161 réponses à ce sujet

[Pedro Barrera]

Hello and thank you for reading my post, as I am barely new to this forum. I wanted to share with you an INCREDIBLE theory I just came up with after having that conversation with Solas... that the elven gods ARE the old gods of Tevinter. I hope i can convince you, or at least, amuse you. Here goes:

 

As son as I finished Trespasser, I began to think... If Solas made the veil to separate the fade from the real world, thus exiling the pantheon of false elven gods to the fade... where does that leave blights? Exactly there ladies and gentlemen. For what we know, the old gods were tevinter gods, beings of immense power, that tought powerful magic to the magisters of old, while trapped in the fade... but what if they are the elven gods? By the actions of Solas, the elven people began a rebelión to their gods right after he send them to the fade, so since their own people turned their back on this superpowerful mages, why not try to deceive humans mages to free them? Makes perfect sense. They were incredibly good mages with immense knowledge, enough to teach to the magisters so that they could conquer the world and be forever in their debt. Thus, at one time, the old god Dumat would encourage them to go to the fade and set them free, and after that they would probably had betrayed the humans...

 

What proof do I have, apart from this Little gathering of pieces? Well, several, or enough to make it extremely likely:

 

If the elven gods are the tevinter gods under different names... wouldnt an organization as POWERFUL as the andrastian chantry, eventualy find this out? And if they did, wouldnt they cover it up to rise in power? Of course they would. Therefore, that explains why they covered up Inquisitor Ameridan, why they marched on the dales when they tried to reconstruct Arlathan and why they removed the chant of shartan from the chant of light; so that the elven power would be forgotten. In fact, what would happen if the elves found out of this? they would march madly to the dep roads to find and free their pantheon. Note that Vivienne, the most tyranic-old school chantry posible divine, agrees with this in Trespasser, as i can recall her saying at the elven library that if the knowledge the elves had was so powerful and destructive, it may beteer be left forgotten.

 

If the elven gods are the tevinter gods, why are the archdemons dragons? This is silly to explain really but i feel obliged to leave no blanks. Flemeth is an elven goddess, and can shapeshift into dragons, we saw it 3 times during the saga. She adopts Morrigan, a normal woman, and she teaches them to shapeshift into common animals. Then she dispatches Morrigan with The Grey Warden, and she can even teach the shapeshift specialization to him/her. Also, in inquisition, had Morrigan drank from the well of sorrows, Flemeth teaches her to shapeshif into a dragon for the final batte against corypheus.

 

If the elven gods are the old gods, wouldnt an elven god be concerned about the fate of an old god, in a paranoic way? Sure as hell they would. Why is Solas so PARANOID about the grey wardens marching on the Deep roads to kill the old gods? he fears they might free them? AND WHY DOES FLEMETH SEND MORRIGAN WITH THE WARDEN TO GET URTHEMIEL´S SOUL? Might it be another part of Mythal? Or of yet another elven legend? This explains why solas kills her. He deeply respects and cares for Mithal, but fears that she herself, and trough Morrigan, may intend to forgive and remake the elven pantheon that Solas seeks dead or forever punished.

 

But the only gap for wich i have no proof in my theory, wich i PLEASE want you to take as pure faith... is the following: maybe the magisters succeeded. Maybe they DID free the elven gods, and then, the gods may have indeed betrayed them by forever cursing them into blighted-sick creatures. And in an attempt of fight back, the magisters locked them all up in superprisons at the Deep roads, possibly inside Titans, because of their friendship with the dwarven empire who was known for resisting magic. Maybe they tought they could find the Titans in pain for this trespasser gods, and have them killed... but this failed and unleashed a blight.

 

Please, tell me you love me

 

[MidnightWolf]

I love you?......Tis an interesting theory you have.....and it does go some way to explaining Solas' outrage at the Wardens.
I must go away and ponder this.

[Pedro Barrera]

Thank you! Feel free to share this information... just please say you heard it here from me. Im barely starting on this thing of forums...

[MidnightWolf]

Thank you! Feel free to share this information... just please say you heard it here from me. Im barely starting on this thing of forums...

Welcome to the forums. I look forward to reading anymore theory's you have.

[Pedro Barrera]

Maybe in time I will finish gathering enough information on sandal to make one of him. That guy is everywhere, and knows everything. He can even predict the future... but i need to have a solid base before rushing ahead.

[MidnightWolf]

Maybe in time I will finish gathering enough information on sandal to make one of him. That guy is everywhere, and knows everything. He can even predict the future... but i need to have a solid base before rushing ahead.

There's a thread here somewhere in the spoiler section about Sandals predictions you may find interesting. It's about the cryptic things he said in DA2. Something about 'One day the magic will come back, all of it. The sky will open up and when he returns, everyone will know'......Fans now think he was talking about Solas.

[Heimdall]

No, they are not. The Old Gods are not trapped in the Fade, in fact it seems they were once able to freely communicate with their dreaming worshippers through the Fade. Their prisons are physical, underground. Also, Solas hates the Evanuris, yet he is horrified at the idea of the Grey Wardens killing the Old Gods. The truth is we don't know what the Old Gods are. We don't know what Solas or Mythal, neither of whom have any reason to preserve the Evanuris, know that makes preserving the Old Gods so important. I feel I should also note that Mythal is the only elven god whose imagery regularly focuses on dragons. The Qunari lore indicates they really were dragons, "to dragons what kings are to ordinary men" whatever that means. That's all we know for sure.

The only fact that people keep latching onto with this is that there are seven of them, but that doesn't mean much.

[Pedro Barrera]

That was the one I answered at, too. Read my post there. I found evidence of Sandal crossing the eluvians into the library, as there is an easter egg regarding him there (a diary of his, and superb runes next to them)

[Pedro Barrera]

That is why it is a theory. And come on, a solid one really! And for all I have been taught in the saga, the old gods were indeed trapped in the fade, but if not, then again, may be a part of the history that has been lost. And I climb to my (proofless) theory that the magisters locked them into the Deep roads after the elven gods infected them with the blight, wich might be something like biological magic... who knows, if they were believed gods in a time where magic was "as natural as breathing" they could very much make blights...

 

Also, I read at Kotaku, and then at IGN, that if you play the whispers of the well of sorrows backwards, you can almost perfectly listen "MITHAAL COMMANDS THE CALLING" wich MIGHT be the blight calling.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think the Old Gods are the Eluvanis we know of as the Creators of the Pantheon, but I can see them being the Forgotten Ones. The Forgotten Ones were the Elven Gods that waged war with the Creators before the Dread Wolf tricked them and sealed them deep within the earth just like he tricked and sealed the Creators into the sky.

[Pedro Barrera]

Wow! That makes even more sense Hanako! But my knowledge on the other elven gods ia literally none. I'm not much of an elf lore lover, in fact, everytime I can have a dwarf, I have one. That is why i was so hyped at this and Sandal... because I love dwarven lore, and i dont want to keep hearing that they dont know how the darkspawn began, I want an answer.

EDIT: hey dude wait a minute I think i actually remember a little now... Didnt Solas tricked each clan of gods, by telling them the other had a super weapon that was powerful enough to kill the other clan? And didnt he tell them that the other clan had it on their realm and therefore convinced them of going there to retrieve it? Or did he tell them that each clan was hiding the weapon on the enemy realm, thus sealing them in their own realm? I do not remember wich of those two it is. Depending on the answer, you might have just hit a grand slam

[Heimdall]

That is why it is a theory. And come on, a solid one really! And for all I have been taught in the saga, the old gods were indeed trapped in the fade, but if not, then again, may be a part of the history that has been lost.

There is absolutely nothing in the lore about the Old Gods being trapped in the Fade.

[Merengues 1945]

I don't think the Old Gods are the Eluvanis we know of as the Creators of the Pantheon, but I can see them being the Forgotten Ones. The Forgotten Ones were the Elven Gods that waged war with the Creators before the Dread Wolf tricked them and sealed them deep within the earth just like he tricked and sealed the Creators into the sky.

 

Exactly my thoughts, it would seem fit after the Evanuris where sealed on the heavens, having the Forgotten Ones sealed underground. Solas seems to be quite versed in them given that he must have fell into slumber before the rise of Tevinter and the blights. Maybe it's because he knows their origin, but then again the problem with this theory is that why simply seal them underground without magical protection or any physical barrier except for tonnes upon tonnes of rock.

 

This also raises doubts on the origin and purpose of the blight. After all, the Old Gods led through dreams a bunch of Tevinter Magisters to travel to the fade and unleash it upon the world.

 

As I see it, there are two options; The Old Gods are in fact the Evanuris and their crime was to create the blight. (Although it leaves in the shadows the animosity of Solas for the Wardens) Or that the Old Gods and the Evanuris sealed away joined minds to set the wheels of the blight in motion. Oh, It would be poetic and vindicating if the Wardens kept the key of salvation from the gods and their petty fights.

[Kimarous]

I was starting to think something along these lines the other day as well.

[ZoliCs]

I laughed at the notion that the Chantry could figure out anything.

[Pedro Barrera]

I laughed at the notion that the Chantry could figure out anything.

Well I did say I at least hoped to amuse you! Still, The Chantry has existed for what, 850 years now? And they had the original inquisition, who then became the templars and the seekers, at their service. Maybe not the chantry itself, but someone working in the name of the chantry, discovered this and covered it up with the help of the Chantry. Dwarves could have immense lore, should they not have the costume to delete some of their historic recordings. And we are not talking about memories wrote in lyrium here. Perhaps this information wasn't even in books or scrolls but just on people, who then were silenced.

[ZoliCs]

Just something I found that's relevant:

 

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

As for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete. The whole truth was lost along with Arlathan and their immortality -- much of their lore was kept by a tradition of apprenticeship, handed down from the knowledgeable to the young, and this relied on the fact that the knowledgeable were eternal. Slaves also had less opportunity to spread their lore, so the sudden aging of the knowledgeable meant that much of this information was simply gone after several generations. This, of course, is their belief: the ancient Imperium maintained that the elves were never immortal to begin with, and that their lore was lost simply because the Imperium forbade its teaching.

Even so, the ancient elves did write things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual. For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods by a long time. Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would think elven gods were worth worshipping. Consider also that it was the Old Gods that taught humanity its magic and encouraged them to destroy Arlathan -- why would elven gods do this? One could point to the Forgotten Ones (look at the codex entry on Fen'Harel for their mention) and suggest that they had reason for vengeance, though that would probably be against Fen'Harel and their good brethren and not against the elven people themselves, no? Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete.

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

The modern Chantry, however, does say that all these other gods are false. It doesn't say they never existed (though the elven legends are dismissed as just that, for the most part, but that's a carry-over of Imperial belief), but merely suggests that the Maker was long ago forgotten and that He is the only god that is worthy of true worship. The fact that His creations turned away from Him is shameful, and it is only by proving our worth to Him once again that the world will become the paradise He intended.

All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith -- though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome. 

 

 

[Stark777]

Solas trapped the Elven Gods by creating the Veil, and the Old Gods are trapped within the Earth in the real world, so I don´t believe they are the same at all.

 

 

And also we have seen two Elven Gods: Mythal and Fen'Harel. Mythal was a dragon (she usually transformed into a dragon) but Fen'Harel animal was a wolf. I think the rest of the gods will have a different animal for each one (a halla, a eagle, etc.) and none of them will be dragons.

[Kallimachus]

 I feel I should also note that Mythal is the only elven god whose imagery regularly focuses on dragons.

 

That's true, but there is the "sinner codex" that hints (or at least can be interpreted) that all the Elven Gods could take Dragon form:

 

This elven writing found in the Arbor Wilds is so old there seems to be no way to learn what it means.

There are whispers from the Well of Sorrows. It's impossible to understand the entire text, but certain parts suddenly reveal a shadow of their original meaning.

"His crime is high treason. He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine. The sinner belongs to Dirthamen; he claims he took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain, and begs protection from Mythal. She does not show him favor, and will let Elgar'nan judge him."

For one moment there is an image of a shifting, shadowy mass with blazing eyes, whose form may be one or many. Then it fades.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I definitely think they're linked. In Thedas, everything is related to the elves....... everything.

[RyanJW]

I've been thinking that there might be some connection between the Evanuris and the Old Gods ever since DAI came out with the Flemeth reveal.  And while there is no actual evidence of a connection, there is a lot of negative space that suggests it.

1. The first and easiest is the seven imprisoned Evanuris and the seven Old Gods.

2. The Dragon form connection based on Flemeth/Morrigan's shape-shifting, the dragon statues and the sinner's codex already mentioned.

3. Solas never denies a connection, just that there is no known theory that connects the two.

4. Fen'Harel doesn't take on dragon form because he denies the divinity of the Evanuris. You would hardly take on divine form while rejecting divinity.

5. The fact that the Evanuris and Old Gods are imprisoned in two different locations is not really a flaw with this theory. As Flemeth said in DA2 "Must I be in only one place? Bodies are such limiting things." It's possible that when he created the Veil, Solas imprisoned the dragon bodies of the Evanuris underground where they would be trapped while the, for lack of a better term, souls of the Evanuris were sealed in the Fade.

 

I think that the Evanuris had multiple bodies throughout the empire to govern, there were being like that in the Fade library in Trespasser. When the Veil formed, they were cut off from each other and eventually all were killed or went into hiding as the empire collapsed.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

There was talk before about lizard people. Drawings in Emerald Graves, codex in Descent. How would they fit in? Forgotten Ones?

[Pedro Barrera]

Yes I have noticed those lizzard conspiracies, but I believe is nothing factual and rather just a mock to those weird religions or theories people have sometimes, like the theory of the hollow earth.

[Ranadiel Marius]

(Posted this in another thread but seems appropriate here as well) The problem with the Old Gods being the Evanuris in any shape or form is that our current info is that the Evanuris were the ones who killed Mythal...and Mythal is extremely mad at her betrayer(s), so I don't think she would be saving them like she appears to be doing with the Old God Souls.

But the only gap for wich i have no proof in my theory, wich i PLEASE want you to take as pure faith... is the following: maybe the magisters succeeded. Maybe they DID free the elven gods, and then, the gods may have indeed betrayed them by forever cursing them into blighted-sick creatures. And in an attempt of fight back, the magisters locked them all up in superprisons at the Deep roads, possibly inside Titans, because of their friendship with the dwarven empire who was known for resisting magic. Maybe they tought they could find the Titans in pain for this trespasser gods, and have them killed... but this failed and unleashed a blight.

 

Please, tell me you love me

The behavior and timeline doesn't fit for this idea. The Sidereal Magisters by all appearances are drawn to the Old Gods. That doesn't make sense for their curse to include seeking out the Old Gods if the Old Gods were only sealed after being cursed. Also if the Old Gods were the Elvhen Gods, then Solas would not be trying to protect them, he would be leading the expeditions into the Deep Roads himself to kill them rather than disapproving of the Grey Warden's plans.

 

 

Yes I have noticed those lizzard conspiracies, but I believe is nothing factual and rather just a mock to those weird religions or theories people have sometimes, like the theory of the hollow earth.

Hollow Earth thory is kind of accurate in Thedas actually. >.> As for the Lizard people, we have a codex entry of a dwarf who fought with them some unknown time ago, so there at some point was some group of living things down there which looked like lizard people that fought a group of dwarves, so it isn't completely bunk.

[BloodyTalon]

The Old Dragon Gods are simply the beings the elves warred against before declaring themselves gods.

If we take elven lore has half truths and solas being the dread wolf it means he  could move unseen among the gods of old and even is own and the ones they fought, see they made this puzzle with half truths and so on and gave us more pieces, don't think the old god's are the elves meerly the dragon's the old elven gods fought in the war, before Solas tricked the dragons and had to start working against his own after the murder.

Sorry for typos and errors, get the feeling there where a lot of different god-like beings once upona time and the elves warred against them, and some declared the,selves gods