161 réponses à ce sujet

[Stark777]

The Old Dragon Gods are simply the beings the elves warred against before declaring themselves gods.

If we take elven lore has half truths and solas being the dread wolf it means he  could move unseen among the gods of old and even is own and the ones they fought, see they made this puzzle with half truths and so on and gave us more pieces, don't think the old god's are the elves meerly the dragon's the old elven gods fought in the war, before Solas tricked the dragons and had to start working against his own after the murder.

Sorry for typos and errors, get the feeling there where a lot of different god-like beings once upona time and the elves warred against them, and some declared the,selves gods

 

 

Or maybe the war that made them kings and later gods was against the Titans. 

 

 

I think the Old Gods could be the Forgotten Ones, the ones that Solas supposedly trapped "into the abyss". At this point anything is possible, and yours is also a good theory

[DeadIgnition]

I absolutely agree with this. They've left little hints for the location of the Evanuris Gods/Elven Mage Leaders prison and it is most likely The Black/Golden City. It was stated that by Solas himself that certain parts of the fade were seperated and if you look at his painting there's the city floating within a hidden realm within the fade. A realm within a realm as stated in the Dragon Age Games.

 

It is likely that the Old gods are the same as Mythal(flemeth) calls Dumat(kieran) one of her own kin before taking his soul into her. It's not un-expected either as the DA team tend to put little hints in their work for players to pick up on.

 

It is my opinion based on what has been reference and shown aswell as hinted at, that elven gods used Dumats to breach the Black City as a way to spread the blight. In other words the Blight itself was a giant ''F you'' from The Elven Gods/ Mage leaders to Solas by having them destroy the world created by Dread Wolf.

 

Also there is a ton of lore to this within codex from DAO/DA2/DAI that slowly places these together. Plus as the world was originally connected to the fade which was why the Elves were immortal in the first place (solas mentions) then it's clear to say that if they weren't locked within the Black City which is mentioned by the Dwarves Codex (actual journal of finding black city) to be in the fade (DAI/DA2) - and were in fact underground they would not be immortal thus now dead and solas would not consider then still alive.

 

So as far as we know - The Black City is hidden within the fade (mentioned by Dwarven Lore and shown in Comic)

                                   - Solas stated that they were only immortal because of the fades existence. (Trespassers Ending)

                                   - We know that Dumat is Kin to Mythal (as stated when taking Kierans god soul)

                                   - We Know that the eluvians are connected to the fade crossroads

                                   - We know that the Evanuris are still alive and that connecting the fade with Thedas would likely free them 

                                     (as suggested by the inquisitor and solas - Trespasser Ending)

 

                                     Most likely assumption that can be made is that when Solas connects the two - that the barriers within the fade would likely

                                     break, giving the Old/Evanuris free reign. Hence they are in the fade locked away within a realm at the fades core.

Clearly the other Evanuris aren't very bright or very mature. XD

[Urzon]

One of my personal theories? Solas pulled something like the Forbidden Ones on the Evanuris.

 

When he created the Veil Solas was able to separate the Creators' spirits from their physical bodies. He then imprisoned their spirits either in the Black/Golden City or some other unreachable locked away spot in the Fade, and he trapped their physical bodies, which defaulted to their "divine" dragon form for whatever reason, deep underground. When the Magisters heard the "voices" of their gods, this was actually the Creators manipulating the humans to get what they want in the same vein the Forbidden Ones did, and they pulled the Magisters' strings to get them to invade the Black City to try and release their spirits from imprisonment.

 

Whether or not the Blight was some safety measure or some sort of side effect that was plaguing the Creators after their war with the Titans is anyone's guess.

[Jeniva]

sorry if some one's said this. 

I still don't understand why Solas hates grey wardens so much, because essentially they usually just kill archdemons and if your theory is correct they are killing the 'elven gods' who Solas seeks to destroy anyway. 
I get he hates them after their plan to go in and kill them all and possibly release them by accident in the process. 

[Heimdall]

I don't think it fits. For one, why would Solas and Mythal be so concerned about preserving them when they have no reason to and every reason to want them dead? They've told us outright that Mythal desires Vengeance and Solas has plans to neutralize them.

Besides, I'd prefer the Old Gods to be something else entirely.

The only thing that keeps bringing people back to this theory is that there are seven of them. That is the only indicator.

[myahele]

There was a time where Dragons ruled the sky, not elves. Dragons -according to Yavana- are the lifeblood of the world. So if the OG are the pinnacle/rulers of Great Dragons then I can see why Mythal and others would want them around. And instead of outright slaughter (lie Elgar'nan wanted) she managed to keep the dragons alive ...albeit imprisoned deep underground.

 

Since Dragons are sky, fire and lifeblood of the world then perhaps the "Sun" that Elgar'nan(and co) overthrew? 

 

Maybe shortly after the War between elves vs dragons that's when the Titans  were beginning to stirring? The earthquakes they cause were a threat to Elvhen building, but most importantly threatened to unleashed the imprisoned OG .... so that's the Evanuris actively hunted/killed the Titans and at the same time discovered that their blood (lyrium) had benefits.

[ModernAcademic]

I don't think the Old Gods are the Eluvanis we know of as the Creators of the Pantheon, but I can see them being the Forgotten Ones. The Forgotten Ones were the Elven Gods that waged war with the Creators before the Dread Wolf tricked them and sealed them deep within the earth just like he tricked and sealed the Creators into the sky.

 

Could the Forgotten Ones be Titans?

 

The whole Elven mythology bears close resemblance to the Greek one. The battle between the Forgotten Ones and the Elven Pantheon echoes the battle between Zeus leading the Olympus against the Titans. 

 

Titans are, after all, located deep underground, "sealed in prisons", where dwarves cannot reach and are capable of gifting living beings with magic with their blood (lyrium). And it is lyrium that makes any being hear their voice, their song, inside their minds.

[azarhal]

Could the Forgotten Ones be Titans?

 

I doubt it. Going by how Solas refer to the place in his personal quest, the Void is more like spirit afterlife where what remains of a spirit move to after they are destroyed and from where a "new" spirit will be born after some times (it usually doesn't remember its past). I'm pretty sure it is what Andraste call the wellsprings of souls in the Chant too. Once a spirit dies it is pretty much forgotten, it even ties in with Cole saying he has to remember Solas (he thinks he is going to die).

 

It might also mean that Andruil going there and coming back mad was about her dying and being reborn with most of her memory lost...and not so much about her going there willingly despite what the story says.

[LUIGI9393]

We have been shown that Dragons are often revered as gods (think about the disciples of Andraste, or the Hakkonites..).
By all ways Hakkon is the perfect prototype of what an old god could have been, it speaks, it is capable of magic, and is very powerful.
And he is just a High Dragon possessed by a strong spirit of war.

What if the Old Gods were Great Dragons (like the one Yavanna showed us, when she told us that before the veil the dragons ruled the sky) possessed by incredibly powerful spirits?

We know that Dragons are a perfect link to power, the blood of an High Dragon gives great strength and power, and we know that the blood of the Great Dragons was even more effective.
Aurelian Titus states that

Quote The last Tevinter magisters were close to reclaiming this power, and "All they needed was the blood of the Great dragons."^[2] He further states, "With it, I have tapped the power of gods."

 

My theory is that as Yavanna said in ancient times the Dragons ruled the sky, and among them there were some especially powerful Dragons, maybe like Hakkon, (the qun states that the Old gods were unto dragons what kings of old were unto men).


Then  started the war with the Elves: Solas says that the Evanuris ascended to godhood thanks to a war, as they were generals who led the people in times of great need.
Besides we know that the Forbidden ones were cast out because they fled when the people needed them.

So that's the thing: The Forbidden Ones were Elves just like the Evanuris, and they were forbidden to have a solid corporeal form, becoming demons in the process, and the Evanuris are the Generals who defeated and imprisoned these Dragons Kings of old.


And so they tapped the Dragon's power to ascend to Godhood.

Often we read the correlation "there are Seven old gods and Seven Evanuris so they are same", but in truth it's not correlation, it's causation "There are seven Evanuris BECAUSE there were seven old gods".


After the ascension the elven gods started creating their magical empire, but the quakes generated by the Titans were a danger for their works (works that could be intended both as their surface empire and their underground prisons for the old gods), so they waged war against the Titans.
In the war they discovered Lyrium, and used it to further empower themselves.

And then it comes the part where i'm not sure, the part with the most lack of infos: the Blight itself.

By now we know that the Blight has existed long before the Second Sin.
We know that in the Primeval Thaig the Blight has always existed, probably it was created at the times of the elven empire.
And we know that at some point the elves fled the deep roads in fear, sealing everything behind them.


For sure the Blight was born in the Deep Roads, maybe even in the Primeval Thaig itself, maybe by mixing lyrium and old gods blood to have a new more powerful magic source, or maybe it’s just some creepy weird failed experiment of Andruil done while se was in the Void (Aka the Deep Roads).



And, as last clue of the fact that old gods and evanuris are not the same beings there is an important banter of Solas

 

 

 

 

• Cassandra: Solas, if you do not mind me asking, what do you believe in?
• Solas: Cause and effect. Wisdom as its own reward, and the inherent right of all free willed people to exist.
• Cassandra: That is not what I meant.
• Solas: I know. I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter. But I do not think any of them were gods, unless you expand the definition of the word to the point of absurdity. I appreciate the idea of your Maker, a god that does not need to prove his power. I wish more such gods felt the same.
• Cassandra: You have seen much sadness in your journeys, Solas. Following the Maker might offer some hope.
• Solas: I have people, Seeker. The greatest triumphs and tragedies this world has known can all be traced to people.

Sorry for errors and typos.
 

[Commander of the Grey]

I remember a codex found in the fade stating that the old gods and the elven pantheon all went quiet at the same time.

Edit: It was written by someone from Tevinter, I believe.

[LUIGI9393]

That is often stated in dailsh lore, but( as now we know pretty well) dalish haven't even a clue about their real past.

[Enansal]

We have been shown that Dragons are often revered as gods (think about the disciple of Andraste, or the Hakkonite..).
By all ways Hakkon is the perfect prototype of what an old god could have been, it speaks, it is capable of magic, and is very powerfull.
And, he is just a High Dragon possessed by a strong spirit of war.

What if the Old Gods were Great Dragons (like the one Yavanna showed us, when she told us that before the veil the dragons ruled the sky) possessed by incredibly powerfull spirits?

We know that Dragons are a perfect link to power, the blood of an high Dragons gives great strenght and power, and we know that the blood of the Great Dragons was even more effective.
Aurelian Titus states that

Quote The last Tevinter magisters were close to reclaiming this power, and "All they needed was the blood of the Great dragons."^[2] He further states, "With it, I have tapped the power of gods."

 

My theory is that as Yavanna said in ancient times the Dragons ruled the sky, and among them there were some expecially powerfull Dragon, maybe like Hakkon, (the qun states that the Old gods were unto dragons what kings of old were unto men).


Then  started the war with the Elves: Solas says that the Evanuris ascended to goodhood thanks to a war, as they were generals who led the people in times of great need.
Besides we know that the Forbidden ones were casted out because they fleed when the people needed them.

So that's the thing: The Forbidden Ones were Elves just like the Evanuris, and they were forbidden to have a solid corporeal form, becoming demons in the process, and the Evanuris are the Generals who defeated and imprisoned these Dragons Kings of old.


And so they tapped the Dragon's power to ascend to Godhood.

Often we read the correlation "there are Seven old gods and Seven Evanuris so they are same", but in truth it's not correlation, it's causation "There are seven Evanuris BECAUSE there were seven old gods".


After the ascension the elven gods started to create their magical empire, but the quakes generated by the Titans were a danger for their works (works that could be inteded both as their surface empire and their undreground prisons for the old gods), so they waged war against the Titans.
In the war they discovered Lyrium, and used it to further empower themselves.

And then it cames the part where i'm not sure, the part with the most lack of infos: the Blight itslef.

By now we know that the Blight has existed long before the Second Sinn.
We know that in the Primeval Thaig the Blight has always existed, probably it was created at the times of the elven empire.
And we know that at some point the elves fled the deep roads in fear, sealing everything behind them.


For sure the Blight has born in the Deep Roads, maybe even in the Primeval Thaig itself, maybe by mixing lyrium and old gods blood to have a new more powerfull magic source, or maybe it’s just some creepy weird failed experiment of Andruil while se was in the Void (Aka the Deep Roads).



And, as last clue of the fact that old gods and evanuris are not the same beings there is an important banter of Solas

 

 

Sorry for errors and typos.
 

 

That is the best hypothesis on the Old Gods, great dragons, Evanuris, the blight and titans I've heard.

[Samahl na Revas]

We have been shown that Dragons are often revered as gods (think about the disciple of Andraste, or the Hakkonite..).
By all ways Hakkon is the perfect prototype of what an old god could have been, it speaks, it is capable of magic, and is very powerfull.
And, he is just a High Dragon possessed by a strong spirit of war.

What if the Old Gods were Great Dragons (like the one Yavanna showed us, when she told us that before the veil the dragons ruled the sky) possessed by incredibly powerfull spirits?

[...]

 

And so they tapped the Dragon's power to ascend to Godhood.

Often we read the correlation "there are Seven old gods and Seven Evanuris so they are same", but in truth it's not correlation, it's causation "There are seven Evanuris BECAUSE there were seven old gods".

 

 

Rereading is never a bad thing. And I agree with your post for the most part. Furthermore, I have a theory as to why the Old Gods and the Evanuris are so disjointed in the lore.

 

"The demons who would be gods,

Began to whisper to men from their tombs within the earth.

And the men of Tevinter heard and raised altars

To the pretender-gods once more"

— Threnodies 5

 

I share your notion that high dragons, such creature with a powerful spirit is the perfect prototype for what an Old god could of been. My theory furthers the idea "There are seven Evanuris BECAUSE there were seven old gods". Remember Telana and the spirit she attracted? The spirit: "Telana slept...I slept. The spirit Telan attracted lingered with a part of her. I know, I must be careful in my word choice. Then there is the Avaar's idea of souls being chosen to return. What if magic could force this idea? "Some souls--such as Caldan's--Are chosen to return...It is a rare honor. In order to return, an offering is made to Korth the Mountain-Father and buried beneath the body."

 

I think the draconic Old gods are what lingers of the Evanuris. Spirits shaped or influenced by them either pre-veil, in the event or after the veil's construction. I am not suggesting they are servants of the Evanuris. One has to wonder if there is more than the reason given as to why Corypheus placed a part of himself in the red-lyrium dragon. Either-way, I do not need to go any further since any further line of thinking falls somewhere with your theory. The Elves carried silvers of truth, the Dwarves preserve what is useful, they forgot.

 

As for the highlighted words demon and pretender-god in Threnodies   they are pejoratives, but I also think the author was accurately using these terms. Tombs is something I keep coming back to, therefore I cannot offer more than that it points to a location.  

[Captmorgan72]

Another theory to toss on the theory pile I guess. I've always believed the old gods to be powerful spirits that possessed high dragons. 

[Dean_the_Young]

One avenue of thought that people rarely consider is the Corypheus and his Lyrium Dragon. That could have implications for the elven gods, and the relationship between the Old Gods and the Elven Gods and their separation.

 

Suppose- just as a hypothetical- the Old Gods were spirit-companion-bond-partner-things for the Elven Gods? That the Old Gods were a connected but separate part of the Elven Gods- something like Hakkon, but bonded like the Lyrium Dragon to Corypheus?

 

 

There are a couple different elements in DAI we could use as a basis for consideration-

 

 

-There's a reoccuring theme that Tevinter magic is really elven magic reclaimed- not just Solas's orb, but magical techniques- but what's really relevant is Corypheus's survival- and how Solas reacts. Solas admits in Tresspasser that he had not expected Corypheus to learn the secret of effective immortality- which could suggest he himself knew what that secret was- and we learned from DAI that Corypheus's survival rests as much in his arch-demon as in the Blight. Were dragon-bond-pylacteries something the elven gods had?

 

-In the post-Adamant Solas and Cassandra companion dialogue, they talk on the nature of Corypheus's ArchDemon. That it was manufactured, yes- but Cassandra also gives a musing on wondering if that's all that the Old Gods were? Pets to beings no longer present? Solas plays coy that it's not quite like that- but considering how much DAI uses companion banter for foreshadowing exposition, and who's involved, it's likely an important lore-tease.

 

-Jaws of Hakkon gives an avenue towards spirit-empowered dragons- which seem relevant when discussing the ArchDemons. Dragons that are more than just dragons, beings approaching godhood but may well be artificial, like the elven gods.

 

-The unique sort of role and relationships that the ancient elves had with spirits- where spirits like the Forbidden Ones were considered more or less the same as residents as the elves, while Cole suggests the sort of being that hovers the balance between distinct races.

 

 

Put it all together in a rough theory, and-

 

-Elven Gods, aside from being shape shifters as Dragons themselves, also had dragon-phylacteries as part of their empowerment.

 

-Old Gods were those dragon-phylacteries, part of the elven gods' 'effective immortality' in which the Elven Gods put themselves into. Since the dragons were extensions of the god-mages, and dragonhood was proof of the divinity that the elven gods could use, the elves remember the god and not the spirit-beast sidekick. The Old God cults are more from the

 

-Old Gods are dragons in the same way Hakkon is a dragon- spirit-possession of a special sort on special beasts, which the Ancient Elves (masters of magic, friends with spirits, creater of monsters) would have been able to do.

 

-When Solas raised the veil, he did so in a way that separated the elven gods from their dragon-phylacteries. Elven gods- or at least their minds- trapped in the fade. Dragon-phylactery Old Gods, trapped in their prisons. This helps as the origin of the 'Dread Wolf trick' myth the Dalish have- even as the Old Gods gradually got confused for the Forgotten Ones and/or the Titans in the myth evolution's mess.

 

-As dreamers/through their Old Gods bonds, the Elven Gods reach out to the ancient tevinter magisters. They lead the Magisters to the Golden City, which has power/is a key to freeing themselves, and possibly pursuing revenge.

 

-The plan backfires. Magisters get blighted. The Golden City darkens.  This is the point that the Old Gods truly fall silent- whereas before, Corypheus had communed with Dumat even as the religion (and Tevinter) seemed to decline, afterwards no one seems to.

 

 

-The corrupted Old Gods phylacteries, when infected by the Blight, become the Archdemons.

 

 

Or something like that. There's a lot that's unknown- but it can fit with a number of other theories as well. Even the nature of Flemeth's motivation- Flemeth saving the Archdemons souls, but turning them to purposes the Elven Gods would not lie- in a 'revenge is living well' sort of path of spiting the elven gods by reclaiming/saving their Old God phylactery pets.

[leaguer of one]

No, they are not. The Old Gods are not trapped in the Fade, in fact it seems they were once able to freely communicate with their dreaming worshippers through the Fade. Their prisons are physical, underground. Also, Solas hates the Evanuris, yet he is horrified at the idea of the Grey Wardens killing the Old Gods. The truth is we don't know what the Old Gods are. We don't know what Solas or Mythal, neither of whom have any reason to preserve the Evanuris, know that makes preserving the Old Gods so important. I feel I should also note that Mythal is the only elven god whose imagery regularly focuses on dragons. The Qunari lore indicates they really were dragons, "to dragons what kings are to ordinary men" whatever that means. That's all we know for sure.

The only fact that people keep latching onto with this is that there are seven of them, but that doesn't mean much.

Solas trapped the elven gods in the heaven and the forgotten ones in the abyss.

[Aulis Vaara]

@dean Interesting theory, but Mythal died and her dragon is still around.

[kimgoold]

Many have theories that the Old God spirits were reborn when the Archdemons were slain, Sandal - June, Sera - Andruil, Kieran - Urethemial, and even Andraste - Dumat. Solas may fear all the Evanuris spirits being released/reborn by the Grey Wardens killing the Archdemons.

 

Edit: but I like the theory that the Evanuris bodies are imprisoned in Dragon form when Solas sprung his trap while their souls were in the fade or Uthenara (sleeping). These being wouldn't conceive of their slaves rising up little own killing their bodies while they slept. They may even have taken this form when they slept so they couldn't be injured?.

[Dean_the_Young]

@dean Interesting theory, but Mythal died and her dragon is still around.

 

And so is Mythal- in a sense. And she was betrayed by fellow super-mages who would be well placed to understand how the process worked, and plan their betrayal accordingly.

 

We know that soul-transfer immortality has it's limits- that a soul can be destroyed mid-transfer (the Wardens destroying ArchDemons), or that a soul can be magically manipulated and  guided in the transition between hosts (the Old God Baby).

 

If we work on 'elven gods had dragon-phylacteries' idea, the Mythal's survival alone really isn't proof or disproof. It's a vague idea at present- just one that I believe should be further considered.

[Dean_the_Young]

Many have theories that the Old God spirits were reborn when the Archdemons were slain, Sandal - June, Sera - Andruil, Kieran - Urethemial, and even Andraste - Dumat. Solas may fear all the Evanuris spirits being released/reborn by the Grey Wardens killing the Archdemons.

 

I buy into the Andraste-Dumat theory, but not the rest- the timelines don't add up for them. Andraste-as-Dumat has the weak but historical linkage to being an Old God Baby like Kieran. She was conceived about the time the First Blight ended, and the First Warden's armor of the one who slew dumat found its way to northern Ferelden, where Andraste grew. And obviously we know Kieran's conception story. But Sera and Sandal don't have that- not only do their dates not match up by centuries, but they have simpler, more direct answers.

 

The 'Sera is an Elven God' theory rests on Solas's interest and pushing her to look towards the Veil- but what we know of Solas then and with Tresspasser is that this interest is on the basis of the uniquely magical nature of elfyness, not something unique about her soul.. Solas's interest is more generic about elf-nature- and Sera's refusal of that- not past lives or Sera-specific. The line of 'you are the furthest from what you were meant to be' applies to his views of all elves- especially in light on his views of the loss of magic and the effects of the Veil. Meanwhile, Sera never demonstrates any magical aptitude or miraculous occurances that suggest magic in her nature besides the sort of being elf.

 

The Sandal theory depended on the more magical aspects of Sandal not making sense with what we knew of dwarves at the time- but The Descent gives us a new, and much more obvious, line of thought. Sandal can simply be a deep dwarf of some sort- the ancient part of the Deep Roads he was found in being protected from the Darkspawn by Titan influence- and his lyrium enchantment savant nature could be derived from Titan influence.

[Ranadiel Marius]

One avenue of thought that people rarely consider is the Corypheus and his Lyrium Dragon. That could have implications for the elven gods, and the relationship between the Old Gods and the Elven Gods and their separation.

Suppose- just as a hypothetical- the Old Gods were spirit-companion-bond-partner-things for the Elven Gods? That the Old Gods were a connected but separate part of the Elven Gods- something like Hakkon, but bonded like the Lyrium Dragon to Corypheus?

I wouldn't consider this to be rarely considered. For a long time I thought it to be the most likely possibility. However I think some dialogue from Tresspasser when combined with some other stuff we already knew makes this theory unlikely.

During Tresspasser we learn that the Evanuris were responsible for Mythal's murder (or at least Solas believes so, I personally have my doubts on that but getting off point). Now then when that is applied to the actions and attitudes of Solas and Mythal their towards the Old Gods, the Old Gods being related to the Evanuris makes no sense.

Mythal is shown to be extremely vengeful towards those who betrayed her. However towards the Old Gods, she seems to be very caring and Kieran's Old God soul seemed to want to go to Mythal.

Meanwhile Solas seems to believe no punishment is enough for the Evanuris, but he has no desire to harm the Old Gods.

So while the Old Gods probably date from the time of the Evanuris (based on their knowledge of Titans) I highly doubt the Old Gods are connected to the sealed Evanuris. My current working theory is that the Old Gods all have fragments of Mythal's soul in them and were placed to pacify something (possibly the Titans). At least that makes sense to me considering Mythal's connection to both the Earth and dragons.

[Ieldra]

That is why it is a theory. And come on, a solid one really!

No. It is a hypothesis. A hypothesis with some superficial plausibility and not a shred of real evidence. Real evidence, that would be something that connects the Old Gods to the elves in some way, such as their legends expressing an interest in the elves, or something that connects the Elven Gods to the Blight, or to the ancient Magisters. No such evidence exists. See also the post by David Gaider quoted above.

The only thing this hypothesis can claim is that it doesn't contradict existing lore. But then, there's always an infinite number of ways to explain any given set of facts.

Note that I appreciate the making of hypotheses about Thedas and its history. However, I think that in order to be taken seriously, they have to conform to certain standards of scholarship. Of course, anything that doesn't contradict existing lore can be made true by the writers, but if predicted correctly, it would most often be a lucky guess rather than a hypothesis developed in a methodically valid way.

Hypotheses made just as fun exercise are exempt from this requirement, but those who make them should not call them "solid".

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

I think Solas does not like the Grey Wardens because they fumble and stumble about quite a bit...and do not really understand what they are doing. It is their lack of understanding that he dislikes.

[Amne YA]

No.