250 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

Pretty much. Never take the oxmen at their word. They're all Hissrad as far as I'm concerned.

Oxman=/= Qunari

[PeterOrtiz]

I just hope im future DA games, I have a chance to take it to the Qun. There whole cult really rubs me the wrong way. Its way to crypto fascist for my liking. I was really hoping the Chantry would not recover as it did and the Inquisition put an end to this whole "Maker" nonsense.

[The Baconer]

You propose to revive and kill them again, after Solas wrecked them all? That's a bit harsh, even for Qunari.

 

That wasn't the case at the time the letter was written/sent, and you knew that.

[Lunatic Lace]

I looked, but might have missed it. If you didn't do Iron Bull's quest in the main game, so he's still a member of the Qunari and the Chargers are still alive, does anything happen with them after you kill him? Is there a slide or anything at the end?

[vertigomez]

Lol @ qunari "alliance"

Alistair: "So I suppose once I'm actually king I could end up in negotiations with the Qunari one day."
Sten: "My people do not negotiate."
Alistair: "What do you mean? They negotiated a peace treaty after the war, and as far as I know they've kept to its terms."
Sten: "They signed a piece of paper. But only because they knew that you believed in it."
Alistair: "And what is the difference between that and negotiating?"
Sten: "They stopped fighting for their own reasons. And they will resume it again, one day. The agreement means nothing to them."
Alistair: "But I thought you said your people believed in honor."
Sten: "They do. The honor of the Qunari is what will bring our warships back to your shores."

[Drasanil]

Lol @ qunari "alliance"

Alistair: "So I suppose once I'm actually king I could end up in negotiations with the Qunari one day."
Sten: "My people do not negotiate."
Alistair: "What do you mean? They negotiated a peace treaty after the war, and as far as I know they've kept to its terms."
Sten: "They signed a piece of paper. But only because they knew that you believed in it."
Alistair: "And what is the difference between that and negotiating?"
Sten: "They stopped fighting for their own reasons. And they will resume it again, one day. The agreement means nothing to them."
Alistair: "But I thought you said your people believed in honor."
Sten: "They do. The honor of the Qunari is what will bring our warships back to your shores."

 

Which is why I pick it every time now. Die Iron Cow, die

[Hazegurl]

Thing is, metagaming may destroy the choice, but in itself, if you think about it... Why wouldn't you, as the inquisition, want a powerful ally like the Qunari? That's worth much more than one band. And srue, through metagaming you know it doesn't work out that way, but that's false knowledge. You should always look at your choice with the information you have at hand. And then I choose a Qunari alliance anytime.

I agree, When facing the possible end of the world.

 

Qunari Military Force and Dreadnaughts > Band of barely competent soldiers.

 

"Allying" with the Qunari is a good idea for the situation because if all else fails and the South falls to Cory, at least another force can be prepared to take him down, even if it results in the survivors being indoctrinated into the Qun.  If we go by the knowledge we have ingame vs metagame.  The IQ has no idea if he/she will even win, and the price of losing is a world filled with demons.  I would think that a Qun dominated world would be the least of Thedas's problems. 

 

I personally think that IB's personal quest should have been locked to any player who expresses hate, mistrust, et al toward the Qun.  I see no reason why a Qun hating IQ would waste their time and resources  even trying to set up an alliance they know for a fact they will not go through with anyway.  So locking the quest based on early PC dialogue choices would have been the best move.

 

Of course it should still result in IB betraying them.   In this scenario the IQ gets to keep the Chargers but don't have access to any Qunari intel as IB (as confused and wavering as he may be) decides to remain loyal to the Qun.

 

But overall, the choice is pointless as you beat Cory like a rented mule at every turn and the "alliance" turns out to a bunch of stupid war table missions.

 

IB's betrayal is probably the only worthwhile reason to choose the alliance. 

[IRON SKORPIQN]

There is no "Right" or "Wrong" just like in the real world... Only what YOU can, and cannot do. 

 

 

 

I love the Qunari, they make so much sense to me and at the same time are so difficult to swallow. There are things like their disposition towards magic and mages (Saarebas) that i just can't stand but at the same time they're this amazing people, who take in all sorts and find a place for you. 

 

When i started my first playthrough and saw i could be Qunari (Vashoth) i was extremely excited, more so when i met (Iron Bull) and started speaking Qunari to him... only to be somewhat taken aback when Bull told me i wasn't Qunari. I physically felt rejected as a PLAYER. I was so pissed, but persued it to learn more of "My People" the Qunari as a Tal'Vashoth. I didn't like that i couldn't choose to be 1 or the other. When i was made INQUISITOR i declared for the QUNARI people! I decorated Skyhold in Qunari everything AND i sacrificed the CHARGERS (I didn't enjoy it) for the greater good, to hopefully make an Alliance with the QUN if only just for myself, to learn more about where i come from, where i belong? A handful of Merc Chargers for 100 Qunari Sailors i found out in Tresspasser.... but i was bitter in Tresspasser... I thought Videsalla was awesome EXCEPT for the magic/mage hating stuff and when Bull turned his back on me for his people... i was both devestated but pleased at the same time. Devastated not because he left me for them, but because i couldn't go with him.

 

This is what BioWare does, they create amazing characters and evolve them. Those bored with old characters and constantly want new characters don't understand this. You might think you know all there is to know about someone, then just like that... they change, they grow, they evolve and they can shatter your world.

 

I hope to see STEN in DA4. He is by far the greatest Qunari... so Stoic, So Philisophical & a mountain of muscle to boot!

[Ryzaki]

I personally think that IB's personal quest should have been locked to any player who expresses hate, mistrust, et al toward the Qun.  I see no reason why a Qun hating IQ would waste their time and resources  even trying to set up an alliance they know for a fact they will not go through with anyway.  So locking the quest based on early PC dialogue choices would have been the best move.

 

Uh no. Even if you dislike the Qun there's nothing saying you wouldn't work with them to meet a common goal. The Qun doesn't think much of the south either. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's there.

 

My Qun hating Tal Vasoth picked up Iron Bull because this was the Qunari's blatant attempt at putting a spy in her ranks. She rather the enemy she knows as it were. She went to ally with the Qun because she saw a chance for a gain even if she had to work with them. After she saw their idea of an alliance (not telling her jack squat, not giving her any input) and that she saw they expected her to pay the price for their fumblings she shrugged and decided that no such an alliance wasn't worth her time. She did give them the chance to prove themselves worthwhile and they failed.

[Bigdoser]

Uh no. Even if you dislike the Qun there's nothing saying you wouldn't work with them to meet a common goal. The Qun doesn't think much of the south either. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's there.

 

My Qun hating Tal Vasoth picked up Iron Bull because this was the Qunari's blatant attempt at putting a spy in her ranks. She rather the enemy she knows as it were. She went to ally with the Qun because she saw a chance for a gain even if she had to work with them. After she saw their idea of an alliance (not telling her jack squat, not giving her any input) and that she saw they expected her to pay the price for their fumblings she shrugged and decided that no such an alliance wasn't worth her time. She did give them the chance to prove themselves worthwhile and they failed.

Yup same reason why I picked the chargers. 

[Beren Von Ostwick]

I personally think that IB's personal quest should have been locked to any player who expresses hate, mistrust, et al toward the Qun.  I see no reason why a Qun hating IQ would waste their time and resources  even trying to set up an alliance they know for a fact they will not go through with anyway.  So locking the quest based on early PC dialogue choices would have been the best move.

 

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Do you really think the the USA and USSR allied in WWII because they had such mutual respect and admiration for one another?  Of course not.  It was an alliance of convenience against a common enemy.

 

ETA:  @Hazegurl.  Upon re-reading my post, I realize the "do you really..." line could have come across as snarky.  I apologize and assure you I didn't mean it as such.  I was just trying to provide a different point of view.

Modifié par Beren Erchamion, 25 septembre 2015 - 05:02 .

[Cobra's_back]

Personally, I like playing both options killing Iron Bull or keeping him. IF I could change things, I would love the following:

• The option to hunt and find the internal spy which would be Iron Bull. Afterwards, we can get a party bluff against the Qunari. That would have been fun. 

The game has it setup like the Inquisition made the mistake. Why wouldn't my spymaster suspect Iron Bull, and why wouldn't we try to use it to our advantage?

[BSpud]

Uh no. Even if you dislike the Qun there's nothing saying you wouldn't work with them to meet a common goal. The Qun doesn't think much of the south either. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's there.

 

My Qun hating Tal Vasoth picked up Iron Bull because this was the Qunari's blatant attempt at putting a spy in her ranks. She rather the enemy she knows as it were. She went to ally with the Qun because she saw a chance for a gain even if she had to work with them. After she saw their idea of an alliance (not telling her jack squat, not giving her any input) and that she saw they expected her to pay the price for their fumblings she shrugged and decided that no such an alliance wasn't worth her time. She did give them the chance to prove themselves worthwhile and they failed.

 

Exactly.  I was testing THEM out. They failed. This idea that the onus for a potential alliance not working out is on the Inq only is silly.

[mickymax69]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Do you really think the the USA and USSR allied in WWII because they had such mutual respect and admiration for one another?  Of course not.  It was an alliance of convenience against a common enemy.

 

Yes that's a good exemple!

and the problem to ally USSR (Qun) you have to sacrifice UK (the charge),

So a lot of people choose to sacrifice Uk to have " temporary benefit " knowing the qunari alliance will finish like a boomerang right in their face...soon or later,but probably very soon.

Trespasser has shown me I'm right,  they come offering alliance to the inquisition  cause they had an idea behind the head.

 

But the real problem of why I'm writing here is not because of this cornelian choice and make eternal polemic, but how the choice was bring to us, and that's the problem :

We would never have to choose instead of Bull!

like a children we have to take his hand, that's not make sense to me.

Bull  giving us his choice, we had to choose only after, what we would save because we're the inquisitor. (our responsability is there)

The betrayal would have been built based on this potential antagonism.

 

Personnally Iron Bull was tal-Vashoth in my story and luckily I did not take him with me on the crucial mission, so I had a happy ending!

[Ariella]

Exactly.  I was testing THEM out. They failed. This idea that the onus for a potential alliance not working out is on the Inq only is silly.

Amen. It was a bad plan. A horrible plan. One ship? What's one ship going to do? They then just shift operations somewhere else. If the plan was to take the source, I might go with the Qun, but one ship is spit on a griddle. Spending lives for that is foolish.

I've said before, I half think this was a test of Bull to see if he'd truly gone native or not. See if he was willing to make the sacrifice, when he KNOWS it means crap in the end.

[ShadowLordXII]

Though my vashoth inquisitor always picks the Chargers just to flick off the Qun (he hates the Qun), I wish that there was a possibility for a snarky response to Bull's betrayal.

 

Iron Bull: Good call leaving me behind. The viddasala asked me to lend a hand, though. (Takes out weapon) Nothing personal bas.

 

Adaar: (Takes out weapon) I'm surprised that it took you so long to show your true colors, Hissrad.

 

Iron Bull: Again, a good call...you never trusted me from the start.

 

Adaar: Nothing personal. You just don't trust Qunari.

[straykat]

I'd rather just not recruit him at all than this. That way he can live under the Qun (if that's where he's at in life), without getting killed.

 

Otherwise, Bull is best there as a joke character. Except, I don't care for this either personally. It's just the best of my options.

[Arvaarad]

Iron Bull is really weird from a game mechanics perspective. The more you engage with him, the more people have to die. Recruit him -> unavoidable death toll of 1 or more. Do his quest -> unavoidable death toll of 7 or more. Worst possible outcome is sacrificing the dreadnought, then not being friends with him, for a total of 103 dead (100 on the dreadnought + "ebost issala tal-vashoth!" + Iron Bull). Best possible outcome is never recruiting him, for 0 deaths.

It puts a new spin on his Breach character trailer, the way his face falls. It isn't just about demons.



The Inquisition will disrupt the happy balance he's achieved between the Chargers and the Qun, and he knows it.

I don't mind Iron Bull as a person. He's doing his job. But I want to do at least one playthrough where I never recruit him, and he gets to have the best outcome.

[Nixou]

I don't mind Iron Bull as a person. He's doing his job. But I want to do at least one playthrough where I never recruit him, and he gets to have the best outcome.

 

 

Now that you mention it, to have this outcome implemented in DA4 would make for an interesting twist, with a still loyal to the Qun Bull being involved in the story if that choice was made.

[SweetTeaholic]

I don't mind Iron Bull as a person. He's doing his job. But I want to do at least one playthrough where I never recruit him, and he gets to have the best outcome. 

 

 

The thing is: he doesn't get a good outcome if he sticks with the Qun; even if you don't recruit him. Being in the end, the Qun destroys him. It already did when he was in Sehron and he felt as he needed to be 'fixed' and go to the re educators.

 

Let me repeat: He had to be brainwashed in order to keep going!!

 

Along the Qunari still have some leash on Bull; he never gets a happy ending being they know the Chargers are becoming more important to him that the teachings he goes by. Even if he doesn't join the Inquisition; what's not saying the Ben Hassrath find a way to take the Chargers out of the picture some otherway? He could be called back to Seharon possibly or even find a way to cut ties from them. What if they even order Bull to kill them with his own hands?

 

...And the sad thing about that is that he would follow that order; even if it kills him doing so. All his friends in the past died for the Qun. Are you telling me that letting others die for the same reason is a happy outcome?

 

Even his old Tamarssan is happy he became Tal Vashoth if that's the path you give him. Yes, those people on the Dreadnought didn't deserve to die neither but they aren't even people to the Qun. They're just a cog in the machine. There wants and needs aren't important and neither is Bull's.

 

Also to mention: This was a Ben Hassrath mission; NOT a Inquisition one. They invited the Inquisitor along to hopefully secure some sort of 'alliance' which wasn't even much of one to begin with being they only wanted to do things there way and any of the Inquisitor's feedback was shut down. That's not an alliance!

 

So being this was a Ben Hassrath operation, shouldn't the fault be put on them for things they purposely had go to hell? 

 

The Qunari don't half-ass things; they plan them down to the exact detail. They planned the mission to go to hell so that Bull would have to choose one or the other. It was a test for Bull (as well as the Inquisitor) whether he's still Qunari or not.

 

They didn't care for anyone's well being, weither it being the Inquisition's or their own

[zambingo]

The Scorpion and the Frog (or Turtle)

The Qun is the Scorpion and the Frog is anyone thinking they are on good terms with it, without actually converting to it. Reversely the Qunari would likely see themselves as the Frog, with the Scorpion being anyone they are "friends" with but haven't converted.

[Ariella]

The Scorpion and the Frog (or Turtle)
The Qun is the Scorpion and the Frog is anyone thinking they are on good terms with it, without actually converting to it. Reversely the Qunari would likely see themselves as the Frog, with the Scorpion being anyone they are "friends" with but haven't converted.

I've always heard this one as the fox and the scorpion, but yeah, right on the head.

[Arvaarad]

The thing is: he doesn't get a good outcome if he sticks with the Qun; even if you don't recruit him. Being in the end, the Qun destroys him. It already did when he was in Sehron and he felt as he needed to be 'fixed' and go to the re educators.

Let me repeat: He had to be brainwashed in order to keep going!!

Along the Qunari still have some leash on Bull; he never gets a happy ending being they know the Chargers are becoming more important to him that the teachings he goes by. Even if he doesn't join the Inquisition; what's not saying the Ben Hassrath find a way to take the Chargers out of the picture some otherway? He could be called back to Seharon possibly or even find a way to cut ties from them. What if they even order Bull to kill them with his own hands?

...And the sad thing about that is that he would follow that order; even if it kills him doing so. All his friends in the past died for the Qun. Are you telling me that letting others die for the same reason is a happy outcome?

Even his old Tamarssan is happy he became Tal Vashoth if that's the path you give him. Yes, those people on the Dreadnought didn't deserve to die neither but they aren't even people to the Qun. They're just a cog in the machine. There wants and needs aren't important and neither is Bull's.

Also to mention: This was a Ben Hassrath mission; NOT a Inquisition one. They invited the Inquisitor along to hopefully secure some sort of 'alliance' which wasn't even much of one to begin with being they only wanted to do things there way and any of the Inquisitor's feedback was shut down. That's not an alliance!

So being this was a Ben Hassrath operation, shouldn't the fault be put on them for things they purposely had go to hell?

The Qunari don't half-ass things; they plan them down to the exact detail. They planned the mission to go to hell so that Bull would have to choose one or the other. It was a test for Bull (as well as the Inquisitor) whether he's still Qunari or not.

They didn't care for anyone's well being, weither it being the Inquisition's or their own

There's no guarantee of any of that. Without joining the Inquisition, he might never have reached a crisis point where the Ben-Hassrath felt his loyalty needed testing. Sure, they were probably getting suspicious, but they might never have gotten around to acting on it. They have loads of other plates spinning. For all their philosophy, they're still a large organization who can't keep track of everything at once. If the Inquisition never recruits him, he isn't as famous/on everyone's mind.

What I do know for certain: the moment I recruit Bull, I'm dooming anywhere from 1, 7, 102, or 103 people to death. As soon as I do his quest, I lose the option of losing only Bull, and my options are between killing 7, 102, or 103 people.

My inquisitors have varied opinions on this, but to me, it seems better to let the Chargers do their thing on their own. Anything can happen - for all we know, failing the mission to get close to the inquisitor could serve the same purpose as the dreadnought mission, and give him that final push toward being Tal-Vashoth.

At least there are options, possibilities of a happy ending, rather than the guaranteed deaths that happen if he joins up.

[Illegitimus]

I just hope im future DA games, I have a chance to take it to the Qun. There whole cult really rubs me the wrong way. Its way to crypto fascist for my liking. I was really hoping the Chantry would not recover as it did and the Inquisition put an end to this whole "Maker" nonsense.

 

Which is an utterly ridiculous hope.  The only thing that would end this "nonsense" is to provide them with a religion they would find more compelling, and I'm sure you'd just love that.  

 

 

What I do know for certain: the moment I recruit Bull, I'm dooming anywhere from 1, 7, 102, or 103 people to death. As soon as I do his quest, I lose the option of losing only Bull, and my options are between killing 7, 102, or 103 people.
 

 

As long as you ignore the people you use the Chargers to save.  

[Arvaarad]

As long as you ignore the people you use the Chargers to save.  

 

Did they have any missions where they saved people? I recall most of their war table missions being about reconnaissance and cleanup, but I'm probably forgetting something.