250 réponses à ce sujet

[Nixou]

In a decision that most people were already leaning towards saving the chargers, with the addition of the revelations in trespasser, I don't see why they even made it a choice.

 

 

Not all choices have to be ambiguous dilemmas. You get better results by brokering peace between the Dalish and Werewolves, by saving the Mages then using their help to free Connor, by saving City Elves from slavery, by opposing Sister Petrine at every turn, by bringing Anders during Bartrand's sidequest, by keeping the Wardens instead of exiling them, by carefully selecting the right advisors for war table missions, etc...

 

Likewise, in Mass Effect, you got better results by befriending Wrex, preserving Maelon's work, saving whichever squad-mate you sent with Kirrahe, helping Tali with her trial while befriending Legion, etc, etc, etc...

 

And beside, people get furious when Bioware's writer do not provide them with a clear Golden Path: remember the reaction when people realized that no matter what they did, Hawke was fated to fail in preventing the Mage-Templar war: for the writers, it's a damned if they do (one choice gets a better resolution than the others: it's a faux choice! The writers clearly favor one branch over the others! it's sucks!), damned if they don't (there's no meaningful difference between the different choices' consequences! it sucks!) situation.

[Navasha]

My 'canon' inquititor runs never would have betrayed my own people anyway.   Even before Trespasser it was pretty obvious that the whole mission with Bull was a loyalty test for him.   The Qun never had an desire to actually ally with the Inquisition.   

 

Still, I will play the game occasionally with self-serving callous inquisitors who will still trade lives for a small bit of power and so I am glad that the choice has some consequences.

[rx00]

My 'canon' inquititor runs never would have betrayed my own people anyway.   Even before Trespasser it was pretty obvious that the whole mission with Bull was a loyalty test for him.   The Qun never had an desire to actually ally with the Inquisition.   

 

Still, I will play the game occasionally with self-serving callous inquisitors who will still trade lives for a small bit of power and so I am glad that the choice has some consequences.

 

Technically neither you or Iron Bull "betrayed" the Chargers during that quest, you sacrificed them so the operation could succeed.

[Kurogane335]

I too feel deeply affected by this DLC. For me, the player, the metagaming knowledge earned here mean that my sole completed storyline in Inquisition, the one I intended to makes canon won't ever make it to DA4, if even I buy the next game if the Qunari are the main antagonists and that it happens in Tevinter.

 

I have no problem with Iron Bull returning to the Qun. I've a huge problem with how the developers seem to have dropped the ball when it comes to a nuanced story around the Qun and instead said "screw that, they're just fuckers that must be stopped at all cost". Instead of ever making the alliance with the Qun worth it, it is made totally useless and in fact detrimental to the Inquisition.

 

Added to that the fact that the presentation of the DLC is terrible since if there ever had to be a fight with the Qunari, it should have been brought in a more nuanced way, like them actually telling to the Inquisitor that there is some suspicious activities by on of his/her former companion, i.e Solas and that they offer their help to deal with it. Then having the first half of the DLC being the Qunari and the Inquisition working hand in had only to have a confrontation with Solas where the Inquisition would have either chose to fight him or to let him go should have triggered -or not- the conflict with the Qunari. It would have been a good mirror of what the Iron Bull had to endure when he had to choose the Chargers or the Qun, but only for the Inquisitor choosing between his friend/love and the world.

 

Instead of that, Tresspasser is a mess of illogical choices and actions from the Qunari and a bad omen for the future story of the franchise...

[leaguer of one]

I too feel deeply affected by this DLC. For me, the player, the metagaming knowledge earned here mean that my sole completed storyline in Inquisition, the one I intended to makes canon won't ever make it to DA4, if even I buy the next game if the Qunari are the main antagonists and that it happens in Tevinter.

 

I have no problem with Iron Bull returning to the Qun. I've a huge problem with how the developers seem to have dropped the ball when it comes to a nuanced story around the Qun and instead said "screw that, they're just fuckers that must be stopped at all cost". Instead of ever making the alliance with the Qun worth it, it is made totally useless and in fact detrimental to the Inquisition.

 

Added to that the fact that the presentation of the DLC is terrible since if there ever had to be a fight with the Qunari, it should have been brought in a more nuanced way, like them actually telling to the Inquisitor that there is some suspicious activities by on of his/her former companion, i.e Solas and that they offer their help to deal with it. Then having the first half of the DLC being the Qunari and the Inquisition working hand in had only to have a confrontation with Solas where the Inquisition would have either chose to fight him or to let him go should have triggered -or not- the conflict with the Qunari. It would have been a good mirror of what the Iron Bull had to endure when he had to choose the Chargers or the Qun, but only for the Inquisitor choosing between his friend/love and the world.

 

Instead of that, Tresspasser is a mess of illogical choices and actions from the Qunari and a bad omen for the future story of the franchise...

Have you met the qunari?

I sorry but you have an illusion of grander for them. The very sec that breach open up of course they are going to have concern with the south and it's magic. This is a ethnicity about controlling the world around them. Think for a moment, how would a culture like that react to the breach, an event far off in the world not of there fault that can destroy the world they live on? They are not going to sit and do nothing. They are going to try and control thing so nothing like that happens again. that how there culture is added on the fact they are anti-magic.

 

Let not also for get the fact that every qunari character, apathetic or not, states the qun one day will invade all of thedus one way or another. It not a surprise they did this everything about them lead up to this and the breach was the last straw.

 

Sorry, but you need to understand, what's in trespasser with the qun is far from illogical. They see the inquistor nothing more then a saarbas that need to be controlled or taken down.

[Nixou]

I have no problem with Iron Bull returning to the Qun. I've a huge problem with how the developers seem to have dropped the ball when it comes to a nuanced story around the Qun and instead said "screw that, they're just fuckers that must be stopped at all cost". Instead of ever making the alliance with the Qun worth it, it is made totally useless and in fact detrimental to the Inquisition.

 

 

I got the impression that the writers intended portray the Qunari as politically divided between Doves and Hawks, with Bull being by temperament a Dove forced to answer to members of the hawkish faction until it eventually reached the breaking point, and the Doves being ill-served by the fact that their society lacks a formal diplomatic corp (therefore interactions with foreign powers are done solely through their military and spies, themselves dominated by the Hawks, which makes peaceful negotiations difficult)

[Mr.House]

There is no such thing as an alliance with the Qun, the game made this clear many times. Looks like people really fell for the cuddlyqun.

[Wulfram]

There is no such thing as an alliance with the Qun, the game made this clear many times. Looks like people really fell for the cuddlyqun.

They're probably about as reliable allies as any other country.

As Lord Palmerston said
"We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow"

[Kurogane335]

Have you met the qunari?

I sorry but you have an illusion of grander for them. The very sec that breach open up of course they are going to have concern with the south and it's magic. This is a ethnicity about controlling the world around them. Think for a moment, how would a culture like that react to the breach, an event far off in the world not of there fault that can destroy the world they live on? They are not going to sit and do nothing. They are going to try and control thing so nothing like that happens again. that how there culture is added on the fact they are anti-magic.

 

Let not also for get the fact that every qunari character, apathetic or not, states the qun one day will invade all of thedus one way or another. It not a surprise they did this everything about them lead up to this and the breach was the last straw.

 

Sorry, but you need to understand, what's in trespasser with the qun is far from illogical. They see the inquistor nothing more then a saarbas that need to be controlled or taken down.

 

Have you seen the Chantry ? Or Tevinter ? They all want to control the world and submit it to their vision and values. The Qun is the least horrible of the three by a far margin. And yes, everything in the Trespasser is illogical when it comes to the Qun. Even them must know that you don't launch a war against powers so far away from your home, especially not when it will ensure that everyone in Thedas will ally against you, when you can use Tevinter's loss of reputation because of the Venatori to attack him with a greater chance of Southern Thedas saying "to hell with the Vints".

[Poledo]

I would have loved if when Bull called me Bas, my Qunari mage would have said... "That's Saarebas to you!"

 

That's all I have to say.

[Heimdall]

Having a player choice have negative reprocussioons was great!

And predictable. You choice to solidify Bull's loyalty to another organization you had to know was making an alliance of convenience at best.

[Mr.House]

Have you seen the Chantry ? Or Tevinter ? They all want to control the world and submit it to their vision and values. The Qun is the least horrible of the three by a far margin. And yes, everything in the Trespasser is illogical when it comes to the Qun. Even them must know that you don't launch a war against powers so far away from your home, especially not when it will ensure that everyone in Thedas will ally against you, when you can use Tevinter's loss of reputation because of the Venatori to attack him with a greater chance of Southern Thedas saying "to hell with the Vints".

You don't understand their plan at all. Their plan was simple. Had it succeed all leaders and big wigs in the south would have been killed, the south would have been thrown into chaos again and would have been slim pickings for the qun to conquer and convert. The only reason why the Inquisitor found out and got involved was because of Solas. Had his agents not found out, you would have died in the explosion along with all the important people (which included the divine, the bulk of the Inquisition, the pillars of that group, Fereldens ambassador, the duke and a high number of nobles on boths sides along with Celene and Briala if there) at the conclave. They also had gaatlok at other important palaces and places around the entire south so the leaders of Ferelden, Gaspard if emperor, the leaders of each major city in Kirkwall ect would have also been killed. Tevinter would have been surrounded by the enemy on both sides.

 

Also note that depending on who is divine, the Chantry can be faaaaaaaaar better then the Qun. Cass or a soften Leli make improve the Chantry big time.

[Al Foley]

Have you seen the Chantry ? Or Tevinter ? They all want to control the world and submit it to their vision and values. The Qun is the least horrible of the three by a far margin. And yes, everything in the Trespasser is illogical when it comes to the Qun. Even them must know that you don't launch a war against powers so far away from your home, especially not when it will ensure that everyone in Thedas will ally against you, when you can use Tevinter's loss of reputation because of the Venatori to attack him with a greater chance of Southern Thedas saying "to hell with the Vints".

The Qun is by far the least horrible of the three?  Maker's breath. 

[Kurogane335]

The Qun is by far the least horrible of the three?  Maker's breath. 

I find the Chantry an utter abomination and Tevinter is far worse. SO yes, the Qun which has destroyed poverty, have a great healthcare system and doesn't suffer from racism is by far a better place to live.

[LOLandStuff]

I played a mage the first time, and what with the anchor and all, I thought these guys would turn on me the moment Corypheus is dead and the Breach closed. Because dangerous magic and them hyperventilating.

[Bigdoser]

I find the Chantry an utter abomination and Tevinter is far worse. SO yes, the Qun which has destroyed poverty, have a great healthcare system and doesn't suffer from racism is by far a better place to live.

i prefer having a choice than being reduced to pretty much a vegetable for refusing to do something. The qun is more of an abomination than tevinter and the chantry.

[BSpud]

The Qunari, nuanced? Hahahaha.

[Neres]

The Qunari are hellbent on converting the south to their methodology, even if it means using seemingly illogical methods like a reliance on magic. They trained saarebas as living weapons, so of course Viddasala would use them to try and take down the Inquisitor. In their worldview, everyone that doesn't adhere to the Qun are all things. All of them. Even those not in control of what they have or don't such as mages, which they again treat as living weapons and cattle.

 

Their logic is pretty frigged up as well; in the conversation with Viddasala there is pretty much an undertone of 'Yeah, we're bad but what you've been doing is so awful we think we're not hypocrites!' In the battle with the dragon she accuses you of hurting an innocent creature even though she sicced it on you. In general, their philosophy can be summed up as 'just shut up and keep punching the brick wall!'

 

They have even caused massive psychological harm, as demonstrated with the Codex entry for Ben-Hassrath Reeducation. The subject the entry refers to is denied food, water, sleep and even bathroom breaks. He is compared to as being worse than garbage, and when he explains why he attacked the first time he is accused of lying. He is shown pictures and told that every single Tal-Vashoth ever is a psychotic manslaughtering creature.

 

Which makes you really think about the crab Bull must have gone through. He has been afraid of losing himself and one day turning into a creature, so going through the process of breaking off the potential alliance and giving him people who truly do care about him would give him a catharsis.

 

On the other hand if you do go through with the alliance, Bull is de-humanized once more, even though he doesn't show it until he is ordered to attack. He gets to keep his romantic bond with the Inquisitor/Dorian, which shows that the Qunari don't hesitate to use anything as a weapon including love. Which is what I was originally meaning to say; it wasn't really Bull's fault he betrays his group but rather the Qunari's for taking what Bull established with the Inquisition and twisting it.

[Al Foley]

I find the Chantry an utter abomination and Tevinter is far worse. SO yes, the Qun which has destroyed poverty, have a great healthcare system and doesn't suffer from racism is by far a better place to live.

Since when does the Qunari have a great health care system?  *scratches head*.  

 

And here I prefer freedom.  There is a chance with that in Southern Thedas.  There is none under the Qun. 

[Ryzaki]

I honestly don't understand how people who 'liked' bull are suddenly upset when he betrays them... you kinda sactificed his friends and pushed him more towards to Qun, how could you not think that could have any real consequences. Honestly, in the vanilla game, I always thought it was weird how Bull acted the same if you ended up killing the chargers and the romance continued. No matter how much I play I can never sacrifice the chargers, unless I'm playing my salty, pragmatic assquisitor. 

 

He actually doesn't. The differences are just very subtle. Which makes sense considering spy and mask.

[Kurogane335]

i prefer having a choice than being reduced to pretty much a vegetable for refusing to do something. The qun is more of an abomination than tevinter and the chantry.

But choice is at the core of the Qun, at least at the origin.

 

"When the Ashkaari looked upon the destruction wrought by locusts,
He saw at last the order in the world.
A plague must cause suffering for as long as it endures,
Earthquakes must shatter the land.
They are bound by their being.
Asit tal-eb. It is to be.
For the world and the self are one.
Existence is a choice.
A self of suffering, brings only suffering to the world.
It is a choice, and we can refuse it."

 

The last three sentences are quite clear. One can live a life of good by trying to better the world, or he can actually live miserably and bring suffering to the world around him (which is quite close to the original Buddhism when you think of it, even if their society seems more of an Utopian Socialism society realised, like the one theorised by Charles Fourier). I'll grant you that the way it has been handled strangely, but we have seen every Qunari so far make choices. Even for themselves (hello Sten choosing to surrender to the humans coming to arrest him after he murdered the farmer family because he believed he had dishonoured himself).

 

And we have seen that choice in the Chantry countries is an illusion : what choice to the elves have in alienage ? How much can a poor Orlesian actually choose something for himself when it he always suffering to makes enough money to simply survive ? What choice a castless dwarf can actually have in Orzammar or even at the surface when he has no knowledge but join the Carta ?

 

 

Since when does the Qunari have a great health care system?  *scratches head*.  

 

And here I prefer freedom.  There is a chance with that in Southern Thedas.  There is none under the Qun. 

 

We learn here that they live a little longer than the other races thanks to medication, and the wiki states that they are the most advanced people of Thedas when it comes to technology.

 

[TobiTobsen]

And we have seen that choice in the Chantry countries is an illusion : what choice to the elves have in alienage ? How much can a poor Orlesian actually choose something for himself when it he always suffering to makes enough money to simply survive ? What choice a castless dwarf can actually have in Orzammar or even at the surface when he has no knowledge but join the Carta ?

 

How is the Chantry or the believe in the Stone responsible for the grievances of a feudal/caste system?

 

What the Qun offers is not even the illusion of choice. If your options are "a) the will of the Qun" or "b) reeducators and/or qamek", it's no choice at all

[Kurogane335]

How is the Chantry or the believe in the Stone responsible for the grievances of a feudal/caste system?

 

What the Qun offers is not even the illusion of choice. If your options are "a) the will of the Qun" or "b) reeducators and/or qamek", it's no choice at all

And the Chantry or the Stone offers you their way or death/exile in the wildlands. And they actually never cared to oppose the feudal system, because they thrive on it. The Chantry especially, but Tevinter even more, offer wealth and glory to the very few at the expense of the many. The Qun doesn't and that's why it is far better. The Qunari actually have a society without money nor merchants but it works. And while there is limitations on the career you can have, you still have choices available to you, just as much than the poor guys enrolled in the nobles' armies and are dying for something which will never bring anything to themselves.

[denise12184]

I love the qunari. I think they have one of the most interesting cultures in the game. I actually agree with a lot of what we know of the Qun. In theory.

 

The problem is, it's black and white, where reality is gray, and that's *never* going to work.

 

Every organization has its issues. The difference is that most people can work for change if things are bad. In the Qun, you can't. Existence is a choice. Sure. Your choice is to exist as the Qun says you should, or be 'fixed', rendered mindless, or not exist at all. That's the problem with the Qun. Sure, qunari make choices, but they are pretty much brainwashed into making those choices in the vacuum of the Qun.

 

Life sucks sometimes. Outside of the Qun, you still have the choice in how you handle it. Even Gatt said most of the viddethari just see the Qun as a kinder form of slavery. I'll agree it could be a better life for some, but even Bull admits, not everyone will do well. if they were just accepting others that wanted to join up, it would be fine. They aren't. They're set on converting the entire world by any means necessary.

[Forsythia77]

I sacrificed the Chargers once, and it pained me to do that.  But that is because I personally am a relationship person rather than a pragmatist.  As a person who builds her inquisitions on people I see no reason to sacrifice the Chargers for an alliance with a foreign power that we don't even get to see or really work with in any real capacity.  Like Bull says, he's is used to them being "over there" and they can stay over there until they aren't.  I see no reason to have them "over here" prematurely and put myself and my inquisition on their radar.