161 réponses à ce sujet

[Erstus]

Eh, if you want believe that then sure.

All I'm saying is this - I'm not saying it's aliens, but....

Its aliens.

[duckley]

This is a fascinating conversation, but for someone who has not paid enough attention to the lore, is there any way to break this down in more simple terms? Aside from the World of Thedas, is there a good site that pulls the old history together? Old gods, new gods, forgotten ones, elven gods trapped above, trapped below.... yeesh....I am not that smart!

[Ariella]

This is a fascinating conversation, but for someone who has not paid enough attention to the lore, is there any way to break this down in more simple terms? Aside from the World of Thedas, is there a good site that pulls the old history together? Old gods, new gods, forgotten ones, elven gods trapped above, trapped below.... yeesh....I am not that smart!

The Wiki actually does a pretty good job of being up to date and accurate. Plus they have all the codex entries verbatim, which in and of itself, is useful.

http://dragonage.wik...Dragon_Age_Wiki

[robertthebard]

So what we have now is that 5 of these Elven false Gods, a revelation made by Solas in Tresspasser, that they weren't gods at all, are dead. 5 Blights ended. Blights are ended by killing the corrupted Old God. So only two left, all Solas has to do is wait for the darkspawn to dig up the last two Old Gods and the Wardens will have gotten Mythal's revenge, and he can burn the world for it by bringing down the Veil.

Excellent. I wonder, how long after that event until we get: But my Warden was on the moon when it happened, so he can totally come back for another game.

[LUIGI9393]

Many have theories that the Old God spirits were reborn when the Archdemons were slain, Sandal - June, Sera - Andruil, Kieran - Urethemial, and even Andraste - Dumat. Solas may fear all the Evanuris spirits being released/reborn by the Grey Wardens killing the Archdemons.

 

Edit: but I like the theory that the Evanuris bodies are imprisoned in Dragon form when Solas sprung his trap while their souls were in the fade or Uthenara (sleeping). These being wouldn't conceive of their slaves rising up little own killing their bodies while they slept. They may even have taken this form when they slept so they couldn't be injured?.

From what Solas says in Trespasser the Evanuris are still trapped in the beyond, nothing he has said suggests that some Evanuris are on the run in this world.

Besides, if the Evanuris where in Uthenera i doubt they could have posed a threat to the world, or kill Mythal.
They were pretty active for sure.
And if the Old Gods were the Evanuris sleeping bodies then he should rejoice for Wardens plot to kill them in their sleep, but on the contrary he goes nuts and yell at their plan.
Flemeth also should be ill disposed towards them, but as we saw she is more than determined to preserve the Old Gods spirits.

And last, Solas said that the two pantheon are not the same.




As for Sandal, Sera etc..., i find the "Sera's an old god" quite weak, and Descent opened many more avenues to explain Sandal's powers.

[Vargeisa]

As someone who pays no attention to lore at all, my theory is that all the old gods are just parts of Mythal.

 

When the elven gods killed Mythal they hid the pieces away.

 

That's why Flemeth wants to collect them all and Solas is really pissed off at people that want to kill the old gods.

 

Be gentle, I put a good part of a minute of my life into creating this theory.

 

 

Oh, and Solas probably created the blight as a means to locate all the pieces, the wanker.

[Merides]

As someone who pays no attention to lore at all, my theory is that all the old gods are just parts of Mythal.

 

When the elven gods killed Mythal they hid the pieces away.

 

That's why Flemeth wants to collect them all and Solas is really pissed off at people that want to kill the old gods.

 

Be gentle, I put a good part of a minute of my life into creating this theory.

 

 

Oh, and Solas probably created the blight as a means to locate all the pieces, the wanker.

 

Exactly what I was thinking. The Old Gods could be remnants of Mythala and taint would merely be a means for the Evanuris to try and destroy all that remains of her. That would be the best explanation as to why Solas hates the Wardens and why the taint targets them, not just a High Dragon. It would also give credit to everyones favourite subject - the origin of the Golden/Black City, as that could be the place where the Evanuris went to after being trapped in the fade, or at least its part of their legacy.

 

Or it could all be Solas doing, the taint, the old Gods - a way for him to destroy the world. If he has power over it, he could just kill the darkspawn afterwards. DA4 could be the next/big/last blight

[LUIGI9393]

Exactly what I was thinking. The Old Gods could be remnants of Mythala and taint would merely be a means for the Evanuris to try and destroy all that remains of her. That would be the best explanation as to why Solas hates the Wardens and why the taint targets them, not just a High Dragon. It would also give credit to everyones favourite subject - the origin of the Golden/Black City, as that could be the place where the Evanuris went to after being trapped in the fade, or at least its part of their legacy.

 

Or it could all be Solas doing, the taint, the old Gods - a way for him to destroy the world. If he has power over it, he could just kill the darkspawn afterwards. DA4 could be the next/big/last blight

I found this lore-inconsistent.

Firstly because only one Old God souls has been preserved, Urthemiel, while the others (Andoral,Toth,Dumath and Zazikel) have been destroyed by merging with the wardens souls, so i doubt they are really related to Mythal.


Then because Solas fears  the blight, he would never use it,he despise it.
If there is something Solas dreads that is the Blight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

• Vivienne: You disapprove of Corypheus using the magic of the blight, Solas?
• Solas: Every intelligent creature should.
• Vivienne: Yet you raise no objection to the Grey Wardens using blood magic?
• Solas: Blood magic is no worse than any other. Properly used. But the blight...
• Solas: The blight corrupts everything it touches. Those who believe themselves capable of using it safely are mad.
• Vivienne: I understand that Grey Wardens are connected in some way to the blight.
• Solas: Then that explains why we saw no old men at Adamant.

 

 

• Solas: The Grey Wardens allow elves and dwarves into their ranks?
• Varric: Qunari too I imagine. They don't care about titles or blood, just stopping the Blight.
• Solas: A pity they do it so badly then.
• Blackwall: Would you care to repeat that?
• Solas: Argue if you like, your fight against the darkspawn is noble, but what progress have you made?
• Varric: Give them some credit, it's not like you can study the Blight safely. I may not like everything they've done, but without the wardens, we'd all be blighted by now.
• Solas: They've bought us some time, I will grant them th

• Vivienne: Corypheus is a complex creature. To draw upon so many different sources of power.
• Vivienne: He has his own magic, he draws from the blight, the artifact he carries is elven...
• Vivienne: And now, he uses a demon to create a false Calling to fool the mages.
• Solas: The false Calling was blight magic. The demon merely amplified its power.
• Vivienne: This ancient magister is like a man drinking from three wineglasses at once.
• Solas: And one of the glasses is poisoned.

[In Exile]

Do the supposed genders of the two match up?

[ApostleinTriumph]

We know that in past, dragons were worshipped as gods in Thedas...What if the Evanuris wanted to exploit this, and chose to manipulate Tevinter magisters into coming to Black City (I have a feeling Black City is Arlathan, by the way) and free them?

 

Also, about Blights....I have been thinking about it and I have a theory on how they might have begun. We know that Blight is connected to Red Lyrium. We know that Titans blood is regular Lyrium. And we know that Lyrium is useful to enhance a mage's magical powers. And we also know that magisters used a lot of lyrium and blood magic in order to enter the Fade physically.. So in their search for more and more Lyrium, what if they dug into an area and stumbled upon a corrupted/dead Titan and used its blood (red lyrium) in order to enhance their powers? And those corrupted would kill the rest when they are in the Fade, spread the blight to the rest and pretty much start the Blights?

[LUIGI9393]

Do the supposed genders of the two match up?

Nope, Urthemiel was a male, the only female old god as far as we know was Razikale.

[myahele]

I don't think the Evanuris = Old Gods simply because she spares Kieran/Urthemiel despite her saying "there'll be a reckoning in the heavens" which is where the evanuris are and who're also the ones to murder mythal

[Cantina]

I've had a sneaking suspicion that the Old Gods and the Elven Gods are one and the same. I could go into much greater detail but that would take a lot of time.

 

What I find most fascinating and having a small piece of connecting this theory is: Elven temples have dragon statues within them. Mythal's Temple certainly has quite a few.

 

 

 

[Mlady]

I've had a sneaking suspicion that the Old Gods and the Elven Gods are one and the same. I could go into much greater detail but that would take a lot of time.

 

What I find most fascinating and having a small piece of connecting this theory is: Elven temples have dragon statues within them. Mythal's Temple certainly has quite a few.

 

 

 

 

Mythal could turn into a dragon. We saw her dragon statue. The one punished for taking the form only a Divine could have was a dragon based on the paintings of a dragon running from elves chasing it.

[Cantina]

Who's to say the other Elven Gods could not turn into dragons either?

[Mlady]

Who's to say the other Elven Gods could not turn into dragons either?

 

The form of the Divine would mean the form of the God most likely. Meaning the Evanuris could use their mage power like Flemeth and Morrigan do and become a dragon. I remember Flemeth teased Hawke and said she could never become one. Meaning she was of the people that were not her people. Also when the Veil was formed not only did it silence the Evanuris as said in Trespasser, but the Old gods went silent too. We know the dragons once ruled the skies. There's a link in there somewhere.

 

The Old Gods are not the Evanuris but linked somehow.

[robertthebard]

I've had a sneaking suspicion that the Old Gods and the Elven Gods are one and the same. I could go into much greater detail but that would take a lot of time.
 
What I find most fascinating and having a small piece of connecting this theory is: Elven temples have dragon statues within them. Mythal's Temple certainly has quite a few.
 
 
 

Wow. So the dragon we summon to Mythal's altar must be an Old God too, right? Assuming the Inquisitor drinks from the well? It seems to me that I've already been involved in a rather long debate with someone that just because something is a dragon does not mean it's an Old God. It's also important to note that dragons weren't always extinct. Cass' family is known for dragon hunting after all, and who knows how far back in history that goes. However, at one time, they were more common than they were at the beginning of the dragon age, and it's just as likely that these depictions of dragons are Old Gods in the same way that the dragon we summon at the altar is; they're not.

[Heimdall]

The form of the Divine would mean the form of the God most likely. Meaning the Evanuris could use their mage power like Flemeth and Morrigan do and become a dragon. I remember Flemeth teased Hawke and said she could never become one. Meaning she was of the people that were not her people. Also when the Veil was formed not only did it silence the Evanuris as said in Trespasser, but the Old gods went silent too. We know the dragons once ruled the skies. There's a link in there somewhere.

The Old Gods are not the Evanuris but linked somehow.

Actually codex entries in the Temple of Razikale in Jaws of Haakon indicate their God went silent at a much later date. Others indicate the gods only went silent after the start of the First Blight.

I also feel I should note that only Flemeth uses dragons as her primary iconography. I think the link may be specific to her.

[Mlady]

Actually codex entries in the Temple of Razikale in Jaws of Haakon indicate their God went silent at a much later date. Others indicate the gods only went silent after the start of the First Blight.

I also feel I should note that only Flemeth uses dragons as her primary iconography. I think the link may be specific to her.

 

I'm beginning to think something else is involved. Cole said when "it" woke everything fell in the Black City. That doesn't sound like the Veil to me. The Chantry would think the Maker woke but I think something's in there, sealed away.

 

And then there's this:

 

http://dragonage.wik...ldauran's_Claim

[Daerog]

Maybe they are the Forbidden Ones, Forgotten Ones, but it is doubtful they are the other Evanuris. I don't think they are connected. I don't desire everything to be connected so easily.

 

(Forgot about that banter on the GWs from Solas... ugh, makes me start to like him less... Really? They save the world the only way the know how, with ancient beings like Solas and Flemeth not helping them understand the enemy that they blindly fight to save their world, and Solas just dismisses them like that? What a jerk. They have their problems, but they shouldn't be disregarded like that.)

[Jaison1986]

I'm beginning to think something else is involved. Cole said when "it" woke everything fell in the Black City. That doesn't sound like the Veil to me. The Chantry would think the Maker woke but I think something's in there, sealed away.

 

And then there's this:

 

http://dragonage.wik...ldauran's_Claim

 

The elven gods? The black city is after all the only place in the fade that never changes place, and none dare approach it. Sounds like the perfect prision.

 

I personally believe the forgotten ones are the old gods. It would match with the theory that Andruil was the true starter of the blight, since tales say she went to the void, were the forgotten ones dwelled and found a power there that drove her mad, and she spread great plagues during her war for dominance. 

[Mlady]

The elven gods? The black city is after all the only place in the fade that never changes place, and none dare approach it. Sounds like the perfect prision.

 

I personally believe the forgotten ones are the old gods. It would match with the theory that Andruil was the true starter of the blight, since tales say she went to the void, were the forgotten ones dwelled and found a power there that drove her mad, and she spread great plagues during her war for dominance. 

 

Oh yeah I think that the gods are locked in there. The Black City makes me think it was a Blighted elven City (possibly Arlathan since a codex states the gates of the city were open wide for elf coming home and the Black City has those gates too) after the taint spread. We know what it did to The Western Approach. Black sand with green mist. The City's crumbled walls have that color.

 

How does Dumat fit into this? Was it really Dumat or someone pretending that led Cory and the rest?

 

And I agree about Andruil. It was my theory too for a long time before Trespasser confirmed more stuff.

[Jaison1986]

Oh yeah I think that the gods are locked in there. The Black City makes me think it was a Blighted elven City (possibly Arlathan since a codex states the gates of the city were open wide for elf coming home and the Black City has those gates too) after the taint spread. We know what it did to The Western Approach. Black sand with green mist. The City's crumbled walls have that color.

 

How does Dumat fit into this? Was it really Dumat or someone pretending that led Cory and the rest?

 

And I agree about Andruil. It was my theory too for a long time before Trespasser confirmed more stuff.

 

Interesting, I never took in consideration that the western approach could be the ruins of Arlathan.

 

Dumat might have just been the name of one of the forgotten ones. Perhaps... perhaps it was not the taint they wanted the magisters to find? Maybe it was the elven gods trapped in there they wanted to be found by the magisters? After all, tales say Solas tricked both the elven gods and the forgotten ones. What if they wanted the elven gods freed so they could extract revenge on Solas? 

 

I know it sounds far fetched, but what isn't when it comes to Thedas ancient history?

[Mlady]

Interesting, I never took in consideration that the western approach could be the ruins of Arlathan.

 

Dumat might have just been the name of one of the forgotten ones. Perhaps... perhaps it was not the taint they wanted the magisters to find? Maybe it was the elven gods trapped in there they wanted to be found by the magisters? After all, tales say Solas tricked both the elven gods and the forgotten ones. What if they wanted the elven gods freed so they could extract revenge on Solas? 

 

I know it sounds far fetched, but what isn't when it comes to Thedas ancient history?

 

No I don't think the Approach is Arlathan. I think that what the taint did to it is similar to how the City looks in the Fade. Solas talks of the City and it does sound golden, so blighted would make it all black and green like the sand in the Approach when the Darkspawn came out of it.

 

I am beginning to wonder if the Old Gods were not even involved and the Magisters were tricked. Someone wanted to be freed and maybe when they entered the City they were blighted because they were at the heart of it.

 

We know Solas was mistaken for the Maker at one point, so maybe this trickster thing was not Solas but one of the other Forgotten Ones and he took the blame?

[LUIGI9393]

Also when the Veil was formed not only did it silence the Evanuris as said in Trespasser, but the Old gods went silent too. We know the dragons once ruled the skies. 

That's unlikely: the creation of the Veil predates the Tevinter Imperium, and there are no sources about the old gods before the Imperium (the first  account we have is the story of Thalsian meeting Dumat in the fade, at the time of the Neomerian Kingdom).
Besides, the voice of the old gods has been heard for a millennium after the foundation fo the empire.

 

 

 

Corypheus memories.

 

 

 

I recited the old verses. How easily they come. Even after so long a slumber. Yet still I do not feel the presence ofDumat - hear no whispers, no commands. Silence has fallen.

 

Trenodies

 

 

 

Now, with their Father's eye elsewhere, the firstborn
At last created something new:
Envy. They looked upon the living world and the favored
Sons and daughters there, covetous of all they were.
Within their hearts grew
An intolerable hunger.
Until, at last, some of the firstborn said:
"Our Father has abandoned us for these lesser things.
We have power over heaven.
Let us rule over earth as well
And become greater gods than our Father."

The demons appeared to the children of earth in dreams
And named themselves gods, demanding fealty.


...No matter their power, their triumphs,
The mage-lords of Tevinter were men
And doomed to die.
Then a voice whispered within their hearts,
Shall you surrender your power
To time like the beasts of the fields?
You are the Lords of the earth!
Go forth to claim the empty throne
Of Heaven and be gods.

Canticle of silence

 

 

 

 

Codex entry of the old gods

 

 

 

Regardless of the truth, legend maintains that even from their underground prisons, the Old Gods were able to whisper into the minds of men. The Archon Thalsian, first of the Magisters, who claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, used the blood magic Dumat taught to him to attain incredible power in Tevinter and declare himself the ruler of an Empire. In return, he established the first temples worshipping the Old Gods, and the dragons became equated everywhere with imperial power.

And here in World of Thedas volume 1 is stated that the old gods have been active for long after the fall of the elven civilization.

 

 

 

RELIGION IN TEVINTER

OLD GODS

The Old Gods were a set of seven dragon deities worshiped by

the majority of humans in Thedas prior to the rise of the Chantry.

Worship of the Old Gods first gained popularity in the ancient

Tevinter lmperium. As the lmperium's influence spread across

Thedas, so too did worship of these dragons. Many elves enslaved

by the lmperium were forced to worship them instead of their

own gods.

Two main factors contributed to the decline of Old God

worship: the rise of Blights, blamed on Old Gods that awakened

as blighted Arch demons, and the spread of the Chantry, which

taught that the Old Gods were spirits that betrayed the Maker.

Archdemons are said to be the physical form of the Old Gods.



History

 The legendary Thalsian was the first Dreamer. 

communicated with and learned blood magic from the Old

God Dumat after encountering him in visions of what is now

assumed to be the Fade. The Neromenian tribes, who had worshipped

fallen heroes reborn as dragons, adopted Dreamers as their leaders, and began to instead worship the Dreamers'

gods, also as dragons. By the t ime the lmperium unified under

the Dreamer Darinius, the first Arch on, worship of the Old

Gods was ubiquitous. Darinius established the magistcrium

from the priesthood of these seven gods. Thalsian was named

an honorary Archon.

 

 

 

 

The old gods went silent at some point,after the first blight, but we are talking of millennia after the creation of the veil.


World of Thedas, vol 1, page 155

 

 

The people ofTevinter turned to the remaining Old Gods for

help against Dumat, but received only silence. Believing themselves

betrayed, many in the lmperium turned on the Old Gods.