250 réponses à ce sujet

[Uirebhiril]

Well, at least for me now there is a clear good choice, and that is making The Bull Tal Vashoth. It doesn´t make sense to let the Chargers die now that we know that The Iron Bull will betray you if you choose that option.

 

 

So yes, there is no ambiguity in Iron Bull's personal quest now for me. Only one clear good choice 

 

But it's not clearly anything. Some people will like and prefer to have Bull betraying them on a particular playthrough, much like people could go back and choose who might live and who might die in the suicide run during Mass Effect 2. You know how to save every last one, but if the narrative you run up in your mind to roleplay your particular Shepard has things go a certain way, you're going to make the choices because of the particular outcome. It's as much a choice as any other in the game, one that gives obvious consequences. And for some people, they'll want that. More power to 'em.

 

Like others have said... stop metagaming, you'll just ruin your enjoyment of a quest or character.

[ElementalFury106]

But he never, he told you he was a spy and you knew he was Qun, doing the charger quest and letting them die reaffirms his commitment to the qun, it is obvious he is Qun, that is the choice, he stays Qun or he does not, it is the chargers you betray not bull, hence why the Inky should never have had that decision, it should have been bulls not ours, then after HE makes that decision and only then have you or anyone else the right to say he betrayed you but not before, if YOU let the chargers die, you betray not only them but the "person" bull was trying to be

 

Bull never betrayed the Inquisition, you betrayed him making the wrong choice

 

He fights Qunari for the entire quest, giving you the illusion that despite reaffirming his loyalty to the Qun, he stands and fights with the Inquisition. Then he turns on you during a moment where you are immensely out-numbered. I'd consider that a betrayal. True to the translation of his name "Hisraad; the Keeper of Illusions"

[Mr.House]

But he never, he told you he was a spy and you knew he was Qun, doing the charger quest and letting them die reaffirms his commitment to the qun, it is obvious he is Qun, that is the choice, he stays Qun or he does not, it is the chargers you betray not bull, hence why the Inky should never have had that decision, it should have been bulls not ours, then after HE makes that decision and only then have you or anyone else the right to say he betrayed you but not before, if YOU let the chargers die, you betray not only them but the "person" bull was trying to be

 

Bull never betrayed the Inquisition, you betrayed him making the wrong choice

He's not betraying you for personal reasons, he's betraying you because it's his order.

[Scofield]

He's not betraying you for personal reasons, he's betraying you because it's his order.

You answered elementals quote quite nicely, better than i could tbh lol

 

All he did was follow orders, get close, get friendly, feed information, strike when least expected, i'd say he done a great job

 

Its his job, he could have been the person you talk about when you say "betrayal" but you killed that person when you killed the chargers

[KCMeredith]

Its just a shame that you could see it coming from a mile away with his constant "No, I would know about it!" "Something has to be wrong, has to be!" and he even says "Make sure to take me with you and we will find out whats going on" or something like that when you talk to him at the Winter Palace.

 

Took him with me to see the cutscene though, adding some fuel to the fire before I personally turned his lights off. (I actually had Varric and Blackwall stand back because I wanted to kill him myself, nothing worse than traitors).

[Rekkampum]

What's the reason to let the Chargers die?

 

- A bull that betrays you?

- Possibility of an alliance with the qunari which is irrelevant anyways because hostilities between the two of you erupt anyways?

- A arguably bad staff schematic that you can now sync with the golden nug?

 

Idk it just feels like there isn't a reason to not make Bull Tal Vashoth, where previously there was. 

 

It feels like the connor/isolde/mages choice, where there is clearly a right choice. I like ambiguity. 

 

Maybe I'm missing something that other people are seeing. Do you honestly see yourself sacrificing the chargers in future playthroughs? 

 

Spoiler

The Iron Bull's nickname is Hissrad, which basically means "liar". The entire game, in conversations with him, he constantly brags about his skills in being able to read people and understand their motives and thinking process.

It's easy to see why he'd do what he did, given his devotion to the Qun above all else. Sacrificing the Chargers pretty much essentially demonstrated that no decision, once set upon that path, would be more important than those he was sworn to.

 

Also,

Spoiler

the only reason the Qunari start invading is because of Solas, who orchestrated all of the chaos that eventually led to the events of Inquisition. The Inquisition's relationship with him, especially given his true nature, would easily prove a justifiable reason for expansion, as it would demonstrate to them that the South didn't have things under control, which is pretty much the only reason they didn't invade two years earlier while Bull was with the Inquisition.

[thats1evildude]

"Make our choices have impact!"

 

"Here's a choice that has an impact."

 

"No, no, not like that."

[Lolomlas]

I liked it happened the way it did. Only thing that bothers me is that, when he is killed at least a little conversation could have been before his death. Especially since my Qunari Inky was romancing him.

[ElementalFury106]

You answered elementals quote quite nicely, better than i could tbh lol

 

All he did was follow orders, get close, get friendly, feed information, strike when least expected, i'd say he done a great job

 

Its his job, he could have been the person you talk about when you say "betrayal" but you killed that person when you killed the chargers

 

But see, just because he's open about his identity doesn't discount it as a betrayal. He supported you, then turned on you. It translates to a betrayal. Perhaps a predictable/expected betrayal, but a betrayal nevertheless.

 

Personal or not, a betrayal is what it is.

 

I apologize in advance the repetitive use of "betrayal" in this post.

[Rekkampum]

I liked it happened the way it did. Only thing that bothers me is that, when he is killed at least a little conversation could have been before his death. Especially since my Qunari Inky was romancing him.

 

THIS. Like we were talmbout marriage and everything. I understand you attacked because "for the Qun" and all, and right after I smote him with my OP'd Knight Enchanter and Reaver, it would've been nice to say goodbye to him. Or at least have the option to rip that necklace off of him.

[Mr.House]

Cole says he didn't feel anything from Bull when the fight happens. Tis very possible if you romance him when he's still part of the qun it was all a lie. Calling them a bas shows he never had any respect.

[Illyria]

Players: We want choices to mean something

Bioware: *Makes Leliana's development dependent on three seemingly meaningless converstations throughout the game, and gives a huge consequence to the outcome of Bull's quest.*

Players: We hate these choices and their consequences.

[Lee80]

I agree with those who have come to the realization that saving the chargers is by far the best choice.  It always was, but now it has been written in the Dragon Age stars.  Meta gaming or not-it's clear which choice has the best outcome.  

[GenSheng]

What's the reason to let the Chargers die?

 

- A bull that betrays you?

- Possibility of an alliance with the qunari which is irrelevant anyways because hostilities between the two of you erupt anyways?

- A arguably bad staff schematic that you can now sync with the golden nug?

 

Idk it just feels like there isn't a reason to not make Bull Tal Vashoth, where previously there was. 

 

It feels like the connor/isolde/mages choice, where there is clearly a right choice. I like ambiguity. 

 

Maybe I'm missing something that other people are seeing. Do you honestly see yourself sacrificing the chargers in future playthroughs? 

If you decided to kill the chargers then it should be no problem killing IB, he's not that different from them.

I have different problem, i was hoping for a good fight, gave him my best equipment but he died quicker than the saarebas in nm mode.

I guess i can make it tough not bringing static cages or lightning staff for those quanary mobs. 

[Rekkampum]

Cole says he didn't feel anything from Bull when the fight happens. Tis very possible if you romance him when he's still part of the qun it was all a lie. Calling them a bas shows he never had any respect.

 

I'd like to think that he was definitely serious as far as the whole "kadan" thing was concerned, given how important that ceremony is in Qunari culture. As for his betrayal, that's because he's probably been tipped off to what was happening later through the Ben-Hassrath and could've been lying the entire time. I think they leave that to be ambiguous for that very purpose. I just interpreted what Cole said as proof that The Iron Bull was simply fully devoted to his duty as a member of the Qun and wouldn't compromise that for anything, including his own personal feelings.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Depending on how you want to craft your main character's story betrayal can be an interesting development, so yes I'm still going to have a playthrough or two were bull stays with the Qun while knowing the end result.

[MKDAWUSS]

The Inquisition served its purpose to the Qunari.
The Qunari served its purpose to the Inquisition.

 

 

The only surprising part for me was that there was no "lying on the floor wounded speech" at the end.

[Drasanil]

Bull's quest is so much better with trespasser now. I honestly can never think of a (meta) reason to save the chargers. Letting them die means:

 

-You get to kill Bull.

-You get to expose the Qunari for the faithless backstabbers they are.

-You get to start a proper Cow Scare and put Thedas on the war footing. 

[Rekkampum]

Depending on how you want to craft your main character's story betrayal can be an interesting development, so yes I'm still going to have a playthrough or two were bull stays with the Qun while knowing the end result.

 

It really burned for me given that my first Qunari Inquisitor had romanced The Iron Bull and sacrificed the Chargers. But it was a betrayal that I saw was inevitable in the future, so it made perfect sense when it happened.

[SwobyJ]

Depends on the next game, for me.

[katling73]

What's the reason to let the Chargers die?

 

- A bull that betrays you?

- Possibility of an alliance with the qunari which is irrelevant anyways because hostilities between the two of you erupt anyways?

- A arguably bad staff schematic that you can now sync with the golden nug?

 

Idk it just feels like there isn't a reason to not make Bull Tal Vashoth, where previously there was. 

 

It feels like the connor/isolde/mages choice, where there is clearly a right choice. I like ambiguity. 

 

Maybe I'm missing something that other people are seeing. Do you honestly see yourself sacrificing the chargers in future playthroughs? 

 

In regards to the first two points, if you didn't see those two things coming from a 'sacrifice the Chargers' playthrough the moment a Qunari invasion DLC was suggested then you weren't paying attention to what was said and done in game.

 

If you sacrifice the Chargers, you push Bull back to the Qun, back to who he was - Hissrad. Or as Gatt so eloquently puts it - Liar. Of course he's going to betray you. Trespasser would have been a bad DLC if Bull didn't betray you under those circumstances. You've killed his friends, his family, the thing that was pulling him away from the Qun, the very thing that makes being Tal-Vashoth worth it to him. Under those circumstances, he has no reason to be loyal to you beyond the orders of the Qun.

 

As for the Alliance, I can't remember where it's mentioned - it may in the World of Thedas book - but Qunari treaties are not worth the paper they're written on. Why would an alliance be any different? Besides, the alliance was for the purpose of defeating Corypheus. That's been done and that is more than enough of an out for the Qun. Besides, there are some indications that the Triumvirate of the Qun doesn't intend to invade just yet, even without an alliance. There's a letter you can find from Josephine that's been sent to the Triumvirate and they do indicate that what's happening is not at their order and they intend to stop it. Whether they mean that or not isn't revealed however... but I daresay they wouldn't have been that disappointed if the Qunari woman (Sorry, can't remember her title first thing in the morning.) had succeeded in subduing the south.

[Darkstarr11]

I KNEW an alliance would come back to bite, and now I have proof.  I'm GLAD there are consequences for choices.  Makes you think twice before just going with what we might think is the 'practical' choice, doesn't it?  HAHAHAHAHA!  Oh, that felt good.

[KaiserShep]

Why did your Marcher Inky decide to take on the quest at all then? Seems like they would have refused it.

Morbid curiosity? Any operation to deal with venatori may be worth investigating at the very least.

[Elfroot]

Finally a choice with proper dramatic consequences! I only let the Chargers die once and spent the game trying to figure out how the Qunari alliance was doing anything for me. Did not make the same mistake twice after that. Bull was good friends with my Inquisitor so I got the "not a chance, ma'am" dialogue - but I did wonder. It's probably tied to approval levels, too, so if he's not locked down he'll probably turn on you, Maybe - I'm guessing that even if you spare the Chargers but ignore him for the rest of the game, you're in for a big surprise in Trespasser.

 

All in all, good call Bioware!

[eyespI]

I chose the Qun over the Chargers this playthrough, and am incredibly glad Bull betrayed me. I'm over the moon that Bioware finally decided to have a real consequence for a character's personal arc - it makes perfect sense, and it's so coldly done that it works fantastically.

 

I'll do it again. The chance to learn more about the Qunari through the Alliance, the intelligence reports you receive, the respect the Inquisitor earns amongst the Qun, and the fact that you're the first alliance the Qunari have made in their history? That all matters, it's important. It sets precedents for the future that might allow a peaceful solution to the Qunari problem. It's a real political step.

 

In exchange for a group of mercenaries I don't particularly care for? Absolutely. I don't dislike them, don't misunderstand. I like Krem well enough, and the loss of Iron Bull now is definitely rough, but it all makes sense. I'm sacrificing for the possibility of a bigger future, learning more about a very dangerous group in Thedas and possibly laying the bedrock for future negotiations. I'm fine with having to sacrifice for that - it's what Inqusition was about.

Hissrad is still a two-timing son-of-a-nug though...he's the reason I KNOW Vidasala was not a rogue agent.