling and bittersweet. All those elves we see in the epilogue going off to join him? They're actually working to orchestrate their own deaths. They, like everyone else, are being manipulated to further ends that are not their own. And Solas is fully aware of this - it pains him, but he is quite literally willing to sacrifice anyone because he believes it's necessary. 

 

It reminds me of the ending of the Masked Empire -the mysterious entity we now know is Solas  kills an agent, Felassan, heavily implied to be another ancient elf, after he refuses to take control of the eluvian network from Briala. Felassan says to Solas that the people of this era are 'stronger' than Solas thought; it's implied he thought that Briala should have a chance of fixing this world rather than wiping it out. So Solas, regretfully... kills him. 

 

Ah, THE FEELS!


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#146
TobiTobsen

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Solas is cray-cray. I'm not sure if he's got the memo but the things behind the veil are not all rainbows and benevolent spirits. Isn't he seeing what lurks behind the veil or is he just not giving a crap? Stuff like Nightmare in the real world? Have fun kids!

 

Merging the real world with Fade is just like merging the real world with the Immaterium from 40k or the real world with Australia and it's wild life. Unhealthy for everybody!

**** will go down because of some demented elf and his raging "Back in my days" boner.


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#147
themageguy

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I wonder how many elves will rebel against Solas.

We know he is dangerous and will eliminate those who don't follow - look at Felassan.

I wonder what Fenris would think of the dread wolf?

The people he is wanting to save....im not sure whether he.truly incorporates all elven or not, especially non-mages as they haven't retained a connection to the Fade.

Also, he has a.plan for the evanuris when he destroys the veil? Sorry bud but your plans seem to have problems ie Corypheus and the orb, and the whole sundering his people from the fade.

#148
Arakat

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I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's one of the many, many things that makes Solas and his plans so nightmarishly compelling and bittersweet. All those elves we see in the epilogue going off to join him? They're actually working to orchestrate their own deaths. They, like everyone else, are being manipulated to further ends that are not their own. And Solas is fully aware of this - it pains him, but he is quite literally willing to sacrifice anyone because he believes it's necessary. 

 

It reminds me of the ending of the Masked Empire -the mysterious entity we now know is Solas  kills an agent, Felassan, heavily implied to be another ancient elf, after he refuses to take control of the eluvian network from Briala. Felassan says to Solas that the people of this era are 'stronger' than Solas thought; it's implied he thought that Briala should have a chance of fixing this world rather than wiping it out. So Solas, regretfully... kills him. 

 

Ah, THE FEELS!

 

I think Cole refers to Felassan when he says something like "he had to die because he saw them as people" in one of his ambient lines during Trespasser. That line gave me goosebumps.


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#149
Reznore57

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Mythal usually seems like a reasonable being. She's been around Thedas for hundreds of years and managed not to destroy it. She even has positive and proud remarks about Lavellan'a achievement (making the people proud and such), but then she also has that hysterical speech (I was betrayed as she was betrayed as the world was betrayed). Her plan which is "a reckoning that will shake the very heavens" does sound like she may need her murderers to be released so she can have her revenge. Maybe Solas is just another one of her pawns.

 

Well I think Mythal just like the other "Gods" has the whole Godhood problem of having an ego bigger than the sun.

So she wants justice for herself now .

 

But still I have hopes , she was a Goddess representing motherhood and protection.Even if she was sometimes a fury , it is said she was always fair even in revenge.

And yes she calls current elves "The People".She's nice to Merrill and Lavellan.

When you ask why she isn't helping elves she says "You do not know what you ask.What was done cannot be changed."So maybe....maybe she got over the fall of Elvanhan and accepted her fall from grace and the fall from grace of The People.

She knows she's just a shadow of her former self.

 

I hope her protective instinct will kick in , and she will stand for thedas and its current people ,elves or not.



#150
themageguy

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I think Cole refers to Felassan when he says something like "he had to die because he saw them as people" in one of his ambient lines during Trespasser. That line gave me goosebumps.


And something about the slow arrow being in the jaws of the wolf? Both creepy.

I liked felassan. And he died cause he could see what Solas could not accept.
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